OSAS, another angle.

Gideon300 · Aug 5, 2026

OSAS seems to generate rather more heat than light. My point of view is that once people are born again, they are eternally forgiven and will be accepted by God. The conduct of their lives determines their rewards (or lack), not their place in heaven.

I heard it described this way: A goat is a goat by nature. A goat cannot become a sheep. Likewise, a sheep has the nature of a sheep and cannot become a goat. Even if a sheep acts like a goat, it is still a sheep. And a goat may do a good impression of a sheep, but it still a goat.

We are born sinners. Not too many dispute that. A sinner cannot be righteous. So God deals drastically with the sinner, by means of the cross. God does not change the sinful nature. He kills it. Then He raises us up to be new creations in Christ. Lord Jesus died for all mankind. God includes us in the death of Jesus when we accept Him. So the dead spirit is removed by the death of Christ and we rise with Him to new life.

Those who argue against OSAS simply do not understand the incredibly wonderful salvation that Jesus bought for us by His shed blood, death and resurrection.

There are many who act like sheep. Sorry, not good enough. Only those who have truly accepted Christ are His sheep. God knows who are truly His. Imposters will not be found in God's Kingdom. Even the least of those who are born again will be found in heaven. So take heart, those who fear losing salvation. If it depended on you and what you do, sure, you have reason to worry. If it depends on Jesus and what He has done, you are safe and secure. Just remember that it's better for you not to act the goat.

Mem · Aug 5, 2026

I think of it as that Jesus 'bears" us, as we are, albeit more spiritually than physically notwithstanding that He bore our sins physically on the cross. Ergo, that we must be born from above, and "Who has gone up except Him that has come down..." in order to do exactly that. But it isn't easy translating such an event in natural terms. "Who has believed our report? And to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?" Copilot explains the context of Isaiah 53 saying, "The 'report' refers to the message of God's plan for redemption and the servant's role in bearing the sins and sorrows of humanity." And its theological significance of that context saying, "The 'arm of the Lord' symbolizes God's power and intervention, which remains hidden from those who do not believe."

You can pick up a sheep and rest it on your shoulder, but not even I would try that with a goat.

Aussie52 · Aug 5, 2026

Gideon300 said:
OSAS seems to generate rather more heat than light. My point of view is that once people are born again, they are eternally forgiven and will be accepted by God. The conduct of their lives determines their rewards (or lack), not their place in heaven.

I heard it described this way: A goat is a goat by nature. A goat cannot become a sheep. Likewise, a sheep has the nature of a sheep and cannot become a goat. Even if a sheep acts like a goat, it is still a sheep. And a goat may do a good impression of a sheep, but it still a goat.

We are born sinners. Not too many dispute that. A sinner cannot be righteous. So God deals drastically with the sinner, by means of the cross. God does not change the sinful nature. He kills it. Then He raises us up to be new creations in Christ. Lord Jesus died for all mankind. God includes us in the death of Jesus when we accept Him. So the dead spirit is removed by the death of Christ and we rise with Him to new life.

Those who argue against OSAS simply do not understand the incredibly wonderful salvation that Jesus bought for us by His shed blood, death and resurrection.

There are many who act like sheep. Sorry, not good enough. Only those who have truly accepted Christ are His sheep. God knows who are truly His. Imposters will not be found in God's Kingdom. Even the least of those who are born again will be found in heaven. So take heart, those who fear losing salvation. If it depended on you and what you do, sure, you have reason to worry. If it depends on Jesus and what He has done, you are safe and secure. Just remember that it's better for you not to act the goat.

Charles Wesley, more than most, understood and proclaimed in his hymn's the 'incredibly wonderful salvation that Jesus bought for us by His shed blood'. Yet, He did not believe in the unconditional security of the believer.

Gideon300 · Aug 5, 2026

Aussie52 said:
Charles Wesley, more than most, understood and proclaimed in his hymn's the 'incredibly wonderful salvation that Jesus bought for us by His shed blood'. Yet, He did not believe in the unconditional security of the believer.

He also believed that it was possible to be perfect in this life. I do not. John Wesley and Charles had serious disagreements with each other and with George Whitefield.

I have a CD of Wesley's hymns that I listen to often. I don't have to agree with every view of every doctrine to appreciate a person's ministry. I am a fan of Derek Prince, but I disagree with one of his doctrines.

I don't know how anyone can be unborn again. It is God who causes us to be born again. How can He kill something that He created to give us new life? Can a believer change his nature? Can he make Himself unborn again?

Aussie52 · Aug 6, 2026

Gideon300 said:
He also believed that it was possible to be perfect in this life. I do not. John Wesley and Charles had serious disagreements with each other and with George Whitefield.

I have a CD of Wesley's hymns that I listen to often. I don't have to agree with every view of every doctrine to appreciate a person's ministry. I am a fan of Derek Prince, but I disagree with one of his doctrines.

I don't know how anyone can be unborn again. It is God who causes us to be born again. How can He kill something that He created to give us new life? Can a believer change his nature? Can he make Himself unborn again?

Can he be unborn again? He can die spiritually again. If I have free will to enter the Kingdom, I also have free will to depart from it. To admit one but deny the other is neither logical nor true. If I can depart out of Satan's kingdom, I can also depart the Kingdom of God.

Gideon300 · Aug 6, 2026

Aussie52 said:
Can he be unborn again? He can die spiritually again. If I have free will to enter the Kingdom, I also have free will to depart from it. To admit one but deny the other is neither logical nor true. If I can depart out of Satan's kingdom, I can also depart the Kingdom of God.

I have great difficulty imagining that a born again believer would willfully, deliberately and consciously choose to reject Christ. I'd sooner believe that a dog could rebel and turn itself into a cat. Or a sheep turn itself into a goat.

GRACE_ambassador · Aug 13, 2026

OSAS, another take?:

Yes, currently there is an 1.5 hour Documentary "Once Saved ~~Always Saved~~", that was actually 'fair'
and did bring up Many Scriptures That "Plainly and Clearly Taught God's Eternal Salvation", But:

Then they continued with all of these Difficult, Obscure, And Dubious 'Warning' verses, using them to Override The Plain And Clear, And Conclude that "man can actually lose" It!:

Thus Negating ~~The POWER Of The Precious BLOOD Of Christ And His FINISHED Work On The CROSS!~~

I would rather study God's Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided, With This Excellent Bible Study Rule:

----
(6) The Best "Interpretive" Commentary On The Bible Is :

The BIBLE Itself!

NEVER ever interpret The Many Plain Scriptures by the "few" difficult verses,
But, ALWAYS Always Interpret the few Obscure/Difficult/Dubious verses
By ALL Of The MANY Plain and Clear Passages Of God’s Pure And Holy Word!
-----

The Vast Multitude Of Plain and Clear Passages For God's Eternal Salvation!:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Thus believing and keeping:

The POWER Of The Precious BLOOD Of Christ And His FINISHED Work On The CROSS!
According to "The RICHES Of His Grace!"

And Not 'my behaviour', As The Only Basis For God's Eternal Salvation!!

But, that's just for myself. Others can decide for themselves, Correct?

Amen!
---------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

PennEd · Aug 13, 2026

Aussie52 said:
Charles Wesley, more than most, understood and proclaimed in his hymn's the 'incredibly wonderful salvation that Jesus bought for us by His shed blood'. Yet, He did not believe in the unconditional security of the believer.

I don’t put too much stock in a guy that admitted he didn’t love the Lord:

In this private letter (partially written in shorthand), John Wesley expressed a profound crisis of spiritual assurance, famously confessing: [1, 2, 3]

- "I do not love God. I never did."
- "Therefore I never believed, in the Christian sense of the word."

Aussie52 · Aug 13, 2026

PennEd said:
I don’t put too much stock in a guy that admitted he didn’t love the Lord:

In this private letter (partially written in shorthand), John Wesley expressed a profound crisis of spiritual assurance, famously confessing: [1, 2, 3]

"I do not love God. I never did."

"Therefore I never believed, in the Christian sense of the word."

There have been many who have gone through periods of doubt. William Cowper, the hymn writer spent most of his life doubting he was one of the 'elect'.
In regard to John Wesley, a what point in his life did he make the above statements? I have never come across this in all my reading of him, which is pretty extensive. Can you name your source?

PennEd · Aug 13, 2026

Aussie52 said:
There have been many who have gone through periods of doubt. William Cowper, the hymn writer spent most of his life doubting he was one of the 'elect'.
In regard to John Wesley, a what point in his life did he make the above statements? I have never come across this in all my reading of him, which is pretty extensive. Can you name your source?

I agree we can have doubts that the Lord assuages through His Word and the Holy Spirit. It appears Wesley may have been a false convert because he obviously wasn’t assuaged, however doubts are a different category then saying “I don’t love God, nor ever loved Him”

Wouldn’t you agree?

Disturbingly, this was toward the end of his life.

Just google the quotes and you can find out a whole lot about it.

Small wonder he didn’t believe in eternal security. Turns out, it looks like he didn’t believe at all!

Here’s a short clip, but I’d encourage you to look on your own:

Cameron143 · Aug 13, 2026

PennEd said:
I agree we can have doubts that the Lord assuages through His Word and the Holy Spirit. It appears Wesley may have been a false convert because he obviously wasn’t assuaged, however doubts are a different category then saying “I don’t love God, nor ever loved Him”

Wouldn’t you agree?

Disturbingly, this was toward the end of his life.

Just google the quotes and you can find out a whole lot about it.

Small wonder he didn’t believe in eternal security. Turns out, it looks like he didn’t believe at all!

Here’s a short clip, but I’d encourage you to look on your own:

I believe Wesley's admission was hyperbole. Consider the different times in your own life when God comes to you and reveals Himself on a deeper and more intimate way. It is as if you never understood God at all. Much like He did with Job. Read Job 42:5. Job had a relationship with God, but through Job's experience, his understanding of God exploded. Before Job's understanding of God was like hearing. Now his understanding was like seeing.

Aussie52 · Aug 13, 2026

PennEd said:
I agree we can have doubts that the Lord assuages through His Word and the Holy Spirit. It appears Wesley may have been a false convert because he obviously wasn’t assuaged, however doubts are a different category then saying “I don’t love God, nor ever loved Him”

Wouldn’t you agree?

Disturbingly, this was toward the end of his life.

Just google the quotes and you can find out a whole lot about it.

Small wonder he didn’t believe in eternal security. Turns out, it looks like he didn’t believe at all!

Here’s a short clip, but I’d encourage you to look on your own:

You are conveniently omitting the fact that He led a revival that even secular historians believed saved the UK from a similar revolution to that of France. He rode over a quarter of a million miles on horseback preaching the gospel, responsible for multitudes coming into the kingdom of God. The testimony of many was that he lived a holy life. And you reckon he was unsaved? Go measure you own life against his and be found wanting!
Your quote of Wesley comes from a dubious indirect source.

Chester · Aug 20, 2026

Gideon300 said:
I don't know how anyone can be unborn again. It is God who causes us to be born again. How can He kill something that He created to give us new life? Can a believer change his nature? Can he make Himself unborn again?

To me, the questions you ask above do not help at all: Why not just look simply at what we read in the Scriptures?

Gideon300 · Aug 20, 2026

Chester said:
To me, the questions you ask above do not help at all: Why not just look simply at what we read in the Scriptures?

I did read the scriptures and came to certain conclusions. Others read the scriptures and come to different conclusions. My questions relate to those who come to different conclusions. To me, their conclusions, i.e. that a Christian can lose their salvation, are not supported by scripture. And that is because some believers do not know what it means to be born again.

I ask the questions the way a teacher asks his students to think about a subject. I realise that is not so common these days. Educators prefer to tell people what to think rather than how to think.

Chester · Aug 21, 2026

Gideon300 said:
I did read the scriptures and came to certain conclusions. Others read the scriptures and come to different conclusions. My questions relate to those who come to different conclusions. To me, their conclusions, i.e. that a Christian can lose their salvation, are not supported by scripture. And that is because some believers do not know what it means to be born again.

I ask the questions the way a teacher asks his students to think about a subject. I realise that is not so common these days. Educators prefer to tell people what to think rather than how to think.

So back to your questions . . .

"I don't know how anyone can be unborn again. It is God who causes us to be born again. How can He kill something that He created to give us new life? Can a believer change his nature? Can he make Himself unborn again?"

I would answer all of these questions as "I do not know . . ." Does God's Word give a direct answer? If it does, then we know the answer to the question. If it does not, then I will not presume to use human logic or "common sense' to compose a doctrine.

Delvianna · Aug 21, 2026

I think the reason why this gets debated so much is that people don't view this teaching with God being outside of time, and they argue in a linear direction.

God knows who is truly His. Those who are truly His will have eternal life.
But that does not negate the idea of falling away. Those that fall away, will not be eternally His.

So instead of separating these two facts, people try and merge them together and that's where I think the problem lies.

So to say it a different way:
1. So from an eternal factor (outside of time), those who are His will always be.
2. From a human view point, you can technically be His temporarily, but you can fall away which by the view of number 1, you were never truly His to begin with in an eternal sense.

So when I read scripture, it falls into 1 of those 2 concepts depending on the context of the verses involved.

Gideon300 · Aug 21, 2026

Chester said:
So back to your questions . . .

"I don't know how anyone can be unborn again. It is God who causes us to be born again. How can He kill something that He created to give us new life? Can a believer change his nature? Can he make Himself unborn again?"

I would answer all of these questions as "I do not know . . ." Does God's Word give a direct answer? If it does, then we know the answer to the question. If it does not, then I will not presume to use human logic or "common sense' to compose a doctrine.

God gives all the answers we need in His word. Sometimes spiritual common sense is required. God uses questions at times. For example, "Can a leopard change its spots?" Jesus asked His critics questions also. They are called rhetorical questions. It means that the answer is obvious from the question itself. So no, God will not kill what He Himself made alive and no, the leopard is stuck with its spots, like it or not.

Chester · Aug 22, 2026

Gideon300 said:
God gives all the answers we need in His word. Sometimes spiritual common sense is required. God uses questions at times. For example, "Can a leopard change its spots?" Jesus asked His critics questions also. They are called rhetorical questions. It means that the answer is obvious from the question itself. So no, God will not kill what He Himself made alive and no, the leopard is stuck with its spots, like it or not.

When God asks questions in His Word, then I listen and I endeavor to understand.

When man creates a theology, then asks rhetorical questions to prove his theology, then I do not listen. Instead I ask for the Scriptures that state this theology.

GRACE_ambassador · Aug 22, 2026

Delvianna said:
God knows who is truly His. Those who are truly His will have eternal life.

Yes, This is Very [ AV ] Scriptural!

"Nevertheless The Foundation of God Standeth Sure, having This Seal, The Lord Knoweth

them that Are His. And, Let every one that nameth The Name Of Christ depart from iniquity."

(2 Timothy 2:19 AV )...

Delvianna said:
But that does not negate the idea of falling away. Those that fall away, will not be eternally His.

But, this has problems Concerning The Sure Foundation Above!:

1a) ...How long Has God Known them That Are His?

"According As He Hath Chosen us In Him before the foundation of the

world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

(Ephesians 1:4 AV) = Always Known them, Correct?

1b) Now Compare if these "fall away" from God's Eternal Salvation to "not be Eternally His"?:

How long Has God Known them that are Not His? "What Saith The Scripture"?:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;

but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that

day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils?

and in Thy Name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I Never Knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."

(Matthew 7:21-23 AV)

Those who believe in "falling away" from God's Eternal Salvation, have yet to explain to us how
it is that "these who did not 'fall away' but did many wonderful works In His Name" and Yet:

"He Never Knew" them - Can this yet be explained?

2) The Bema Judgment Seat For The Eternal Body Of Christ!:

Is it not A Biblical Fact! = Not All of the Eternal "members" Of The Body Of Christ,
are going "to be faithful!"?

And, Also, God's BluePrint (Romans - Philemon) of How All True Eternally Saved
Grace believers Should [ "...let Every man take Heed!..." ] "build Properly"
In The Current Age Of God's Amazing Grace!:

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall

receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers

together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

According to The Grace Of God Which is given unto me, as a wise

masterbuilder, I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth Thereon.

But let every man take heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other

foundation can no man lay than That is laid, Which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones,

wood, hay, stubble;

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The Day shall declare it,

because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's

work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built Thereupon, he shall receive

a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but

he himself Shall Be Saved ( # ); yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)

------------------------------------------------------------------

# Why Eternal Life? Jesus' BLOOD Paid In FULL The For Penalty For sin! Praise Him!
{ Grace believers Cannot Ever "make that payment" for themselves! see: Peace With God link }

Thus, God Is Satisfied With His SON's Payment And Graciously Forgives
All the sin of the humble submitters by "faith," And Freely Grants them
not probational, But Eternal, Life!

Thus, our One question Remains: Where Exactly is "man's doctrine" In Scripture Of:

"Christ Once { Always } "knew" you, but when you "fall away", He Then "does Not

{ And Never Did } "know" you"?

-----------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

Delvianna · Aug 22, 2026

GRACE_ambassador said:
Yes, This is Very [ AV ] Scriptural!

"Nevertheless The Foundation of God Standeth Sure, having This Seal, The Lord Knoweth
them that Are His. And, Let every one that nameth The Name Of Christ depart from iniquity."
(2 Timothy 2:19 AV )...

But, this has problems Concerning The Sure Foundation Above!:

1a) ...How long Has God Known them That Are His?

"According As He Hath Chosen us In Him before the foundation of the
world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"
(Ephesians 1:4 AV) = Always Known them, Correct?

1b) Now Compare if these "fall away" from God's Eternal Salvation to "not be Eternally His"?:

How long Has God Known them that are Not His? "What Saith The Scripture"?:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that
day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils?
and in Thy Name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I Never Knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
(Matthew 7:21-23 AV)

Those who believe in "falling away" from God's Eternal Salvation, have yet to explain to us how
it is that "these who did not 'fall away' but did many wonderful works In His Name" and Yet:

"He Never Knew" them - Can this yet be explained?

2) The Bema Judgment Seat For The Eternal Body Of Christ!:

Is it not A Biblical Fact! = Not All of the Eternal "members" Of The Body Of Christ,
are going "to be faithful!"?

And, Also, God's BluePrint (Romans - Philemon) of How All True Eternally Saved
Grace believers Should [ "...let Every man take Heed!..." ] "build Properly"
In The Current Age Of God's Amazing Grace!:

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall
receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers
together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

According to The Grace Of God Which is given unto me, as a wise
masterbuilder, I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth Thereon.
But let every man take heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other
foundation can no man lay than That is laid, Which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones,
wood, hay, stubble;

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The Day shall declare it,
because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's
work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built Thereupon, he shall receive
a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but
he himself Shall Be Saved ( # ); yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)

------------------------------------------------------------------

# Why Eternal Life? Jesus' BLOOD Paid In FULL The For Penalty For sin! Praise Him!
{ Grace believers Cannot Ever "make that payment" for themselves! see: Peace With God link }

Thus, God Is Satisfied With His SON's Payment And Graciously Forgives
All the sin of the humble submitters by "faith," And Freely Grants them
not probational, But Eternal, Life!

Thus, our One question Remains: Where Exactly is "man's doctrine" In Scripture Of:

"Christ Once { Always } "knew" you, but when you "fall away", He Then "does Not

{ And Never Did } "know" you"?

-----------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

You didn't understand my whole point. You singled out partially the point I made and then replied to half my point. Disagreeing with half a point isn't responding to the actual point I made because you aren't replying to the actual belief I hold. My argument is more complex than to reply to 1 sentence of it. Essentially, you’re arguing against half my answer while ignoring the part that gives it context. Once you remove that context, you’re no longer arguing against the point I actually made.

OSAS, another angle.

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