Loss of salvation???

[Jimbone]

Why do we have to endure in our faith?

Doesn't it say something more like the one who is saved WILL endure to the end. The assumption that our endurance is of our own will and not a blessing from God that we point to when recognized for this endurance to say "this was ALL Him and by His power did I endure, ALL glory to Him".

I don't have a problem with God speaking to us in terms that make sense to the flesh but point to bigger spiritual truths we can't even comprehend until He opens our eyes to them. This is where I find the biggest disconnect between those who put so much stock into the choices we make and just how much a role they play in salvation. Even though most just call me a Calvinist and then tell me I believe we don't have choice and can just put life in neutral, and let Gods plan just "happen".

I call this out as lies and strawmen for a very good reason. I am not a Calvinist and believe nothing like this, and never have. But they will not pay me he respect of listening to what I actually say and responding to that.

It says we have to endure in our faith because in our heads when we are thinking about these things, no matter if we are on a peak or in a valley, this is what we should think on. For me the heart of this debate is not what we should do, or if it's really "us" doing it. It really comes down to who gets the credit/glory/recognition for that choice. I testify it's God that gets it all. That's it. But there are others that seem to disagree and think that we actually have a little claim on that credit and glory for ourselves. I disagree a LOT with this.

 

[homwardbound]

God is good all the time as Good is God all the time
not seen as truth by first born flesh playing god
Psalm 82 tells me a lot, thanks and truth if God does not get all the credit, then it might not be of God at all. yet I see God uses everything good and bad to work it out for God's children's good
Thanks

 

[Genez]

Doesn't it say something more like the one who is saved WILL endure to the end.

Placing that comment into its correct context?
You will discover that Jesus was directing those words to Jews.
Jews who were not yet in the Church age.

Meaning?
He was speaking prophesy for Jews.

Meaning?
In the return to the age of the Jews (the Great Tribulation) those Jews who endure seven years to the end of the Tribulation
will be saved as they are delivered into the Millennium age.

If we had to do some work to be saved?
The Cross would mean nothing.

This is where rightly dividing the Word is a must.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I assume you'll be explaining this as we proceed. I completely disagree with this assessment. I do see the walk in the light as provisional as I think is clear in what I said and the walk in the light is fellowship. If the walk is not abiding, then discipline, which is still relationship.

I got confused somewhere by something I thought you said, but I can't find it now. I'm glad to see I am wrong on this point.

I understand your position. I disagree with it and think the language is very clear as I've already explained it.

I also think you're looking at this from a human perspective of what we can and cannot do, instead of from a divine perspective of what can be done in Christ in Spirit under the leading and guiding of the Spirit. IOW in the dynamic relationship we have with Him he can impress upon us what He wills and requires from us. This coupled with being taught His Word and His ability to enlighten us from His Word when He wants us to learn and to know something all works together to raise and train us at His pace as we do our part in abiding faithful submission to Him which is also enabled by Him. I also include being tested in this growth within relationship.

IOW the line of demarcation is His to draw and not ours. We live in Christ with the mindset provided us from His Word and His Spirit doing what we know He wills us to do, including admitting our know failures which ultimately, He has made us able to know, and He is at work in us providing capacity for us to both will and work for His good pleasure.

I'm confused again. I was pushing back against someething that I thought was human-minded. Then you responded that my push-back was human-minded. Looks like we might actually agree that we walk by faith and not by sight.

Whether looks or taps on the shoulder of conscience, He can perfectly get our attention. An issue with taking sheep metaphors too far is that we are not sheep and don't always need the rod to redirect us. Another metaphor in Scripture is of strong and powerful war horses that are so highly trained that it only takes a slight shift of the body or slight touch of the reins to redirect us.

As a child becomes trained, at times it only takes a look and there is no pain except for possibly a twinge in mentality/spirit that is self-critical for the failure - failing the one we love and look up to (to put it mildly).

I agree that walking in lock step with the Spirit is not painful. Actually, it is quite pleasant. And I have found by experience that it is much better to walk as He leads instead of suffering His correction when I don't.

There is also associated with all this provision to deal with sins the ability to approach our great High Priest in times of need which in context has to do with Him knowing everything about sins Heb4:15-16. I take this to mean and have used it for decades to approach Him if I'm struggling mentally with some sin. I've consistently found that the mental struggle ceases.

I've not remotely gotten into anything touching on loss of relationship and see no need to go there from these few verses.

Again, I'm glad my perception was wrong.

Disagree with your first sentence as already explained. If there's no need for His correction, then we never sin which contradicts these 1John verses. In a perfect walk, I'd agree with you, but IMO this is what this section of Scripture is discussing - we are not experientially perfected.

Ok, this may be a point of disagreement. I was taught that unlike "relationship", "fellowship" is interrupted when we sin, but is restored when we repent. But now I am thinking this is not a Scriptural point of view. I will need to seek God's wisdom on this point.

I agree with your second sentence in regard to these verses re: the relational and think I've made this clear re: His disciplining His sons.

If we are not ultimately corrected when we fail to walk in the light, then different levels of discipline have not worked, and it seems to be your view that we were never saved. Yet there are other views that say we were, and we're simply taken home prematurely. And there are others who say salvation can be lost. Again, IMO this is not under discussion in these verses.

No, it is not my view that if discipline does not work, the person was never saved. It is clear that the discipline spoken of in Hebrews 12 is for children only. I do ascribe to the "taken home prematurely" POV, though there is only one verse to support this as far as I know. And finally, I agree with you that the verses in 1 John under discussion do not bring up these subjects.

 

[studier]

Ok, this may be a point of disagreement. I was taught that unlike "relationship", "fellowship" is interrupted when we sin, but is restored when we repent. But now I am thinking this is not a Scriptural point of view. I will need to seek God's wisdom on this point.

Sounds like we've gotten closer. Since the days of emails began, I've constantly noticed how these type communications are often misunderstood.

Re: this fellowship matter. I too was taught a loss-type meaning. It was a constant in and out walk. The more I studied it and pondered it the less it made sense. This is why I gave you the visual of following Jesus in discipleship and coupled this to our relationship and fellowship. Such are typically much more dynamic and personal than some; you're in, you're out, you're in situation. This is also why I gave you the; look by the Master if you disagree concept. It's more of a parent child walk since we begin as children and grow under training to adults. Sometimes it takes a look, or a tap. Other times it may have to be escalated. And other times it's just, that's enough!

I came to view the walk in fellowship as more dynamic and more realistic than a constant in and out. This is simply not how close associations (fellowship) work. And the Master, the Rabbi, the Lord is always teaching and training. He knows He's raising spiritual children.

 

[Jimbone]

Placing that comment into its correct context?
You will discover that Jesus was directing those words to Jews.
Jews who were not yet in the Church age.

Meaning?
He was speaking prophesy for Jews.

Meaning?
In the return to the age of the Jews (the Great Tribulation) those Jews who endure seven years to the end of the Tribulation
will be saved as they are delivered into the Millennium age.

If we had to do some work to be saved?
The Cross would mean nothing.

This is where rightly dividing the Word is a must.

So you're arguing that we do get glory? Or are you just completely dodging my VERY clearly stated main point? You focus on the 1 off sidebar point, but completely ignore the main point of my comment.
My answer to your rebuttal- "I don't care what YOU think the rightly divided interpratation is".

What I do care about is the truth His Spirit leads me to, and His Spirit and the understanding He brings I find missing in action in MANY of your "interpratations" I see you argue for here. I'm not as worried about being corrected by you on matters He has opened my eyes to. Just can't unsee the truth of what He shows me because you hate Calvinst theology. You have CDS and it's destructive to the body.

 

[Inquisitor]

Doesn't it say something more like the one who is saved WILL endure to the end. The assumption that our endurance is of our own will and not a blessing from God that we point to when recognized for this endurance to say "this was ALL Him and by His power did I endure, ALL glory to Him".

I don't have a problem with God speaking to us in terms that make sense to the flesh but point to bigger spiritual truths we can't even comprehend until He opens our eyes to them. This is where I find the biggest disconnect between those who put so much stock into the choices we make and just how much a role they play in salvation. Even though most just call me a Calvinist and then tell me I believe we don't have choice and can just put life in neutral, and let Gods plan just "happen".

I call this out as lies and strawmen for a very good reason. I am not a Calvinist and believe nothing like this, and never have. But they will not pay me he respect of listening to what I actually say and responding to that.

It says we have to endure in our faith because in our heads when we are thinking about these things, no matter if we are on a peak or in a valley, this is what we should think on. For me the heart of this debate is not what we should do, or if it's really "us" doing it. It really comes down to who gets the credit/glory/recognition for that choice. I testify it's God that gets it all. That's it. But there are others that seem to disagree and think that we actually have a little claim on that credit and glory for ourselves. I disagree a LOT with this.

There are two example below that state that we are the ones who must endure.

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

These two verses above do not say, "the one who is saved WILL endure to the end".

No need for any assumption regarding what those two verses are saying.

 

[Kroogz]

Placing that comment into its correct context?
You will discover that Jesus was directing those words to Jews.
Jews who were not yet in the Church age.

Meaning?
He was speaking prophesy for Jews.

Meaning?
In the return to the age of the Jews (the Great Tribulation) those Jews who endure seven years to the end of the Tribulation
will be saved as they are delivered into the Millennium age.

If we had to do some work to be saved?
The Cross would mean nothing.

This is where rightly dividing the Word is a must.

Exactly. And In the context, it is a physical deliverance.

Faith alone in Christ alone is eternal life.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Question.

Why are there any threads wherein some try to talk ourselves into believing we aren't eternally irrevocably saved in Christ?

 

[Genez]

So you're arguing that we do get glory? Or are you just completely dodging my VERY clearly stated main point? You focus on the 1 off sidebar point, but completely ignore the main point of my comment.
My answer to your rebuttal- "I don't care what YOU think the rightly divided interpratation is".

What I do care about is the truth His Spirit leads me to, and His Spirit and the understanding He brings I find missing in action in MANY of your "interpratations" I see you argue for here. I'm not as worried about being corrected by you on matters He has opened my eyes to. Just can't unsee the truth of what He shows me because you hate Calvinst theology. You have CDS and it's destructive to the body.

What I said explained to why understanding dispensations is vitally important in interpretation.....

We now have the Church age.
And, we had, and will have a continuation of the age of the Jews.

Look!
There will be 144,000 Jews (not Christians) evangelizing the world during the Tribulation.
Why 144,000 Jews? The age of the Jews is to be continued after the Church is taken up in the Rapture.

Now if you want to argue?
Don't argue with me.
Show what I said to your pastor.
Let him explain it to you.

I hope he can.


Grace and peace....

 

[Genez]

Question.

Why are there any threads wherein some try to talk ourselves into believing we aren't eternally irrevocably saved in Christ?

Because those who have thoughts saying we can lose our salvation have heard a wrong spirit...

They come here to have what they heard tested.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Because those who have thoughts saying we can lose our salvation have heard a wrong spirit...

They come here to have what they heard tested.

Maybe it's just the flesh talking. Why does it have to be a spirit?

 

[bluejean_bible]

Maybe it's just the flesh talking. Why does it have to be a spirit?

Maybe consider a dark spirit is what entices the flesh to act according to its hungers.

And maybe thinking we can lose salvation feeds the ego that lives believing we are in control of our life.
Autotheism or Autodeism are also terms that encompass that ideology.

Something to consider.

 

[Genez]

Maybe it's just the flesh talking. Why does it have to be a spirit?

If you can challenge what was said with a valid correction?

And, a counter is then given back in return for the correction?

Chances are, the person is wrongly inspired ...

 

[Genez]

Question.

Why are there any threads wherein some try to talk ourselves into believing we aren't eternally irrevocably saved in Christ?

Our struggle is not against flesh and blood.... Ephesians 6:12


......

 

[bluejean_bible]

Our struggle is not against flesh and blood.... Ephesians 6:12


......

That's true. The Elect, the Saints of God, no longer struggle against flesh and blood.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Maybe consider a dark spirit is what entices the flesh to act according to its hungers.

And maybe thinking we can lose salvation feeds the ego that lives believing we are in control of our life.
Autotheism or Autodeism are also terms that encompass that ideology.

Something to consider.

There is no doubt that evil spirits entice us to indulge the lusts of the flesh, but the lusts of the flesh does not come from evil spirits. The flesh is evil on its own.

 

[bluejean_bible]

There is no doubt that evil spirits entice us to indulge the lusts of the flesh, but the lusts of the flesh does not come from evil spirits. The flesh is evil on its own.

As God's creation?

This is why there in Scripture is a distinct difference between the Redeemed and those dead in their flesh.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

If you can challenge what was said with a valid correction?

And, a counter is then given back in return for the correction?

Chances are, the person is wrongly inspired ...

I guess my point was that it could just be them walking in the flesh as opposed to walking in the Spirit. To say that every person who rejects the doctrine of Eternal Security is giving ear to evil spirits is going a bit too far, in my opinion.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

As God's creation?

This is why there in Scripture is a distinct difference between the Redeemed and those dead in their flesh.

I think I agree with your second statement. What is the point of the first question?