Convince me there is non-alcoholic wine in the Bible/communion

There are sins committed by many in the Bible that are not condemned in the story, but we know by reading the rest of Scripture that they are sins. The Bible makes it clear that drunkeness is a sin.

As for the story of Noah, and Ham:
This is one of the most misunderstood stories in the Bible.

You can check out my explanation on what really happened in this story here (if you are interested):
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...shed-light-on-hams-sin-in-noahs-tent.8052005/



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We are allowing Ocean Spray to define God’s word?

... and how many cups of juicy-juice® does it take before you personally aren't sure if you're drinking whiskey or cider?

you think Christ deceived them?
that He began His ministry with a lie?

the governor of the feast at the Cana wedding is not described in scripture as someone who doesn't understand how to do his job.

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

To say that Jesus made water into fermented wine would be false. Six water pots of stone would have been about 72 to 162 gallons of wine, which would have got everyone drunk that was there. If this wine was fermented then Jesus broke the law and was a sinner. We know this is not so because our Lord is sinless and that Jesus made new wine, which is grape juice.

New wine was available to kings and pharaohs, those who had a cupbearer. New wine is made by squeezing grapes and catching the juice with a cup.

Genesis 40:11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.

what law?
how many people were there?
who forces them all to drink every last drop immediately?
does everyone who holds a marriage supper commit sin by doing so?
does Deuteronomy 14:26 me an God is a sinner?

previously covered. Acts 2:13-15 contradicts that presumption, and John 2 does not call it 'new wine' regardless

Are you really interested in the truth? With comments like these it makes me wonder.
My point was based on reality. A reality you know nothing about, and all you can do is mock that reality.
Are you also a Democrat and for the woke agenda?


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reality is that John 2 indicates an amount of good wine dulls the senses such that it is difficult to discern afterwards good from poor wine, and that an expert identified the miraculous wine as exactly that kind of good wine.

are you a republican, that you exchange actual facts for your own imaginary ones?

I believe the Bible teaches that there is righteous deception and bad deception.
Bad deception involves flat out lies, and good deception does not.

While most dictionaries give us the negative understanding of the word "deception," there is one that gives us a more broad term.

Cambridge English Dictionary

• Deception: “The act of hiding the truth, especially to get an advantage.”

Righteous Deception as Concealment without Falsehood

• Deception, in its broadest sense, involves causing someone to believe something that may not represent the full truth. However, this doesn’t necessarily mean stating something untrue. One can truthfully present part of the information or focus on a particular aspect while concealing other truths.
• This type of deception doesn’t require a direct lie. Instead, it relies on selective disclosure, where the truth that is presented is accurate but incomplete. For example, highlighting one truth might give a specific impression while leaving out information that would change that impression.

Are there examples of this in Scripture? Yes, the battle of Ai.

In Joshua 8, we learn of an example of Deceptive Warfare Tactics. Joshua uses an ambush strategy to capture the city of Ai. Here’s how the strategy unfolds:

1. Setting an Ambush: Joshua positions a group of soldiers behind the city at night, hidden and ready to attack. This ambush force would wait until the main Israelite army drew Ai's defenders out of the city.
2. Feigning Retreat: The next day, Joshua leads the main force toward Ai, as they did in their first unsuccessful attempt. When the men of Ai see the Israelites, they assume it’s a repeat of the initial failed attack and pursue them.
3. Drawing Out the Defenders: As the men of Ai chase Joshua and his troops, they leave the city defenseless. Every man leaves the city, making it vulnerable.
4. Springing the Trap: At God’s command, Joshua signals the ambush force, who enter the unguarded city, set it on fire, and then position themselves to block any return of Ai’s defenders.
5. Surrounding the Enemy: Seeing the smoke, the men of Ai realize they’ve been trapped. With the ambush force now attacking from the rear and Joshua’s main force turning to fight, Ai’s army is surrounded and defeated.

This tactic of deception—feigning a retreat to lure the enemy out and then launching an ambush—is a classic military strategy. It showcases not only Joshua’s leadership but also how Israel relied on God’s guidance to ensure victory after repenting of earlier sins.

In another story in the book of Joshua, Joshua even sends in two spies into the city of Jericho.
To be a spy involves the art of deception.

The Righteous Deception of Jesus in John 10:
(where no Lie is Told):

In John 10, Jesus interacts with the Jewish leaders in a way that is both strategic and wise, choosing His words to reveal one truth while concealing another. This moment, where Jesus states, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34, KJV), reflects a type of “righteous deception.” Rather than openly declaring His divine identity, Jesus presents an alternative truth from Scripture, directing His audience’s understanding without denying His true nature.

This approach serves a larger purpose: it allows Jesus to protect the timing of His mission, ensure the fulfillment of prophecy, and give His audience the opportunity to ponder His identity without forcing an immediate confrontation.

1. Jesus’ Wisdom in Avoiding Premature Accusation
The Jewish leaders accuse Jesus of blasphemy, saying, "because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:33). They understood His statements as an assertion of divinity, but rather than affirming this directly, Jesus responds with a reference to Psalm 82:6, which states, "I have said, Ye are gods." By using this Scripture, Jesus presents a truth that focuses on humanity's honored role in God's eyes, thereby addressing their accusation without fully disclosing His divine nature.

This tactic doesn’t negate Jesus’ divinity but rather deflects the accusation in a way that prevents an immediate charge of blasphemy, which could lead to His stoning. Jesus knows that His mission—to die on the cross for humanity's sins—requires precise timing, according to God’s plan. In using this selective revelation, He chooses wisdom over confrontation, thus protecting His ministry’s ultimate purpose.

2. A True Statement that Conceals the Fullness of Truth
When Jesus says, "Ye are gods," He is referencing a truth from the Scriptures that was already familiar to the Jewish leaders. In Psalm 82, the term “gods” refers to judges or rulers whom God had appointed to carry out His justice. By highlighting this, Jesus subtly shifts their attention to a different understanding of divinity, one that they could accept without viewing Him as a threat. This redirection is a form of righteous deception, where Jesus uses an existing truth to shield the fullness of His divine nature.

This concealment does not amount to a lie but serves as a measured and strategic response. The Jewish leaders, through their unbelief, were not prepared to grasp Jesus’ divine identity fully, so He wisely redirects them to a related scriptural truth. His intent is not to mislead maliciously but to reveal Himself progressively, guiding them toward the full understanding of His identity in a manner aligned with God’s plan.

There is also truth masked by implication. Meaning, the words are entirely true from the speaker's perspective but carry a subtle ambiguity, allowing the listener to interpret it incorrectly if they don’t pay careful attention or listen more closely. I believe this is a tactic that Abraham and Rahab had employed. Most in Christianity just believe they lied, but I don't believe this is the case. Only those who are looking to defend the righteous will see it. Most who are quick to pick up stones to cast at others or slander them will not understand the truth of what I say here. Scripture is deep many times, and it requires looking at things carefully by prayer many times. For example, I am sure many Christians started out in their faith believing that they had to follow entirely both the Old Covenant laws, and the New Covenant laws. But with further study, this is simply not the case. We are New Covenant believers and we follow primarily the New Testament or New Covenant.

I hope this helps, and may God bless you.


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Well, I believe there was some slight dulling of the senses because the wine they drank was intoxicating but it was only mildly intoxicating in the fact that it was diluted with some level of water as per the practice in that region. The wine that Jesus made was pure grape juice (unfermented wine) and they would not have noticed the lack of alcohol content because the wines in those days are not like the wines sold in stores in the USA today. We cannot force our culture or way of understanding upon that time. We do not walk around with sandals whereby we need to have our feet washed from the dirt, etc.

Ah, this explains things.
Am I Republican? Well, while I lean Republican very heavily, this does not mean I agree with everything on their side exactly.
Currently, I believe the standing GOP to take office will be more helpful for our country. The president elect is already making discussions to help bring about peace between Russia and Ukraine. Putin is willing to talk. Thousands of illegal criminals have come into our country and have caused major problems like in Aurora, etcetera. Woke ideology promoted by the extreme radical Left has allowed schools to be brainwashing centers, which has led many Christians to be forced to homeschool so as to stick to conservative values as taught in the Bible.

You know, it is funny. Virginia Mollenkott worked on the NIV as a consultant. She received a fundamentalist education (with fundamentalist credentials), and yet in her book called “Sensuous Spirituality” she states how she has been set free from the King James Bible. When she discovered this, she ended up divorcing her husband over her new sexual identity and went on teaching. She also claimed that God, angels, and a host of other spirits began to speak to her audibly when she made the claim to be set free from the King James Bible. Oh, and on a side note, the claim that she had been fired is false because Mellonkott herself claimed that she dared anyone to bring forth the proof she was fired.

Anyway, she went liberal and woke, and it destroyed her.


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By no means.

Deuteronomy 14:26 says:


Strong drink, or strongly intoxicating wine, could indeed be purchased by the Israelites. Jesus even describes the need to put new wine into new wineskins, explaining that old wineskins would burst if filled with fermenting wine due to the pressure. This implies that the wine would continue to ferment and expand. However, when it came to drinking, the Israelites would typically dilute strong drink or wine with water before consuming it. Undiluted strong drink was generally reserved for instances where someone was in severe pain, such as from an injury or flesh wound.

We also learn the following truth in Deuteronomy, as well.

Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God provided no grape juice or intoxicating drink in the wilderness so Israel would know Him.
Deuteronomy 32:33 - The enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents compared to the Israelites' "pure blood of the grape" (verse 14).



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Well, Paul says the wine to be used at Passover is alcoholic...

First of all it is not the Lord's supper, it is the Passover

1Co 11:20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.

1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
1Co 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
1Co 11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

What night was He betrayed?

Luk 22:15 Then He said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;

So, was the wine alcoholic?

1Co 11:20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.
1Co 11:21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.

Ever been drunk on grape juice?

In ancient times, including among the Israelites and in Greco-Roman culture, wine was commonly diluted with water, often in a ratio of about 1 part wine to 2 or 3 parts water, or even more. This practice was meant to make the wine safer and more refreshing to drink, and also to avoid excessive intoxication, as the undiluted wine was usually stronger.

However, even diluted wine could lead to intoxication if consumed in large enough quantities. While the alcohol content would be lower in a diluted mixture, repeated or excessive drinking could still result in drunkenness. So, while it would take more effort and a higher volume to become intoxicated, it was certainly possible to become drunk on diluted wine, especially if one drank steadily over a period of time.

But make no mistake. This wine in 1 Corinthians 11:21 is not like the wines sold in stores here in the United States. It is nowhere near as strong in alcoholic content. Generally during this time, wine was used to sanitize water. This is not a problem here in the US currently.

However, Daniel talks about how knowledge will increase. This knowledge has led us to learn that strong alcoholic beverages does act as a poison and it does destroy our brain if consumed regulary, etcetera. While I am sure the Israelite version of wine that was diluted was fine if one drank one small glass at the Lord's supper, it does not mean we have a license to drink known poisons like in today's alcoholic industry. Alcohol is a by-product of death. What Jesus made at the wedding was 100% grape juice (unfermented wine). We are told in Scripture to be sober in many places. I believe to drink the pure blood of the grape is the best choice if you are able.


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On a further note, I believe the Bible condemns drinking strong intoxicating beverages socially. The only exception was if somebody had a flesh wound or major injury from battle or something.


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I don’t believe that is what the Bible says. In Proverbs 31:6-7, it gives specific guidance on the limited, compassionate use of strong drink, but this is not an endorsement of alcohol for coping with everyday grief or hardship. The passage says:


Here, strong drink is specifically intended for those “ready to perish”—those severely wounded in battle or by some horrible accident, facing imminent death. In such situations, strong drink was given to alleviate pain before death.

Wine, on the other hand, was diluted with water by the Israelites, making it far weaker than what we consider wine today. When given to those “of heavy hearts,” it served as a small gesture of comfort in sorrow, rather than as a means of escape.

This specific guidance aligns with the Bible’s broader teachings, which warn clearly against drunkenness and excess. Scripture teaches that drunkenness is sinful, leading to a loss of control and separation from God’s ways:

• Ephesians 5:18 warns: “And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit.”
• Proverbs 20:1 states: “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.”
• Galatians 5:19-21 lists “drunkenness” among the “works of the flesh,” saying those who practice such things “shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 also warns that “drunkards” will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Thus, Proverbs 31:6-7 acknowledges the compassionate use of strong drink in extreme cases but upholds the Bible’s consistent message on sobriety and self-control, clearly denouncing drunkenness as a sin.

The Bible says believers are made "kings and priests."

• Revelation 1:6
  "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (KJV)
• Revelation 5:10
  "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." (KJV)

And Scripture says wine is not for kings, and strong drink is not for princes:

"It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted." (Proverbs 31:4-5) (KJV).

Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Jesus is the prince of Peace.
Jesus walked in such a way as an example for us to follow.


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Psalms 104: 14 to 15 He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for people to cultivate - bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladden's human hearts, oil to make their faces shine, and bread that sustains their hearts.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn by His right hand and by His mighty arm: "Never again will I give your grain as food for your enemies, and never again will foreigners drink the new wine for which you have toiled; but those who harvest it will eat it and praise the Lord, and those who gather the grapes will drink it in the courts of my sanctuary."

Jesus made over a hundred gallons of wine in his first recorded miracle in the Gospel of John. If it was such a sin to drink, I doubt very much that He would have done that.

Well, one of the blessings to be enjoyed at the Feast of Tabernacles is strong drink...

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

God condemns drunkenness but social drinking is perfectly acceptable. Wonder why Christ was accused of being a winebibber?