Why do some people believe and some do not?

Yeah. And it sums up what you have been saying also. BINGO!

Include me in the appreciators. Every trade/skill has its own language.

I believe the Gospel because:

1. I have learned that human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).

2. I perceive that current existential reality indicates mortals need God in order to obtain immortality, that morality needs God for a universal imperative and ultimate justice, and that the NT offers the best hope that this “duo of desirables” (DOD) or heaven and justice/hell can be attained. Just as physical needs are satisfied by material realities, perhaps our metaphysical needs indicate the reality of supernatural solutions (the God of the DOD)

3. I understand that the there is no evidence supporting the atheist faith, including that they can create eternal life, discovery of the body of Jesus in a tomb, proof that moral free will (MFW) is an illusion, communication with human-like beings on another planet who had no salvation history, no proof that God could prove His existence to people without abrogating free will, and no proof that the universe is not created.

4. After conducting a comprehensive comparison of theistic religions, I decided that any open-minded truthseeker who compares the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul with the founding scriptures of other religions will reach the same conclusion as I have: The NT is the most credible canon or collection of writings purporting to be a communique from God. The NT hope for heaven is based on evidence in support of Jesus’ claim to be Messiah/Christ, which includes: the prophecy or foreshadowing of His life (in various OT scriptures, including IS 53 and PS 22, and by the sacrificial system), the purpose of His death (as explained in the NT, such as HB 7:18-10:18), and the probability or credibility of His resurrection (in history as recorded by the last chapters of the Gospels and RM 1:3-4).

IOW, it seems more logical to me that an unbiased truthseeker would have a propensity to hope the Christian view is correct, because there seems to be no better (credible and desirable) way of attaining the DOD than NT theism. This Propensity Principle restates Pascal’s wager in terms of comparison shopping (with all belief systems) instead of gambling, employing linear logic (rather than circular reasoning) to propose faith in the NT God as the best belief that solves the maze of reality as follows:

1. Current scientific knowledge cannot explain how the universe came to exist by means of natural causes, thus it is possible that the cause of the universe is a supernatural Creator/God.

2. The most creative species is humanity, whose traits also include language, moral conscience and God consciousness (personality), so it is possible that these human traits reflect attributes of a God who created humanity.

3. Existential reality indicates that humans are mortal and life is painful, but when life is happy, one wishes it would continue indefinitely. Thus, it is rational to seek ways to become immortal in a heavenly existence (where there is love and justice for all forever, the DOD).

4. Comparing all possible ways of achieving the DOD, the best or most credible way/hope at this point appears to be the God who resurrected Christ Jesus, although it is possible (yet unprovable) that a natural cause of the universe may be discovered in the future, which would then indicate that the best hope would be for humanity to learn how to create a utopian existence, at least for those who are alive at that point.

5. When words from God are sought, the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul seem to be the most highly inspired when compared with other scriptures (including the OT), because its concept of one God as the just and all-loving Judge (rationale for morality) is spiritually highest or most advanced, and the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is most credible (although not compelling).

6. Thus, IMO it is appropriate or wise to believe in the NT God and to accept Jesus as God’s Messiah.

Your turn to explain why you believe.

Yep, pretty much what I've been saying.
Romans 10
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Here is what the words "come by" mean.

1537. ek or ex
Definition: from, out of, by, away from
Meaning: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.


When the Word is heard, the Holy Spirit draws out our FAITH, that is in our inner Being, and we are quickened. It was put there by God. Gifted to us. We are at that point "Born Again".

So God gave us the Faith to believe, actually putting it in our inner Being (man), drew us to Him, and made us His Children when we hear the Gospel and use that Faith to believe.

To say we got our Saving Faith from any other source than God is BOASTING. In either your intellect, your earnest repentance, or your being better than those that reject Him.

I think that's a very dangerous place to be. GIVE GOD THE CREDIT!

Hmm...... Boy! You're pretty smart to have unlocked the mystery of Salvation with your brain!

5, "I"s.

Wonder where else it was written about an entity using 5 "I" s?

Yeah, I'm sure you are right, I try not to too often dabble in these type threads.

But on the other hand, getting the Scriptural facts out there every so often is probably worthy for the benefit of newer Christians that might be confused on it.

Exactly! And God has done something about that problem.

God opens the eyes and ears of ALL. Equal privilege.

Take it or leave it. Equal opportunity.

John 16:8-9

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Matt 27:51
And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.


John 12:32
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’ ”

2 Cor 6:2
For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Acts 16:31~~~Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved....

Equal privilege, equal opportunity for ALL.

Rightly so, it is not taught by the writers of the NT, they also assert that mankind is created by god to be that way from birth, again something incorrectly deduced from their proof texts but not clearly taught anywhere.

If that were true, then ALL would believe.


7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Has God blinded most of them? HE MADE them so they were blinded?

The question remains the same. And ever will remain.

Why do YOU believe and the next guy doesn't?

Maybe.

Rom10:16-17 (with a little editing to reflect the Greek) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report/thing heard?" 17 So then the faith comes by hearing from/as a result of something heard (see 10:16) and hearing the thing heard/"our report"/the gospel by/through the a spoken word/message of/from God.

• The Gospel = a spoken message from God = the report/news = something heard = something true Faiting believed = something obeyed - which results in [True] Faith.
• If there's any gift here, it's the spoken message from God about His Son being Jesus His Chris that men believe in.

This is interpretational at best.

• What do you mean by our Faith that is in our inner being and how do you support this with Scripture?

• Part of the issue here is that Faith can be interpreted a few ways:
  • Faith from a message from God = subjective (
  • The Faith once delivered to the Holy Ones = objective (what is believed and obeyed - the Gospel).
  • To believe = verbal.
• So, you'd have to explain precisely what you mean. I'll take your words and tell you how I'd use the to be in line with the Text as I read it:
  • God gave us the Faith to believe - I agree. God gave us the Gospel.
  • actually putting it in our inner Being (man) - I agree. God spoke the Gospel to men and men heard it and learned it and chose (for many different reasons) to believe it.
  • and made us His Children when we hear (and learn) the Gospel/the Faith and use that Faith to [chose to] believe/obey (with the capacity for thought God gave to all men and did not let be destroyed by sin).

• Men's capacity to hear and learn and believe was created by God. So, in reality all comes from God - existence itself.
• The Faith a.k.a. as the Good News about His Son, Jesus is His Christ came from God.
• Since God is the source of existence, intellect, the Gospel, the only plan of salvation, the sender of His Son, etc., why would a man boast about becoming convinced to believe, repent (turn to God)?
• Thinking one is better than another for choosing to believe seems an empty charge (there again something one hears from some with Calvinistic leanings).

How? Could you explain how those verses teach ALL would believe?

I wouldn't buy the premise you seem to have agreed with.

@PennEd: #911 has some typos I'd liked to have cleaned up. Will do so if you'd like to discuss.

John 16:8-9

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

You can buy the premise or deny the premise..Your choice.

I will just make one post here.

The one with the serious problem is you in that you have no idea what Paul meant when he said the following.

Rom 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Prior to saying that, Paul said this;

Rom 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Contextually, which means absolutely nothing to several of you, Paul was talking about his condition prior to exercising saving faith in Christ, or he was talking about his condition as an unregenerate man. Even when he was unsaved, HIS WILL WAS TO DO GOOD, HE DELIGHTED IN THE LAW OF GOD IN HIS INWARD MAN, AND HE SOUGHT TO SERVE THE LAW OF GOD WITH HIS MIND, but he could not, and NOT "he would not," keep it because the law is spiritual, and as an unregenerate man, Paul only had a fleshly circumcision which gave him no power to keep a spiritual law. However, after embracing Christ, Paul was circumcised in his heart or in his spirit, and he could now obey God through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. In other words, Paul clearly had a FREE WILL prior to his conversion, but he simply lacked the inner power to do that which HE WILLED TO DO. In this sense, and in this sense alone, his carnal mind was not subject to the law of God. Again, HIS WILL WAS TO DO GOOD, HE DELIGHTED IN THE LAW OF GOD IN HIS INNER MAN, AND HE SOUGHT TO SERVE THE LAW OF GOD WITH HIS MIND, but he lacked the spiritual power to do so because he was yet unregenerate at that time.

All this nonsense about a "freed will," as opposed to a "free will," is just that.

NONSENSE!

You people need to give it a rest. You are repeatedly wresting scripture, and you will give an account of it one day before God. I would repent if I were you.

Where does scripture state he cannot obey the commandment?

Mankind’s inability to submit to God’s law does not prove their inability to trust in Christ who fulfilled the law for mankind.
Mankind’s inability to please God while acting in the flesh does not prove mankind’s inability to respond to the spiritual appeal of God through the Gospel so as to receive salvation.
The gospel IS God’s spiritual and gracious means. Faith comes by hearing!

To teach this concept of pre-faith regeneration or special enabling (prevenient grace) means that God (for some unknown reason) decided to punish all of us for the sin of Adam by making us all innately incapable of responding willingly (from birth mind you)
to His own word unless He actively did something to make us able again.

Does that make any rational sense if viewed objectively?

I wait for that verse that states the above clearly. You will not find it because it does not exist.

You can find all manner of descriptions of the fallen man but you have no link, no clearly stated scripture that teaches man is born unable respond to positively to the Gospel message.


What you doing is making a theological incorrect deduction which is made in spite of overwhelming verses which state the opposite.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

Spiritual life comes through a person exercising faith IN Christ Jesus, not the other way around.

Appreciate your perspective.