Convince me there is non-alcoholic wine in the Bible/communion

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Jun 30, 2015
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#83
Believe it or not, there are self-proclaimed Christians who are Democratic (or Left) and for the woke agenda.


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Once again you avoid the issue. You use the accusation as an insult instead of dealing respectfully with those who disagree with you. Your behaviour is reprehensible.
 
Jun 30, 2015
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#84
I have discussed this topic on other forums over the past decade before. I believe it is worth a discussion and I am constantly learning on the topic as I revisit the topic with a fresh perspective. For example, my old position on 1 Corinthians 11:21 was that it was not referring to alcoholic wine but grape juice, but I now see this as referring to the Israelite wine that is unfermented wine diluted by water.
Why would anyone dilute unfermented "wine"? That's silly. Do you think they found the grape juice a bit strong for their liking? Do you think there wasn't enough so they mixed it to make it "go farther"?

Granted, I believe the Lord made grape juice with his miracle because Jesus' shed blood symbolizes life and not death. If you know anything about alcoholic beverages, you know it is a process of death and not life. The grape juice symbolizes life because it is pure and good for you.
You can believe whatever you like, but inventing beliefs about what Scripture says is not believing Scripture.
 
Jul 31, 2013
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#86
Jesus' shed blood symbolizes life and not death.
He shed His blood dying
our life and joy and peace in Christ comes only through death - in Him we have died, because He died - and this death produced a new life, because He also rose.

i would argue that the strongest symbolic position is actual wine, not mere fresh grape squeezings falsely called wine.

mere welche's® is a denial of the cross.
 
May 31, 2013
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#87
Jdg 9:13 But the vine said to them, 'Should I cease my new wine, Which cheers both God and men, And go to sway over trees?'

Grape juice cheers God and man?
 
Jul 31, 2013
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#88
Jdg 9:13 But the vine said to them, 'Should I cease my new wine, Which cheers both God and men, And go to sway over trees?'

Grape juice cheers God and man?
Isaiah 65:8​
Thus says the LORD:
"As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one says,
'Do not destroy it, for a blessing is in it,'
so will I do for My servants' sake, that I may not destroy them all."
grapes ferment into wine naturally on the vine, with no human intervention whatsoever. yeast abounds on earth, we make wine here at home from blueberries adding nothing but honey. God has already covered the berries with yeast; nothing is lacking.
 
Apr 29, 2012
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#89
Look beyond this question to the meaning of it. Wine or grape juice is similar in color to blood, which is the point of Jesus' taking wine. But most churches use grape juice because of the need to care for those who may tend to be an alcoholic.
like me
 
Jul 3, 2015
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#90
He shed His blood dying
our life and joy and peace in Christ comes only through death - in Him we have died, because He died - and this death produced a new life, because He also rose.

i would argue that the strongest symbolic position is actual wine, not mere fresh grape squeezings falsely called wine.

mere welche's® is a denial of the cross.
Hebrews 9:16-17 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
 
May 31, 2013
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#91
Look beyond this question to the meaning of it. Wine or grape juice is similar in color to blood, which is the point of Jesus' taking wine. But most churches use grape juice because of the need to care for those who may tend to be an alcoholic.

We have some alcoholics in our church. The amount of wine in the little cup is so small that they are not affected when taking the Passover.
 
Jul 31, 2013
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#92
Look beyond this question to the meaning of it. Wine or grape juice is similar in color to blood, which is the point of Jesus' taking wine. But most churches use grape juice because of the need to care for those who may tend to be an alcoholic.
like the yeast that by their death add the alcohol to the wine which gladdens the heart and is able to ease pain, unless Christ had died, we would not have the joy of salvation in Him.

Luke 9:22​
The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
i really don't see how simple fresh squeezed berries can fulfill the typology
 
Nov 28, 2023
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#93
And so, once again, this discussion devolves into two camps: those who correctly understand that Scripture does not demand complete abstinence, and those who believe that abstinence is so highly recommended that they can't comprehend that "new wine" is anything but fresh grape juice.

For the record, Deuteronomy 14:26 says "Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice." (NIV)

And for the KJV-only crowd:

"And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,"

Now, since Scripture is clear that alcohol IS NOT forbidden, have a drink (whatever you prefer), stop arguing about it, and enjoy the weekend.
Like many words in the Bible, they can have different meanings depending on the context. “New wine” can refer to either fresh unfermented grape juice like the “new wine” found in the cluster of the grape (Isaiah 65:8), or it can refer to newly fermented wine that is diluted with water like in Hosea 4:11 (which is mildly intoxicating). Context determines the meaning.

As for my mention 1 Corinthians 11:21 before: Well, it has been a while since I did this study. I was wrong on my initial response here on this verse. My old position on this verse is correct. Based on my previous study, the word “drunken” here is not referring to intoxication like we would understand this word today in this particular context. It is in reference to being fully satiated by a particular beverage.

First, the context demands that Paul is referring to “drunken” (μεθύω) (methyō) as not referring to intoxication because the following verse, we read how Paul says, “What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?” (1 Corinthians 11:22). Obviously Paul is not encouraging them to get intoxicated in their homes instead.

Second, we see in Old English literature that “drunken” does not always mean intoxicated. For example, Richard Baxter, The Reformed Pastor (1656) said, "Let us not be as children that are drunken with milk, who know not the worth of it because they have had it in abundance."


 
Jun 30, 2015
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#94
Like many words in the Bible, they can have different meanings depending on the context. “New wine” can refer to either fresh unfermented grape juice like the “new wine” found in the cluster of the grape (Isaiah 65:8), or it can refer to newly fermented wine that is diluted with water like in Hosea 4:11 (which is mildly intoxicating). Context determines the meaning.

As for my mention 1 Corinthians 11:21 before: Well, it has been a while since I did this study. I was wrong on my initial response here on this verse. My old position on this verse is correct. Based on my previous study, the word “drunken” here is not referring to intoxication like we would understand this word today in this particular context. It is in reference to being fully satiated by a particular beverage.

First, the context demands that Paul is referring to “drunken” (μεθύω) (methyō) as not referring to intoxication because the following verse, we read how Paul says, “What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?” (1 Corinthians 11:22). Obviously Paul is not encouraging them to get intoxicated in their homes instead.

Second, we see in Old English literature that “drunken” does not always mean intoxicated. For example, Richard Baxter, The Reformed Pastor (1656) said, "Let us not be as children that are drunken with milk, who know not the worth of it because they have had it in abundance."
And all this to say... what, exactly? That you still refuse to concede the point?
 
Nov 28, 2023
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#95
Well, Paul says the wine to be used at Passover is alcoholic...

First of all it is not the Lord's supper, it is the Passover

1Co 11:20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.

1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
1Co 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
1Co 11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

What night was He betrayed?

Luk 22:15 Then He said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;

So, was the wine alcoholic?

1Co 11:20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.
1Co 11:21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.

Ever been drunk on grape juice?
As for my mention 1 Corinthians 11:21 before: Well, it has been a while since I did this study. I was wrong on my initial response here on this verse. My old position on this verse is correct. Based on my previous study, the word “drunken” here is not referring to intoxication like we would understand this word today in this particular context. It is in reference to being fully satiated by a particular beverage.

First, the context demands that Paul is referring to “drunken” (μεθύω) (methyō) as not referring to intoxication because the following verse, we read how Paul says, “What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?” (1 Corinthians 11:22). Obviously Paul is not encouraging them to get intoxicated in their homes instead.

Second, we see in Old English literature that “drunken” does not always mean intoxicated. For example, Richard Baxter, The Reformed Pastor (1656) said, "Let us not be as children that are drunken with milk, who know not the worth of it because they have had it in abundance."

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Nov 28, 2023
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#96
i do not believe it is Christian behavior to align one's self with any worldly political party.
I used to be more detached on the matter. I did not really have a reason to care. The world of politics used to be pretty boring. While I am not associated with any particular party, I do care for the state of our nation and want the best for it. I did not even vote. Also, I do realize both parties are of this world, but I don’t want to see our country spiral downwards. If that is God’s will, so be it, but I do care about the place I live. So I do agree with certain values the Right has. Many values of the Left today is pure insanity. The blue wall is such a polar opposite representing much that is evil.

Another problem with the Left is that they lack common sense and they are not truth seekers who will follow the facts wherever that may lead. So some of them get emotional to a point that it shows bad fruit. While Anti-Textual Absolutists are unlike the Dems overall, in these three areas, they share a commonality. Granted, I am not saying all KJV advocates are saints. There are some that are heretical. But the point is that is that I see some parallels between these two groups.

I say this not to wound anyone here. I love all here in Christ Jesus. I am just calling it like I see it from my perspective.

May God bless you.

Side Note:

I do understand we are not to love the world and neither the things in this world. We should seek after Christ and His righteousness. The true savior is Jesus Christ and no leader of any country. But it would be nice to be in an environment where are efforts for the gospel will be less hindered.

….
 
Nov 28, 2023
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#97
The English words "new wine" in the KJV can refer to either fresh grape juice or wine that is in the process of fermenting, depending on the context. When this wine was consumed for social gatherings, it would be diluted with water. In the case of Matthew 9:17, "new wine" refers to wine that will eventually fully ferment into strong, intoxicating wine. However, this fermented wine served as a means of storage and could be easily transported, but it was typically not consumed undiluted at social gatherings or feasts unless a person intended to commit the sin of drunkenness. When this fermented wine was consumed for social gatherings, it would be diluted with water so that it was only mildly intoxicating. It could also be used to ease pain for those with severe wounds before death and to sanitize water. Matthew 9:17 addresses the storage of this strong wine, which would, in most cases, be diluted for consumption.

In Matthew 9:17 (KJV), Jesus says, "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved." Here, He recommends that new wine be placed in new bottles to allow for safe fermentation. This new wine is unfermented and has not yet undergone the process that produces strong wine. Fermentation is what stretches an old bottle to its maximum capacity during the process; an additional round of fermentation would burst an already-stretched wineskin. Therefore, new, unfermented wine needs to go into new wineskins that have not yet been stretched.

The miracle that Jesus performed at the wedding feast, turning water into wine, was remarkable because His wine was unfermented, pure grape juice, without any trace of fermentation. This pure wine symbolizes the purity of His blood, which has the power to cleanse us from sin. In contrast to fermented wine, which symbolizes a process of decay, Jesus’s unfermented wine at the wedding signifies a new purity and life, representing His spotless sacrifice.

However, in the case of the parable of the wineskins, the focus is on the shift in mindset required of the Jewish people, from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. Just as new wine requires fresh wineskins, Jesus’s teaching required a new mindset, open to the New Covenant and the salvation it brings, fulfilling and surpassing the Old Covenant.


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Nov 28, 2023
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#98
I believe the Israelite was allowed to drink fermented wine diluted with water. However, those under the New Covenant, this is more tricky. If a person's conscience does not see alcohol as a poison (Which it is), they can drink the Israelite form of wine that is diluted with water. Yet, on the other hand, I believe the Lord's supper was fresh grape juice. The fruit of the vine is fresh grape juice and not a decaying fruit. So, this is one of those topics where a believer has to grow and mature on such a subject. I believe drinking strong intoxicating beverages is sinful. It was condemned even by the Israelites when used in social gatherings or normal every day consumption.


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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#99
The miracle that Jesus performed at the wedding feast, turning water into wine, was remarkable because His wine was unfermented, pure grape juice, without any trace of fermentation.
This claim has absolutely no scriptural support; it is eisegesis and has no evidentiary power in this discussion.

This pure wine symbolizes the purity of His blood, which has the power to cleanse us from sin. In contrast to fermented wine, which symbolizes a process of decay
More eisegesis. There isn't any Scripture that says "fermented wine... symbolizes a process of decay".
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I believe the Israelite was allowed to drink fermented wine diluted with water.
Scripture is quite clear in refuting your baseless belief:

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

That is God's instruction to the Israelites. "Wine or... strong drink" does not mean weak, diluted wine. God endorsed the consumption of alcohol, even strong alcoholic beverages.

I believe drinking strong intoxicating beverages is sinful. It was condemned even by the Israelites when used in social gatherings or normal every day consumption.
It's really quite foolish to believe something is "sinful" when it is obviously endorsed in Scripture.