Loss of salvation???

I believe the word, "ὁμολογέω" in verse 9 is in contrast to the word "λέγω" in verse 8.

"ὁμολογέω", which is a compound word derived from "λέγω" and literaerally means, “to say the same thing” per the abridged version of the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

If we say we have no sin" in verse 8 is contrasted with "If we admit we are sinners" in verse 9.

I agree with Dan that it is impossible to enumerate all our sins, and 1 John 1:9 is not telling us we must do so. It is telling us that we must agree with God's declaration that we are sinners in need of a Savior and that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for us to be right with God.

I was very recently chasing around through Scripture the watering concept. I've long held that those placing the Foundation in our time are not doing a "master builder" job. Nor IMO are many who are standing front and center as builders.

A question.

On another forum there are a couple of folks that say the builder (Paul/Teachers) is saved as if through fire if they fail. And the wood, hay and stubble that is burned up are............PEOPLE that they failed to "teach" properly.



Is this your understanding/interpretation?

I believe the word, "ὁμολογέω" in verse 9 is in contrast to the word "λέγω" in verse 8. "ὁμολογέω", which is a compound word derived from "λέγω" and literaerally means, “to say the same thing” per the abridged version of the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. therefore, "If we say we have no sin" in verse 8 is contrasted with "If we admit we are sinners" in verse 9.

I agree with Dan that it is impossible to enumerate all our sins, and 1 John 1:9 is not telling us we must do so. It is telling us that we must agree with God's declaration that we are sinners in need of a Savior and that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for us to be right with God.

Charging the subject just for edification purposes of course but have you noticed that 1Cor 3:1-3 that you quote describes them as carnal when they strive between each other over whether Paul, Apollos, or Peter is the better teacher? It does not say drunkards are carnal Christians. Then when it talks about works passing through the fire and some wood hay and stubble not surviving but they would still be saved yet not receive a reward and suffer some loss, that it is in the context of the teachings, and ministry of Paul, Apollos, Peter or any other minister. So we as ministers are to be careful about our teachings that we are preaching Christ. This is important
Too many have misunderstood and teach this passage all about a Christian who is a drunkard but that's not what Paul called carnal. He said drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God. In this passage where he says they are carnal he says it's because they are striving over favorite preachers but their jealousy and envy is NOT the wood hay and stubble that he refers to. The wood hay and stubble and being saved but suffering loss is not being applied to the carnal striving jealous Corinthians it is applied to Paul, Apollos,Peter or any other minister who must be careful that they build upon no other foundation than Jesus Christ, and to be careful that what they teach will receive a reward.

It's always interested me how so many, including many teachers, do not see the builders being the focus in that part of 1Cor.

It's also fascinating how the fleshliness of [still immature] Christians is presented in 1Cor and how forums like these bring out example after example of the same fact. In these days the names have been changed to more recent historical names and by inference to every denomination teaching something different. 'Well, my pastor says...' Camps-based soldiers.

flesh nature can only love those that love them back

Just repeating to say how much immaturity we see and do on these threads.

My concern here is that the 2 words are not contrastive. What they're being related to is.

• Although I've found it helpful to understand compound words, it's not always best practice to use such a literal definition literally based upon its compounded parts.
• TDNT non-abridged has a lengthy discussion on homologeō. I didn't look at the abridged version.
• BDAG provides the following main headings of lexical definitions (we can see the "same speak" concept):
  • 1. to commit oneself to do someth. for someone, promise, assure
  • 2. to share a common view or be of common mind about a matter, agree
  • 3. to concede that something is factual or true, grant, admit, confess
  • 4. to acknowledge someth., ordinarily in public, acknowledge, claim, profess, praise

I see what you're saying, but it seems to be pushing the language which is very simple:

• The object of the verb is: the sins [of] us - if we homolegeō our sins
• There are other words that could have been used to state that we homolegeō that we are sinners.
  • I think this is what's being stated in 1John1:8 and this verse doesn't need a contrast because it's built into the verse: if we say we have no sin then we are liars - so we do have sin - we are sinners.
  • So, 1John1:8 we're sinners > then what do we do when we commit sins = 1John1:9 = we acknowledge/confess/admit them = we agree with God that they are sins > 1John1:10 = disagreement with God about sin when we have sinned.

IMO @mailmandan has gotten into some hyperbole which is not a good practice in interpreting.

• Enumerating all sins first of all is pushing the envelope especially for a young believer but including the growing and even the mature believer. Since homolegeō is also a legal word, I think reasonable best efforts is in view here with the perfect and merciful understanding judge knowing all the facts.
• John is teaching about a dynamic walk in the light together with God and with one another in which God is teaching and training His Children about sins and enabling them to grow out of them.
• The Spirit is teaching and training to judge both good and bad (Heb5:14) and in a dynamic walk with God we hear from Him about committed sins and part of the walk in the light is to acknowledge them to Him. The last part of 1John1:9 is taught by some as the provision of God for cleansing His Children from even unknown sins (all unrighteousness) provided the condition of agreeing with Him on known sins is taking place - IOW the walk in the light is taking place as directed.
• As time goes on this provision becomes less and less necessary due to the growth process taking place in the walk in the light with Him and one another to and beyond maturity.
• James 5:14-16 applies a similar command to believers with one another in the context of healing from suffering and sickness that may be from having done sins.

The many and the few, the majority and the minority. The majority of those who profess Christ will hear those dreaded words, I never knew you, while the minority will hear, well done.

The world is filled with billions who take the Lord’s name in vain, they are the majority in every country, state, town, congregation and even forums like this-nothing we can do but tell the truth in love.

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

Just repeating to say how much immaturity we see and do on these threads.

I don't find much disagreement with your analysis, but I am still uncertain of your position on the view of some that 1 John 1:9 requires "confession of sins" as a pre-condition for God's forgiveness and cleansing. Dan can speak for himself, but I think he and I agree that His forgiveness and cleansing is not doled out piecemeal as we confess each sin daily. It appears you are saying the opposite -- that our "reasonable best efforts" to confess all our sins are regularly required or else He witholds His forgiveness and cleansing.

I think you are reading me correctly.

The way I read those Scriptures, they are mainly speaking of our walk in the light with Him. Part of that dynamic walk is to be and remain in agreement with Him and admit when we have disagreed with Him.

The conditional clauses are all 3rd class which provides for do or don't potentiality - if we do - if we don't.

So:

• IF we are walking in the light
  • Then we're being constantly cleansed
    • I think this is covering being sanctified from all kinds of defilements from the world and the cleansing and perfecting of the conscience spoken of in Hebrews (2Cor7:1; Eph5:26; Heb9)
• IF we say that we do not have sin (are not sinners/sinful)
  • Then we are not walking in the light & not being constantly cleansed
• IF we admit our sins (when we do sin)
  • Then He forgives our admitted sin(s) and cleanses from all unrighteousness
    • I think this cleansing from all unrighteousness ties this admission requirement back to 1:7 and remaining in the walk in the light with Him and with one another. IOW, apart from this admission when we know we have sinned, we are not walking in the light with Him and this forgiveness and cleansing is not taking place.
    • From here we go into the disciplinary instructions for wayward children.
      • In this regard, I think at minimum we must consider the perfect knowledge of a perfect Father and how we might think we can exploit this admission provision and get away with things, but we cannot.
• IF we say we have not sinned
  • Then in disagreement and not walking in the light

So, yes, I see admission of what we know as a requirement of walking in the light in fellowship. I see what you and @mailmandan are saying, but as I've said, I see it as a bit hyperbolic and thus placing a burden that can be too much. With this said, though, I don't arbitrarily limit our need to strive for the highest in learning and growing while also knowing that it is He that is in charge of our advance and setting our pace.

I came to view this dynamic walk as visually walking with our Lord Jesus as His disciple and a younger brother of the first-born Son of our Father. He knows our thoughts and can give us a look that asks what are you thinking? If we say or do something in disagreement with Him, He can give us that same look that asks if we'd like to reconsider and admit our error or even ask questions in an effort to better understand how and where we are in error. And He can escalate if necessary and ask us point blank if we'd like to reconsider and admit our error. IF we don't and want to be in disagreement with Him, then we're in rebellion, making Him a liar, His Word is not in us (which means more than we don't know the truth about some sin), and we've got problems not only in our walk but in our relationship which is based in submissive belief in Him.

Admission IMO is a dynamic tool for our education, growth, benefit and relationship. It's a requirement of our abiding walk in the light in fellowship.

I think you are reading me correctly.

The way I read those Scriptures, they are mainly speaking of our walk in the light with Him. Part of that dynamic walk is to be and remain in agreement with Him and admit when we have disagreed with Him.

The conditional clauses are all 3rd class which provides for do or don't potentiality - if we do - if we don't.

So:

• IF we are walking in the light
  • Then we're being constantly cleansed
    • I think this is covering being sanctified from all kinds of defilements from the world and the cleansing and perfecting of the conscience spoken of in Hebrews (2Cor7:1; Eph5:26; Heb9)
• IF we say that we do not have sin (are not sinners/sinful)
  • Then we are not walking in the light & not being constantly cleansed
• IF we admit our sins (when we do sin)
  • Then He forgives our admitted sin(s) and cleanses from all unrighteousness
    • I think this cleansing from all unrighteousness ties this admission requirement back to 1:7 and remaining in the walk in the light with Him and with one another. IOW, apart from this admission when we know we have sinned, we are not walking in the light with Him and this forgiveness and cleansing is not taking place.
    • From here we go into the disciplinary instructions for wayward children.
      • In this regard, I think at minimum we must consider the perfect knowledge of a perfect Father and how we might think we can exploit this admission provision and get away with things, but we cannot.
• IF we say we have not sinned
  • Then in disagreement and not walking in the light

So, yes, I see admission of what we know as a requirement of walking in the light in fellowship.

I see what you and @mailmandan are saying, but as I've said, I see it as a bit hyperbolic and thus placing a burden that can be too much. With this said, though, I don't arbitrarily limit our need to strive for the highest in learning and growing while also knowing that it is He that is in charge of our advance and setting our pace.

I came to view this dynamic walk as visually walking with our Lord Jesus as His disciple and a younger brother of the first-born Son of our Father. He knows our thoughts and can give us a look that asks what are you thinking? If we say or do something in disagreement with Him, He can give us that same look that asks if we'd like to reconsider and admit our error or even ask questions in an effort to better understand how and where we are in error. And He can escalate if necessary and ask us point blank if we'd like to reconsider and admit our error. IF we don't and want to be in disagreement with Him, then we're in rebellion, making Him a liar, His Word is not in us (which means more than we don't know the truth about some sin), and we've got problems not only in our walk but in our relationship which is based in submissive belief in Him.

Admission IMO is a dynamic tool for our education, growth, benefit and relationship. It's a requirement of our abiding walk in the light in fellowship.

Have you ever sought out I John chapter 1, whom it is written to by John and why John wrote it?

This Chapter was to Gnostics, that did not, do not believe in the Jesus that came to earth in the flesh through woman, using scripture, no flesh can please God. therefore, Jesus could not be here in the flesh ever since no flesh can please God (Romans 8:1-3)

So, John starts out the response to the person that wrote to him, when he was on the Island of Patmos about this division happening in this persons leading a gathering. that had people that would not believe or could not believe Jesus came to earth in flesh and blood


Authorized (King James) Version

1 John 1

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (for the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 3 that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

First off, Jesus did come here to earth in flesh and blood, we saw, him, we heard him, we ate with him, does this begin to clear it all up? I am Trusting from Father to reveal this truth to us all.
Son did come here to earth through the Virgin Mary, not born of man, born of woman yes as said in Genesis would happen in Chapter 3.
How does one walk in the light, as Son is in the light, risen for us to be new in Father's Spirit and Truth leading us as if we are dead to first birth in flesh and blood, held alive in Father's Spirit and Truth (John 4:23-24) and all thought taken captive over it (2 Cor 10:5) onward soldier, to me at least
To accept whether one sins again or not by God thanks to Son, one remains forgiven, reconciled by God through Son for them? (2 Cor 5:17-20, John 1:29, John 19:30)

That is fact, I know this truth, God is not condemning anyone since Son took away sin of this world for us all in Daddy's sight, What????????????????????????
Yes, this is done for us all to believe God and begin to see new from Father, Daddy's, PaPa's view
Once one, anyone accepts in thanksgiving and praise and asks for the new life in the risen Christ will be sealed to see the whole truth in being 100% forgiven, reconciled by God through Son for them as done for them to do new, no more focusing on I can't do it.
Under Law, not upholding Law, that did that to me for a long while, I see new now and see it is done as Son said it is in John 19:30, then risen where Father gives new life in Daddy's spirit and Truth, the Holy Spirit to lead you, in love and mercy to all, not just a few as we all have done that, Thinking I am in better than others attitudes of flesh nature being a person better than others (Luke 18:9-14)

God Won for you, me and everyone else, frisky reconciliation is the will one time death, then risen where Father gives new life to us each as in John 4:23-24
Now read 1 John 2 that explains it deeper than only reading verses that get taken out of place to convince people of what is not done against what is done
Think on the wisdom of God's love for us alll and ask why did Son go to that cross willingly fly for what?
God will reveal it to you to be stress free, while you might or should be in stress still and are not.
The same as Paul was still praising Father an dSon over being imprisoned and the jail help saw this unnatural response and began belief also

I think the position you have staked out goes beyond making "fellowship" conditional and makes our "relationship" conditional.

You agree that requiring us to enumerate all our sins is too difficult a burden to bear, but insist that "reasonable best efforts" to confess every known sin is required for the unconfessed sins to be forgiven. It is inconcievable to me to draw a line which clearly demarcates what is reasonable best efforts and what is not. I find it much more reasonable to accept and agree with God that there is nothing we can do to earn His forgiveness except to have a greatful heart for the price He paid for our sins.

I see the Spirit's interraction with us much the same as you have described here. The main difference is that I do not see Him as giving us "looks" or "asking us" to reconsider our actions. I see His correction as more direct. He corrects us whenever we go astray. His correction always presumes we know what corrective actions He requires. His correction is always so unpleasant that we eventually decide to be corrected. And we have peace again with Him as soon as His correction is successful. Certainly, while we are being corrected, our "fellowship" with God is suffering (because His correction is painful). But at no point in the correction process does He disown us and end our "relationship" with Him as children. I do think it is possible to resist His correction to the point that He ends our physical lives as punishment, but even then I do not see it as ending the gift of eternal life He had given.

If we are walking in the light, we are fellowshipping with Him, and there is no need for His correction. Our relationship with Him stays intact when we do not walk in the light. If we are His sons, He corrects us. If we are not corrected when we fail to walk in the light, then we are illigitimate and not sons.

How does this answer what some of us are discussing regarding the few verses we are discussing? John is writing to Christians - do you agree?

How does this answer what some of us are discussing regarding the few verses we are discussing? John is writing to Christians - do you agree?

Just repeating to say how much immaturity we see and do on these threads.