The Rapture of the church, REAL or NOT REAL?
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You have your opinion. Others have theirs. Just let it be what it is. Do not "let your feathers be ruffled" too easily.
Some folks on here just love it when they see that happen - they will "jump on it" in a heartbeat just for self-amusement.
If you see the comments of others as 'needless' and/or 'useless' - just ignore them if that is what it takes for your sanity.
Otherwise - you might just be able to learn something from some of the things others say that you find uncomfortable.
Whatever works for you. However, do not let it "throw you" too much. People will be people. And, there are all types on here...
Some folks on here just love it when they see that happen - they will "jump on it" in a heartbeat just for self-amusement.
If you see the comments of others as 'needless' and/or 'useless' - just ignore them if that is what it takes for your sanity.
Otherwise - you might just be able to learn something from some of the things others say that you find uncomfortable.
Whatever works for you. However, do not let it "throw you" too much. People will be people. And, there are all types on here...
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Hi, Johnny55.
Once a post is made, you only have 5 minutes in which to edit it. After you make your post, the word EDIT will appear in blue letters beneath your post. If you click on that within the allotted time frame, then you can make your changes. After that, you would need to click where it says SAVE, and your changes will be preserved.
As far as the "nit-picking tongue lashers" are concerned, you do have the option of placing posters here on "ignore." To do so, you would simply need to move your cursor over their username, and then just click where it says IGNORE. If you do put someone on "ignore," then I am pretty sure that they will still be able to see and read your posts, but you will no longer see any of their responses to your posts.
Do not delete your account or give up the hill. I think that you have already seen that enough people here are willing to read your posts in their current formatting style and to engage you in conversation which relates to that which you have actually written.
I hope that this information helps.
Once a post is made, you only have 5 minutes in which to edit it. After you make your post, the word EDIT will appear in blue letters beneath your post. If you click on that within the allotted time frame, then you can make your changes. After that, you would need to click where it says SAVE, and your changes will be preserved.
As far as the "nit-picking tongue lashers" are concerned, you do have the option of placing posters here on "ignore." To do so, you would simply need to move your cursor over their username, and then just click where it says IGNORE. If you do put someone on "ignore," then I am pretty sure that they will still be able to see and read your posts, but you will no longer see any of their responses to your posts.
Do not delete your account or give up the hill. I think that you have already seen that enough people here are willing to read your posts in their current formatting style and to engage you in conversation which relates to that which you have actually written.
I hope that this information helps.
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In the general 'event' sense - literal.
Just understand that there are "bits" of symbolic wording within all of the literal wording. For example, I do not believe that the 'key' in Revelation 9:1 is a literal key that opens a physical lock. Rather, it represents the means-and-ability to open the bottomless pit.
Where you see the words "as it were" used - it is a relational/relative description of something - not that it is the literal thing described by the words themselves directly. (i.e. - "a great mountain burning with fire" in Revelation 9:8)
Revelation is a mixture of literal and non-literal. John "saw" and described both literal and non-literal.
The literal is described in 'event' terms - "this will occur":
~ 'the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up' (Revelation 8:7)
~ 'the third part of the sea became blood' (Revelation 8:8)
Now - was it actually blood? Or, just something that John could only identify and assume was blood? And, does it really matter? Whatever it was, it caused a lot of death in the sea. The important thing to always look at is the 'event' nature of what is being described. The 'details' of the description may involve non-literal components; however, when it states something in the form of "this will occur" - in 'event' terms - in that sense - it is literal.
For lack of time, I need to cut this short...
Just understand that there are "bits" of symbolic wording within all of the literal wording. For example, I do not believe that the 'key' in Revelation 9:1 is a literal key that opens a physical lock. Rather, it represents the means-and-ability to open the bottomless pit.
Where you see the words "as it were" used - it is a relational/relative description of something - not that it is the literal thing described by the words themselves directly. (i.e. - "a great mountain burning with fire" in Revelation 9:8)
Revelation is a mixture of literal and non-literal. John "saw" and described both literal and non-literal.
The literal is described in 'event' terms - "this will occur":
~ 'the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up' (Revelation 8:7)
~ 'the third part of the sea became blood' (Revelation 8:8)
Now - was it actually blood? Or, just something that John could only identify and assume was blood? And, does it really matter? Whatever it was, it caused a lot of death in the sea. The important thing to always look at is the 'event' nature of what is being described. The 'details' of the description may involve non-literal components; however, when it states something in the form of "this will occur" - in 'event' terms - in that sense - it is literal.
For lack of time, I need to cut this short...
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There is the question of what we mean by 'the church'
I'm pretty sure the op in this thread means 'all redeemed', but there are some who see 'the church' as an assembly, visible and localised.
So those in 'the church'.. standing as a representative of all of God's churches, have a different destination to all redeemed.
Different judgments for all redeemed compared to those who were faithful in God's churches.
Both groups still going to heaven.. but 'the church' getting a different place in heaven.
So.. as usual.. what many call 'the church' needs to be defined. What do we mean when we say it?
I'm pretty sure the op in this thread means 'all redeemed', but there are some who see 'the church' as an assembly, visible and localised.
So those in 'the church'.. standing as a representative of all of God's churches, have a different destination to all redeemed.
Different judgments for all redeemed compared to those who were faithful in God's churches.
Both groups still going to heaven.. but 'the church' getting a different place in heaven.
So.. as usual.. what many call 'the church' needs to be defined. What do we mean when we say it?
Perhaps I'm an oddity with my being an Israeli, and yet who believes in the pre-tribulation rapture because of my belief in what the Bible teaches about that rather than the silliness of the claim that this belief allegedly started with Darby, et al.
Why do I believe what the Bible says to us about this?
Well, to that question I will ask what other source is there other than the Bible?
In the arena of reason, the idea that the Lord will leave His body here to suffer through His own wrath poured out upon this earth and upon Israel, that just makes no sense.
Additionally, works-based salvation, which dominates many people's thinking through beliefs they harbor, they never seem to think through the implications of such a belief. For example, the idea that one can lose his salvation, that is works-based salvation, but so few ever think through to the conclusion to which such a belief leads.
So, those who WANT to stay here for the tribulation, go for it. As for me, I prefer to believe the scriptures.
MM
Why do I believe what the Bible says to us about this?
Well, to that question I will ask what other source is there other than the Bible?
In the arena of reason, the idea that the Lord will leave His body here to suffer through His own wrath poured out upon this earth and upon Israel, that just makes no sense.
Additionally, works-based salvation, which dominates many people's thinking through beliefs they harbor, they never seem to think through the implications of such a belief. For example, the idea that one can lose his salvation, that is works-based salvation, but so few ever think through to the conclusion to which such a belief leads.
So, those who WANT to stay here for the tribulation, go for it. As for me, I prefer to believe the scriptures.
MM
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Ephesians 5:3-7
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
So, those who are still here during the tribulation will be guilty of these things and more as to why they are still here, so why believe you will be here during the tribulation if it's not actually a matter of your own conscience about these things and more?
Do you have a guilty conscience? Are you guilty of any one or a combination of these things? Why believe that any other true believer will be here with you if you are the one guilty of this? Do you think that you can actually overlay your own guilt upon others?
If you hold on to these things, then that's on you, not anyone else.
Colossians 3:5-6
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
MM
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
So, those who are still here during the tribulation will be guilty of these things and more as to why they are still here, so why believe you will be here during the tribulation if it's not actually a matter of your own conscience about these things and more?
Do you have a guilty conscience? Are you guilty of any one or a combination of these things? Why believe that any other true believer will be here with you if you are the one guilty of this? Do you think that you can actually overlay your own guilt upon others?
If you hold on to these things, then that's on you, not anyone else.
Colossians 3:5-6
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
MM
To answer you question, I will go to Scripture.
Matthew 24:29-31
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31)And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of earth shall wail because of him. Even so, A-men.
Matthew 24:29-31
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31)And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of earth shall wail because of him. Even so, A-men.
Last trump or trumpet? The text doesn't say last of seven trumpet blasts. The Greek simply doesn't support that. The last trump and last trumpet blast of the seven angels...no. Not the same thing without injecting something into the text that isn't there.
This hit-n-run tactic isn't at all helpful in getting anyone onto your side of this.
Stay here if you wish. It's up to you.
MM
This hit-n-run tactic isn't at all helpful in getting anyone onto your side of this.
Stay here if you wish. It's up to you.
MM