Understanding God’s election

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Rufus

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Magenta

Magenta

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Chicks originate from embryos that are created when a roo fertilizes a hen. Unlike humans an egg is a self-contained system with all necessary nourishment contained within itself that merely needs to be kept warm and turned to enable the embryo to develop into a chick. So chicks come out of shells, not hens or incubators, but originally it all starts in the innermost parts of a hen.

Likewise, sin originates from sin embryos that are created when the devil's seed in the form of fleshly enticements fertilizes longings in the innermost parts of the flesh and soul, where they are nourished and develop until they are birthed as sin through the actions and thoughts of the flesh

So I don't think your analogy is very good.
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James 1:14-15; 1 John 2:16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .:)
 
Magenta

Magenta

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Zealously rightly dividing the word isn't sin. It helps us to divide between the longings of the soul and the longings of the spirit, so that we can walk a straight path

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12​
​
And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. Revelation 18:14​
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Hebrews 4:12 The word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
:)
 
Genez

Genez

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Rufus said:
Why don't you answer my straightforward questions? Do you believe the heart is the seat of only the mind? And if so, where do man's other faculties reside? (This latter question presumes you know what all our faculties are.)
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I do answer straight forward.

When I answer straight forward, you get cross eyed.

Others do get what I say...
Others will not.
 
Genez

Genez

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Rufus said:
Why don't you answer my straightforward questions? Do you believe the heart is the seat of only the mind? And if so, where do man's other faculties reside? (This latter question presumes you know what all our faculties are.)
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The Heart is the seat of who and what the person really is!

I already made that known to you. (post 1492)


“As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." Proverbs 23:7a.​
​
You said in your heart: “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the ​
stars of God. I will sit on the mount of assembly, in the far reaches of the north." Isaiah 14:13​
​

Then you keep asking me to show you after showing you what the Word of God says?
 
R

Rufus

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MeowFlower said:
True,there is no such animal.

That's because it is a Covenant. The Adamic Covenant.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Adamic-covenant.html
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Yes, it is an animal because the "Adamic Covenant" is a serpentine lie. Again, I don't do unprecedented. All the covenants God made in the bible were post-Fall; and those covenants were made in order for God to provide a salvific remedy for the Fall of mankind with each subsequent covenant building on the prior one.
 
M

MeowFlower

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Rufus said:
Yes, it is an animal because the "Adamic Covenant" is a serpentine lie. Again, I don't do unprecedented. All the covenants God made in the bible were post-Fall; and those covenants were made in order for God to provide a salvific remedy for the Fall of mankind with each subsequent covenant building on the prior one.
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Not true.


For everyone else: and from the Got Questions link:

The Adamic Covenant can be thought of in two parts: the Edenic Covenant (innocence) and the Adamic Covenant (grace). The Edenic Covenant is found in Genesis 1:26-30; 2:16-17. The details of this covenant include the following:

Mankind (male and female) created in God’s image.
Mankind’s dominion (rule) over the animal kingdom.
Divine directive for mankind to reproduce and inhabit the entire Earth.
Mankind to be vegetarian (eating of meat established in the Noahic covenant: Genesis 9:3).
Eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil forbidden (with death as the stated penalty).

The Adamic Covenant is found in Genesis 3:16-19. As the result of Adam’s sin, the following curses were pronounced:

Enmity between Satan and Eve and her descendants.
Painful childbirth for women.
Marital strife.
The soil cursed.
Introduction of thorns and thistles.
Survival to be a struggle.
Death introduced.
Death will be the inescapable fate of all living things.

Although these curses are severe and inescapable, a wonderful promise of grace was also included in the Adamic Covenant. Genesis 3:15 is often referred to as the “Proto-Gospel” or “First Gospel.” Speaking to Satan, God says, “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, / And between your seed and her seed; / He shall bruise you on the head, / And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

Here God promises that one born of a woman would be wounded in the process of destroying Satan. The “seed” of the woman who would crush the Serpent’s head is none other than Jesus Christ (see Galatians 4:4 and 1 John 3:8). Even in the midst of the curse, God’s gracious provision of salvation shines through.
 
R

Rufus

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Genez said:
The Heart is the seat of who and what the person really is!

I already made that known to you. (post 1492)


“As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." Proverbs 23:7a.​
​
You said in your heart: “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the ​
stars of God. I will sit on the mount of assembly, in the far reaches of the north." Isaiah 14:13​
​

Then you keep asking me to show you after showing you what the Word of God says?
Click to expand...
Well...here's a newsflash for you: The heart consists of FOUR faculties. So...you're batting .250. (That would make you a loser in most sports.) And here's another newsflash fer ya: The volition also resides in the human heart -- a heart in which nothing good dwells! So...stuff that in your hash pipe and puff on it. :p Have I ever denied that that the mind isn't one of faculties that resides in the heart? So, why the proof texts? Now, it's my turn:

Ex 35:5
5'Take from among you a contribution to the LORD; whoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it as the LORD'S contribution: gold, silver, and bronze
NASB

And,

Acts 8:21-22
21 "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
NASB

And,

2 Kings 12:4
4 Then Jehoash said to the priests, "All the money of the sacred things which is brought into the house of the Lord, in current money, both the money of each man's assessment and all the money which any man's heart prompts him to bring into the house of the Lord,
NASB

If you want proof where the other two faculties reside, don't hesitate to give me a shout.

And one more thing: ALL the faculties are engaged when one wills to do something. The volition doesn't operate in a vacuum, isolated from the other three faculties. This is precisely why had to give man a new HEART -- and not just a new mind.
 
R

Rufus

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MeowFlower said:
Not true.


For everyone else: and from the Got Questions link:

The Adamic Covenant can be thought of in two parts: the Edenic Covenant (innocence) and the Adamic Covenant (grace). The Edenic Covenant is found in Genesis 1:26-30; 2:16-17. The details of this covenant include the following:

Mankind (male and female) created in God’s image.
Mankind’s dominion (rule) over the animal kingdom.
Divine directive for mankind to reproduce and inhabit the entire Earth.
Mankind to be vegetarian (eating of meat established in the Noahic covenant: Genesis 9:3).
Eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil forbidden (with death as the stated penalty).

The Adamic Covenant is found in Genesis 3:16-19. As the result of Adam’s sin, the following curses were pronounced:

Enmity between Satan and Eve and her descendants.
Painful childbirth for women.
Marital strife.
The soil cursed.
Introduction of thorns and thistles.
Survival to be a struggle.
Death introduced.
Death will be the inescapable fate of all living things.

Although these curses are severe and inescapable, a wonderful promise of grace was also included in the Adamic Covenant. Genesis 3:15 is often referred to as the “Proto-Gospel” or “First Gospel.” Speaking to Satan, God says, “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, / And between your seed and her seed; / He shall bruise you on the head, / And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

Here God promises that one born of a woman would be wounded in the process of destroying Satan. The “seed” of the woman who would crush the Serpent’s head is none other than Jesus Christ (see Galatians 4:4 and 1 John 3:8). Even in the midst of the curse, God’s gracious provision of salvation shines through.
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And what a pity that Adam isn't found anywhere in Gen:3:15! He's totally M.I.A. I mean...I think God could have told the Serpent that he's placing enmity between the woman and her hubby. Or maybe it just slipped God's mind. ;)

P.S. In the interest of honest and fair disclosure: I left CT many moons ago when I began seeing all the convoluted in that system of theology. I subscribe to New Covenant Theology.
 
Genez

Genez

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Rufus said:
Well...here's a newsflash for you: The heart consists of FOUR faculties. So...you're batting .250. (That would make you a loser in most sports.) And here's another newsflash fer ya: The volition also resides in the human heart -- a heart in which nothing good dwells! So...stuff that in your hash pipe and puff on it. :p Have I ever denied that that the mind isn't one of faculties that resides in the heart? So, why the proof texts? Now, it's my turn:

Ex 35:5
5'Take from among you a contribution to the LORD; whoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it as the LORD'S contribution: gold, silver, and bronze
NASB

And,

Acts 8:21-22
21 "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
NASB

And,

2 Kings 12:4
4 Then Jehoash said to the priests, "All the money of the sacred things which is brought into the house of the Lord, in current money, both the money of each man's assessment and all the money which any man's heart prompts him to bring into the house of the Lord,
NASB

If you want proof where the other two faculties reside, don't hesitate to give me a shout.

And one more thing: ALL the faculties are engaged when one wills to do something. The volition doesn't operate in a vacuum, isolated from the other three faculties. This is precisely why had to give man a new HEART -- and not just a new mind.
Click to expand...

May God bless your mess...
You area truly a waste of time.
Acting like a gang bully, that hopefully may outgrow his past ways of glorying in himself.

I'll keep playing along.
You just need a little more rope to really expose yourself with.

If God allows.
 
R

Rufus

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Genez said:
May God bless your mess...
You area truly a waste of time.
Acting like a gang bully, that hopefully may outgrow his past ways of glorying in himself.

I'll keep playing along.
You just need a little more rope to really expose yourself with.

If God allows.
Click to expand...
I take it that you didn't like the passages? Does that mean you won't want to see biblical proof of where the other two faculties reside? You're content to wade in the muck and mire of your fanciful imagination?

Here's something for you to ponder: Have you ever heard of such a thing as crimes of PASSION?
 
Genez

Genez

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Rufus said:
I take it that you didn't like the passages? Does that mean you won't want to see biblical proof of where the other two faculties reside? You're content to wade in the muck and mire of your fanciful imagination?

Here's something for you to ponder: Have you ever heard of such a thing as crimes of PASSION?
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Shut the door.
Put him on Ignore.

Let the Lord even the score.
 
R

rogerg

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Genez said:
The heart is the function of your overall "thinking process."
How your mind reasons and believes is revealed in your heart.
You want to go on with that?
You really don't get it?
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Sure, I'll go with that – watdaya think - that I'm actually intimated by your spiritual prowess? Really? You usually get most things
wrong probably because you build upon an incorrect foundation. And no, the heart isn't the function of your overall thinking. Spiritually speaking, how your mind reasons and believes is not manifested in the heart, it is the reverse: what is in the heart reveals and manifests in reasoning and belief: sin unto sin or faith unto faith.

The mind of the natural man (unsaved man) cannot reason its heart into salvation. The spiritually dead are incapable of correctly comprehending the things of the Spirit.

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

All spiritual deceit originates in the heart. This verse does not say the mind causes the heart to be deceitful - rather the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above ALL things, which manifests into the mind.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

A man's heart (not his mind), is that which deviseth his ways

[Pro 16:9 KJV]
9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Deceit is in the heart of the man who imagines evil - from a deceitful heart comes the evil of the mind.

[Pro 12:20 KJV]
20 Deceit [is] in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace [is] joy.

I’m not going through rest of them to explain them to you, but you should be able to get the idea.

[Pro 16:1 KJV]
1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

[Mat 12:35 KJV]
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

[Pro 11:20 KJV]
20 They that are of a froward heart [are] abomination to the LORD: but [such as are] upright in [their] way [are] his delight.

[Psa 58:2 KJV]
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

[Mat 5:8 KJV] 8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

[Act 7:51 KJV] 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

[Rom 2:29 KJV]
29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

[1Co 14:25 KJV]
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

[Eph 4:18 KJV]
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
 
Genez

Genez

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rogerg said:
Sure, I'll go with that – watdaya think - that I'm actually intimated by your spiritual prowess? Really? You usually get most things
wrong probably because you build upon an incorrect foundation. And no, the heart isn't the function of your overall thinking. Spiritually speaking, how your mind reasons and believes is not manifested in the heart, it is the reverse: what is in the heart reveals and manifests in reasoning and belief: sin unto sin or faith unto faith.

The mind of the natural man (unsaved man) cannot reason its heart into salvation. The spiritually dead are incapable of correctly comprehending the things of the Spirit.

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

All spiritual deceit originates in the heart. This verse does not say the mind causes the heart to be deceitful - rather the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above ALL things, which manifests into the mind.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

A man's heart (not his mind), is that which deviseth his ways

[Pro 16:9 KJV]
9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Deceit is in the heart of the man who imagines evil - from a deceitful heart comes the evil of the mind.

[Pro 12:20 KJV]
20 Deceit [is] in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace [is] joy.

I’m not going through rest of them to explain them to you, but you should be able to get the idea.

[Pro 16:1 KJV]
1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

[Mat 12:35 KJV]
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

[Pro 11:20 KJV]
20 They that are of a froward heart [are] abomination to the LORD: but [such as are] upright in [their] way [are] his delight.

[Psa 58:2 KJV]
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

[Mat 5:8 KJV] 8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

[Act 7:51 KJV] 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

[Rom 2:29 KJV]
29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

[1Co 14:25 KJV]
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

[Eph 4:18 KJV]
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Click to expand...
You still did not explain what the heart is. You just cited passages that speak of the heart.

Here it is again!

The function.

“For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.” Proverbs 23:7​

Everything you manifest yourself with to yourself and others is produced by your heart.

That's all I wish to settle before all else.

This much can we agree on?


“For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.”​
​
When you and one other here start jumping to other passages as to change the emphasis, it seems that the definition Proverbs 23:7 provides is to be avoided.

That keeps me attempting to return to finally defining the term in hopes that we can have a common ground to build upon.
But, it keeps getting avoided and diverted away from.

You are as a person what you think in your heart!

Your heart holds personal likes and dislikes.
Your heart holds either delusion or integrity.

Your heart may want to see yourself of having achieved what you have convinced yourself of having achieved.
And, when exposed as to not being so?
We then see reaction and controversy....

That is what is happening.

So be it.
 
R

Rufus

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rogerg said:
Sure, I'll go with that – watdaya think - that I'm actually intimated by your spiritual prowess? Really? You usually get most things
wrong probably because you build upon an incorrect foundation. And no, the heart isn't the function of your overall thinking. Spiritually speaking, how your mind reasons and believes is not manifested in the heart, it is the reverse: what is in the heart reveals and manifests in reasoning and belief: sin unto sin or faith unto faith.

The mind of the natural man (unsaved man) cannot reason its heart into salvation. The spiritually dead are incapable of correctly comprehending the things of the Spirit.

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

All spiritual deceit originates in the heart. This verse does not say the mind causes the heart to be deceitful - rather the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above ALL things, which manifests into the mind.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

A man's heart (not his mind), is that which deviseth his ways

[Pro 16:9 KJV]
9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Deceit is in the heart of the man who imagines evil - from a deceitful heart comes the evil of the mind.

[Pro 12:20 KJV]
20 Deceit [is] in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace [is] joy.

I’m not going through rest of them to explain them to you, but you should be able to get the idea.

[Pro 16:1 KJV]
1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

[Mat 12:35 KJV]
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

[Pro 11:20 KJV]
20 They that are of a froward heart [are] abomination to the LORD: but [such as are] upright in [their] way [are] his delight.

[Psa 58:2 KJV]
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

[Mat 5:8 KJV] 8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

[Act 7:51 KJV] 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

[Rom 2:29 KJV]
29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

[1Co 14:25 KJV]
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

[Eph 4:18 KJV]
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Click to expand...
Excellent post! Mucho Kudos to you.

Even the worldly wise are more spiritually wiser than Genez. The heart is the CENTER of man's personality. Also, in my M-W Collegiate dictionary, one of the definitions of the "heart" is: "4 : the emotional or moral as distinguished from the intellectual nature". How often have any of us said for example: "that guy has a GOOD heart", etc.? As scripture teaches, there is a very strong moral component to the heart. Yet, at the same time, the same dictionary has this definition also: "6 a : the central or innermost part : CENTER b : the essential or most vital part of something".

In short, as important as the mind is, it cannot be defined as above. Man is more than intellect. Much more. Computers or AIs are very smart (intelligent) too; but do they have personality, conscience, emotions? Of course not! This is precisely why God didn't promise in the New Covenant to simply give his elect new minds. Rather a new heart was absolutely necessary to restore man spiritually and morally.
 
R

Rufus

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I have a question for CT advocates about this "Adamic Covenant", so called, that apparently begins in Gen 3:15 and ends in 3:19 or would that be 3:23? At any rate, my question is this: God addressed three distinct spiritual/moral entities, so how can this "covenant" be restricted to only Adam?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Rufus said:
I have a question for CT advocates about this "Adamic Covenant", so called, that apparently begins in Gen 3:15 and ends in 3:19 or would that be 3:23? At any rate, my question is this: God addressed three distinct spiritual/moral entities, so how can this "covenant" be restricted to only Adam?
Click to expand...
The Adamic covenant is in Genesis 2. Genesis 3 is a part of the covenant of grace.
 
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