Romans 3:10-11 "There is none righteous, ...who understands, ...who seeks after God, no, not one;

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Genez said:
Please note....

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells;
Romans 7:18a

Our flesh is where the sin nature resides.
Our soul is not the flesh.

Because the flesh controls the soul of the unbeliever?
His soul is denied being able to perform righteous good.

God does not save our body.
God saves the soul.

Therefore, it is only the soul that God evaluates for salvation.
To do that?
God will arrange for evaluation of that soul to happen.
He does so by grace immobilizing the sin nature during certain moments that the soul
was being presented pertinent truth which God uses to evaluate souls with.

If there was any good to be found in that soul when minus the flesh by grace?
That alone is what God sees.

Then after the evaluation of men's souls by God?
In his omniscience God then choses whom He shall save, and predestines them
to be born in times of history according to His sovereign will and purpose.

It can cause odd feelings when it begins to all make sense. :whistle:
Click to expand...
Some verses to consider.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The "flesh", as I see it, is a description of all three, "spirit, soul, and body", all corrupted by sin. Dead, as the Bible says. (Ephesians 2:1, 2:5, Colossians 2:13, 1 Timothy 5:6, Romans 6:23). God is life, separated from Him we have no life, only death. When we are placed into Jesus, with the indwelling, we then have the Spirit in us, the life (Romans 8:9-11).

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!
 
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Genez said:
Your old body was CRUCIFIED!

He saves our soul only, as to give our soul a NEW BODY in the resurrection.


Man was created by God before a body was provided.



Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; ​
let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, ​
and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that ​
creeps on the earth.” ​
​
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; ​
male and female He created them. Genesis 1:26-27.​



It says man had been created by God in His image (Genesis 1:26-27).
Man was created in God's image before any body was to be given (Genesis 2:7) for the man.
Click to expand...
New bodies, as in made new, hence the resurrection.
 
cv5 said:
We can narrow the field quite handily by eliminating what Augustin and then the Reformers had to say about it.

The Presence of the Righteous: If you keep reading Psalm 14, David explicitly states in verse 5 that "God is with the generation of the righteous." Chronister points out the logical flaw in the Augustinian reading: if Psalm 14 literally meant that not a single human being on Earth can ever do good or seek God in any capacity, David would be contradicting himself four verses later by speaking of "the generation of the righteous."

Pastor Stephen A. Chronister (of Cliffside Community Chapel in Anchorage, Alaska) approaches Romans 3:10–11 by placing Paul’s words firmly in their original Old Testament context and reading them through a Christocentric, non-Calvinistic lens.

In his verse-by-verse teaching, Chronister directly challenges the Augustinian/Calvinistic doctrine of Total Depravity (the claim that fallen humans are spiritually "dead" to the degree that they are entirely incapable of seeking God or responding to the Gospel without prior, irresistible grace).

Here is how Chronister breaks down and exegetes this passage to refute fatalistic theology.

## 1. Restoring the Old Testament Context (Psalms 14 & 53)
The central pillar of Chronister’s exegesis is pointing out that Paul isn't constructing a systematic dogma about human inability—he is quoting Hebrew scripture (*a string of Old Testament passages, or catena*). Specifically, Romans 3:10–11 directly quotes **Psalm 14:1–3** (and its parallel, **Psalm 53:1–3**):
> *"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.' ... The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside..."*
>
Chronister highlights two key insights from this context:
* **Poetic Hyperbole vs. Ontological Inability:** David is describing the state of the *wicked fool* and the practical atheist who lives as if God doesn't exist, using Hebrew poetic hyperbole to emphasize how pervasive sin is in a corrupt society.
* **The Presence of the Righteous:** If you keep reading Psalm 14, David explicitly states in verse 5 that *"God is with the generation of the righteous."* Chronister points out the logical flaw in the Augustinian reading: if Psalm 14 literally meant that not a single human being on Earth can ever do good or seek God in any capacity, David would be contradicting himself four verses later by speaking of "the generation of the righteous."

## 2. Paul’s True Argument in Romans 3
Augustinian and Calvinist frameworks interpret Romans 3:10–11 as an assertion that human free will is entirely destroyed regarding spiritual matters. Chronister refutes this by pointing to Paul’s actual thesis in Romans 1–3:
* **Jews and Gentiles Are Equally Under Sin:** Paul’s objective in Romans 3:9 is establishing that **both Jews and Greeks are all under sin**. Jewish listeners believed their heritage and possession of the Torah exempted them from condemnation.
* **Using the Law Against Self-Righteousness:** Paul quotes the Jewish Bible (the Tanakh) back to a Jewish audience to prove that their own Scriptures condemn human self-righteousness. Paul’s point isn't "you physically cannot choose God," but rather "your legalism and heritage cannot save you, because by the standard of the Law, no one measures up as righteous."

## 3. Debunking Augustinian/Calvinist Fatalism
Chronister uses this exegetical foundation to dismantle several key assumptions of Reformed fatalism:
### A. The Absurdity of the "Command to Seek"
If "there is none who seeks after God" were an absolute, unchangeable law of human metaphysical inability post-Fall, God’s repeated commands across Scripture—such as *"Seek the Lord while He may be found"* (Isaiah 55:6)—would be nonsensical or disingenuous. Chronister emphasizes that God does not command people to do what He actively prevents or pre-ordains them from doing.
### B. Free Response vs. Divine Pre-Selection
Reformed theology asserts that God unconditionally pre-selects who will respond to the Gospel and leaves the rest incapable of responding. Chronister rejects this, teaching that God’s grace is genuinely offered to all and that humans possess genuine moral agency to accept or reject God’s revelation. Sin distorts human nature and makes us prone to straying, but it does not reduce humanity to puppets governed by fatalistic pre-determination.
### C. Left to Ourselves vs. Drawn by Grace
Chronister notes that *left entirely to our own self-righteous devices*, humanity does not seek the true God—we construct idols or glorify ourselves. However, when God reveals Himself through His Word, Creation, and the Holy Spirit, individuals are enabled to respond. The phrase "there is none who seeks" describes humanity’s natural direction apart from God's initiative, not an insurmountable barrier that requires irresistible pre-determination.
> **Key Takeaway:** Chronister demonstrates that Augustinian Calvinism misapplies Paul's Old Testament quotation. Paul uses Psalm 14 to indict self-righteous legalists and show that all people need a Savior—not to teach that God pre-selects who goes to Heaven or Hell while stripping humanity of the a
bility to seek Him.
>
Click to expand...
I'm not ignoring you, I just fell behind a bit. I'll read this more thoroughly later tonight.
 
Dave123 said:
New bodies, as in made new, hence the resurrection.
Click to expand...

In God's sight our present bodies were crucified. Dead. No longer rightfully ours.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved ​
me and gave himself for me.​
​
Galatians 2:20


That is why The Holy Spirit now has every right to control our body to have us not walk after the defective impulses of the flesh!

But we must confess our sins to God when we sin, as to recovering the Spirit filling us as to control us.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, ​
and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.​
​
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. ​
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and ​
purify us from all unrighteousness.​

1 John 1:7-9




​

​

 
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cv5 said:
We can narrow the field quite handily by eliminating what Augustin and then the Reformers had to say about it.

The Presence of the Righteous: If you keep reading Psalm 14, David explicitly states in verse 5 that "God is with the generation of the righteous." Chronister points out the logical flaw in the Augustinian reading: if Psalm 14 literally meant that not a single human being on Earth can ever do good or seek God in any capacity, David would be contradicting himself four verses later by speaking of "the generation of the righteous."
Click to expand...

God is with "the generation of the righteous", is defined in 3:19-31. Paul argues that this family line (generation) is not defined by physical DNA or perfect law-keeping, but by sharing the same faith as Abraham.


cv5 said:
Pastor Stephen A. Chronister (of Cliffside Community Chapel in Anchorage, Alaska) approaches Romans 3:10–11 by placing Paul’s words firmly in their original Old Testament context and reading them through a Christocentric, non-Calvinistic lens.

In his verse-by-verse teaching, Chronister directly challenges the Augustinian/Calvinistic doctrine of Total Depravity (the claim that fallen humans are spiritually "dead" to the degree that they are entirely incapable of seeking God or responding to the Gospel without prior, irresistible grace).

Here is how Chronister breaks down and exegetes this passage to refute fatalistic theology.

## 1. Restoring the Old Testament Context (Psalms 14 & 53)
The central pillar of Chronister’s exegesis is pointing out that Paul isn't constructing a systematic dogma about human inability—he is quoting Hebrew scripture (*a string of Old Testament passages, or catena*). Specifically, Romans 3:10–11 directly quotes **Psalm 14:1–3** (and its parallel, **Psalm 53:1–3**):
> *"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.' ... The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside..."*
>
Chronister highlights two key insights from this context:
* **Poetic Hyperbole vs. Ontological Inability:** David is describing the state of the *wicked fool* and the practical atheist who lives as if God doesn't exist, using Hebrew poetic hyperbole to emphasize how pervasive sin is in a corrupt society.
* **The Presence of the Righteous:** If you keep reading Psalm 14, David explicitly states in verse 5 that *"God is with the generation of the righteous."* Chronister points out the logical flaw in the Augustinian reading: if Psalm 14 literally meant that not a single human being on Earth can ever do good or seek God in any capacity, David would be contradicting himself four verses later by speaking of "the generation of the righteous."
Click to expand...

When Paul speaks in hyperbole, it's very obvious, like in 1 Corinthians 14:5 when he said "I wish you all spoke in languages/tongues." Then he contrasts that statement with a 'but' in the same verse. Compare to 1 Corinthians 12:29-30. Or when he said I wish you were all single not married, like him, in 1 Corinthians 7:7, but tempers that extreme example with 1 Corinthians 7:26.

I think Romans 3 reads best in it's simplest reading. It just needs the right context. There are none righteous. That's a label that only one can wear, God. To be righteous according to the Law, one must be perfect in his obedience to it. It's a justification statement. There are none good, is the necessary steps needed, albeit perfectly, to obtain that title of righteousness. Paul's point is that they cannot be righteous, because they cannot even do one step necessary to obtain that title, let alone a lifetime of perfect obedience. For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God makes that plain to see. "None who seek Him", that's the starting point. None who seek Him to begin being good (perfectly) to achieve the title of righteousness. I believe that statement is as is, none good from the flesh will honestly seek Him. That's why God draws people. In the OT, that presence, or light was limited to the Temple, Tabernacle, the Holy Spirit being upon certain Prophets. In the NT, every believer has that God in them, that's God living in us, that's His Word, that's the light (John 12:32). Look at Acts two, all the nations listed. Those were prostyles, and dispersed Jews believing the Gospel, and being indwelt, and taking that light to all those nations listed. It's the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham, that he would be father to all the nation through his Seed, Jesus Galatians 3.

That's all I have time for today.
 
PaulThomson said:
Therefore, “… upon receiving the penalty of death/mortality, all who later sin/sinned, sin/sinned.”
All who sin/sinned subsequent to Adam’s sin, sin/sinned because they have/had inherited mortality.
Click to expand...
Found in the context of Jesus "like His brothers," "made a little lower than the angels" like his brothers" Heb 2: 14-15 reflects this 'inherited sin,' or more succinctly, 'inherited fear of death' which, 'weakens us' toward the bondage of sin.

PaulThomson said:
Both need mercy for whatever sins they commit and to understand and seek God. The believer knows how to quickly access that grace and abides in assured forgiveness, but the unbeliever does not know whether God forgives him or not.
Click to expand...
And, not knowing whether God forgives him or not, adds to the fear that compelled him to sin in the first place, and there is more potential to snowball downhill from there.
 
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cv5 said:
## 2. Paul’s True Argument in Romans 3
Augustinian and Calvinist frameworks interpret Romans 3:10–11 as an assertion that human free will is entirely destroyed regarding spiritual matters. Chronister refutes this by pointing to Paul’s actual thesis in Romans 1–3:
* **Jews and Gentiles Are Equally Under Sin:** Paul’s objective in Romans 3:9 is establishing that **both Jews and Greeks are all under sin**. Jewish listeners believed their heritage and possession of the Torah exempted them from condemnation.
* **Using the Law Against Self-Righteousness:** Paul quotes the Jewish Bible (the Tanakh) back to a Jewish audience to prove that their own Scriptures condemn human self-righteousness. Paul’s point isn't "you physically cannot choose God," but rather "your legalism and heritage cannot save you, because by the standard of the Law, no one measures up as righteous."
Click to expand...

I agree, justification, which is a legal term, was Paul's focus. The "none who seeks God" statement is speaking of what man would do without that drawing of the Light. In the OT that drawing was limited, in the NT, it became more universal. While I would not go as far as todays Calvinism does, there is the idea that the light is needed to combat all the ills of the world that have made our hearing dull and our sight is naturally limited without the life in us.

I believe that light can be rejected, it's not a guaranteed end of salvation, called irresistible grace, as many of todays Calvinist's believe. The idea of irresistible grace comes from scripture speaking of true OT believers who were predestined to be NT believers, The only time God's grace is irresistible in Scripture. The drawing, I believe Jesus spoke about this when He talked about the light. He said to the disciples, believe while you have the light with you. He was speaking of Himself. The presence of God. John 12:35-36, John 1:4-9.

Even people who were judicially hardened, like the Jews, were told that if they repent and believe that they could be grafted back in as natural branches. We see those who were hardened, to fulfill Isaiah prophesy, yet Scripture follows with, "none the less, some believed."

I see a universal grace, that without it, none would seek God honestly, and is stated as "there are none who seek Him, in Romans 3. I think that the light, and all that it encompasses, God's presence and His Word, is the only way man will genuinely seek Him.

cv5 said:
## 3. Debunking Augustinian/Calvinist Fatalism
Chronister uses this exegetical foundation to dismantle several key assumptions of Reformed fatalism:
### A. The Absurdity of the "Command to Seek"
If "there is none who seeks after God" were an absolute, unchangeable law of human metaphysical inability post-Fall, God’s repeated commands across Scripture—such as *"Seek the Lord while He may be found"* (Isaiah 55:6)—would be nonsensical or disingenuous. Chronister emphasizes that God does not command people to do what He actively prevents or pre-ordains them from doing.
### B. Free Response vs. Divine Pre-Selection
Click to expand...

These are not good arguments. I try to stay away from stuff like this, because it's meant to push emotional buttons and appeal to the humanism that drives much of what is called Arminianism these days. God commands us to obey His Law perfectly, yet we cannot. It's that realization, that we cannot save ourselves, that pushes us to grace, to Jesus, to the Gospel. I think that God commands us to be Holy, because He is Holy, and could command nothing less. I don't think that I've ever heard the Bible say the words 'good enough' with regards to holiness, or justice (justification), etc. Maybe God must speak and command according to His perfect standards, His holiness, His character, His attributes?

cv5 said:
Reformed theology asserts that God unconditionally pre-selects who will respond to the Gospel and leaves the rest incapable of responding. Chronister rejects this, teaching that God’s grace is genuinely offered to all and that humans possess genuine moral agency to accept or reject God’s revelation. Sin distorts human nature and makes us prone to straying, but it does not reduce humanity to puppets governed by fatalistic pre-determination.

### C. Left to Ourselves vs. Drawn by Grace
Chronister notes that *left entirely to our own self-righteous devices*, humanity does not seek the true God—we construct idols or glorify ourselves. However, when God reveals Himself through His Word, Creation, and the Holy Spirit, individuals are enabled to respond. The phrase "there is none who seeks" describes humanity’s natural direction apart from God's initiative, not an insurmountable barrier that requires irresistible pre-determination.
Click to expand...

The one thing that is a wrench in the machinery here is God drawing us. I believe that it was a universal drawing in the OT, but limited, because God's presence was limited. In the NT, indwelt believers take that presence, and the Gospel to the whole world. So, if humanity will not seek God honestly (idolatry implied) as the comment says, then I believe that idea is combatted with the drawing (literally means to to drag, haul, or pull) but when applied to humans *could be* softened to more of a persuasion. When applied to people and spiritual realities, like God drawing people to Christ or Jesus drawing all people to Himself in John 12:32, lexicons define it as drawing by an inward power, leading, impel, or moving someone mentally and morally toward a value. The question is, can we seek Him honestly without this? Probably not, based on what I'm seeing in Scripture.

cv5 said:
> **Key Takeaway:** Chronister demonstrates that Augustinian Calvinism misapplies Paul's Old Testament quotation. Paul uses Psalm 14 to indict self-righteous legalists and show that all people need a Savior—not to teach that God pre-selects who goes to Heaven or Hell while stripping humanity of the ability to seek Him.
>
Click to expand...

The Bible teaches that the elect are elect from a position of guilt, not elect from a neutral spot, some selected for election, and some not selected. The old infra-supra debate. Dabney had it right. It's basically nonsense.

"In his Systematic and Polemic Theology, Robert L. Dabney famously stated that the infralapsarian and supralapsarian debate "is a question which ought never to have been raised". He argued that both schemes are ultimately illogical and fail to accurately represent how God's mind works, though he considered the infralapsarian view more honorable to God"


Election is in Christ. Jesus is elect. We become elect with Him when we are placed into Him.
 
Genez said:
In God's sight our present bodies were crucified. Dead. No longer rightfully ours.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved ​
me and gave himself for me.​
​
Galatians 2:20
Click to expand...

I think that Galatians 2:20 is speaking of our spiritually being crucified with Jesus, and then [implied] spiritually raised up with Him. Here's the other half of the equation.

Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

When we come to faith in Jesus Christ, Jesus places the Holy Spirit in us. That in turn places us into Him, the spiritual body, the One True Church. That also in turn places us into His death, and His resurrection, spiritually dying with Him (Galatians 2:20) and being raised up with Him (Ephesians 2:6), born again. Here's the whole picture.

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The physical resurrection comes later. Unless there is a second coming in our lifetime, we will all die with our current physical, dying bodies. If Jesus made our bodies new right now, we would never get sick or die. Our bodies would be without flaw, as it was intended before the fall.
 
Dave123 said:
Some verses to consider.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The "flesh", as I see it, is a description of all three, "spirit, soul, and body", all corrupted by sin. Dead, as the Bible says. (Ephesians 2:1, 2:5, Colossians 2:13, 1 Timothy 5:6, Romans 6:23). God is life, separated from Him we have no life, only death. When we are placed into Jesus, with the indwelling, we then have the Spirit in us, the life (Romans 8:9-11).
Click to expand...
If a sewer backs up in your neighborhood it will make everything in the neighborhood have a bad smell.
It may also be the cause for airborne diseases.

But your house is not the source for the bad odor.
The tree in your front yard is not the source either.
It is the sewer. The flesh is where the sin nature resides.
Yet, it can stink up body, soul, and spirit.

That's why I cited Romans 17:18a.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells;​

It is the flesh where the sin nature resides.
Where the sewer resides that can stink and back up into the entire neighborhood of who we are... body. soul, and spirit.
Our soul is not the flesh.
Our human spirit is not the flesh.

To clean up your neighborhood? Your body, soul, and spirit?
Sanctification is needed, by growing in grace and knowledge and walking in obedience.

Grace and peace....
 
Dave123 said:
In the NKJV (one of the reasons I like it), is that when the Bible is speaking of the Holy Spirit, it uses a capitol "S", and when it's speaking of our spirit, a small "s". It makes reading easier. As with anything, I'm sure it's not a perfect translation all the time, but for the most part, it's consistent.

Note: pneuma is identical, the distinction between the Holy Spirit and a person’s spirit relies entirely on the surrounding context (the grammar of the sentence, modifiers like "Holy" or "of God," and logical sense).

If you read those passages with that in mind, you'll see what Paul is saying.
Click to expand...

The original text was in ALL CAPS. So, the whole word in all cases was SPIRIT (PNEUMA), NOT Spirit (Pneuma) and spirit (pneuma).
 
PaulThomson said:
The original text was in ALL CAPS. So, the whole word in all cases was SPIRIT (PNEUMA), NOT Spirit (Pneuma) and spirit (pneuma).
Click to expand...

So, how was the reader supposed to know which spirit it was speaking of?

Evidently, they had to be theologically knowledgeable when translating?
 
Genez said:
So, how was the reader supposed to know which spirit it was speaking of?

Evidently, they had to be theologically knowledgeable when translating?
Click to expand...
Through conscience, listening to the Holy Spirit in them, sincerely seeking to know and do the will of God, epistemic humility, context, and trial and error.
 
PaulThomson said:
Through conscience, listening to the Holy Spirit in them, sincerely seeking to know and do the will of God, epistemic humility, context, and trial and error.
Click to expand...

We all need this.

Having to listen to corrections when they come.
And, giving correction when need be.
We are all parts of the same body.

God may give someone else the very thing we seek for.

That is why we should give and take correction as it comes from God.
Of course. I am speaking also to myself...
​
But He gives greater grace. Therefore, it says:​
“God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” James 4:6​
​
.......
 
PaulThomson said:
5:16 Λέγω δέ (But I am saying) πνεύματι (dtive singular, by/with/in/to/for spirit) περιπατεῖτε (present active imperative, keep on walking) καὶ (and) ἐπιθυμίαν (lust) σαρκὸς (of flesh/fleshly/carnal) οὐ μὴ (in no way) τελέσητε (aorist active subjunctive, you may not start fulfilling).
But I am saying: Keep on walking in/by means of spirit and you may not start fulfilling fleshly/carnal lust.

Paul is saying that we will not start sinning as long as we are maintaining a walk by/in spirit. If we stop walking by/in spirit, we will start to fall into sin.

5:17 ἡ γὰρ σὰρξ (the for flesh) ἐπιθυμεῖ (present active indicative, keeps on lusting) κατὰ (against) τοῦ πνεύματος (the spirit) τὸ δὲ (the but/and) πνεῦμα (spirit) κατὰ (against) τῆς σαρκός (the flesh). ταῦτα (these) δὲ (so/but) ἀντίκειται (present deponent indicative, keep on being contrary) ἀλλήλοις (to one another) ἵνα (so that/with the result that) μὴ (not) ἃ (them) ἂν (ever) θέλητε (present active subjunctive, you pl. may keep on being willing ) ταῦτα (those things) ποιῆτε (present active subjunctive, you pl. may keep on doing).
For the flesh keeps on lusting against the spirit, and the spirit keeps on lusting against the flesh. So these (i.e. the spirit and the flesh) keep on being contrary to one another, so that you (pl.), by no means, may keep on desiring/willing to keep on doing these things.

Paul is NOT saying here that it is impossible to ever do contrary to the flesh. He is saying that it is impossible ever to keep on doing that which is contrary to the flesh. We will all fall sometimes into sin. But, on the other hand, no one is locked into ceaselessly doing only sin.
Click to expand...

Galatians 5:16-18 is walking in the Holy Spirit as opposed to our flesh, not our spirit. That's the point. I gave an easy way to bypass all the abuses by using the NKJV, which makes the distinction between our spirit and the Holy Spirit. Use your Bible and the Holy Spirit. I only mentioned the Greek in passing and put very little value on it from the internet Greek commandos. Look at the context, it tells you plainly what spirit is being spoken of.

5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Then it goes on to contrast the difference between the works of the flesh, and the works of the Spirit, calling it the fruit of the Spirit.

5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Are we now removing ourselves from the Law, and producing fruit of our spirit? Of course not, that that's Holy Spirit.
 
Dave123 said:
Galatians 5:16-18 is walking in the Holy Spirit as opposed to our flesh, not our spirit. That's the point. I gave an easy way to bypass all the abuses by using the NKJV, which makes the distinction between our spirit and the Holy Spirit. Use your Bible and the Holy Spirit. I only mentioned the Greek in passing and put very little value on it from the internet Greek commandos. Look at the context, it tells you plainly what spirit is being spoken of.

5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Then it goes on to contrast the difference between the works of the flesh, and the works of the Spirit, calling it the fruit of the Spirit.

5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Are we now removing ourselves from the Law, and producing fruit of our spirit? Of course not, that that's Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
When we are born again we receive a perfect pure new spirit into which the Holy Spirit comes to abide. Therefore, for a Christian, their spirit is a faithful guide, being enlightened by the Holy Spirit in it.

Hence, for the born again believer, these verses are true, whether they refer to his own spirit, or the Holy Spirit in his own spirit.

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:18 But if you are led by spirit, you are not under the law.
5:25 If we live in spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

None of these texts have “the” before “spirit". But as I said, for the born again believer, from my perspective, walking in spirit, and walking in the Holy Spirit, are the same thing, since his own spirit is pure, holy and perfect, remade after the image of Christ. A born again Christian can also start walking in the false programming of their mind (which needs to be gradually renewed) and their flesh (which eschews self-sacrifice), instead of "in spirit”, and fall short of the glory of God.
 
PaulThomson said:
When we are born again we receive a perfect pure new spirit into which the Holy Spirit comes to abide. Therefore, for a Christian, their spirit is a faithful guide, being enlightened by the Holy Spirit in it.

Hence, for the born again believer, these verses are true, whether they refer to his own spirit, or the Holy Spirit in his own spirit.

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:18 But if you are led by spirit, you are not under the law.
5:25 If we live in spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

None of these texts have “the” before “spirit". But as I said, for the born again believer, from my perspective, walking in spirit, and walking in the Holy Spirit, are the same thing, since his own spirit is pure, holy and perfect, remade after the image of Christ. A born again Christian can also start walking in the false programming of their mind (which needs to be gradually renewed) and their flesh (which eschews self-sacrifice), instead of "in spirit”, and fall short of the glory of God.
Click to expand...

I want to get something straight here, please.

Are you saying that when we become born again?
We receive a pure new human spirit?
With that, I agree.

But, when you cite about being led by the "spirit?"
Are you meaning, the human spirit?
 
Dave123 said:
I agree, justification, which is a legal term, was Paul's focus. The "none who seeks God" statement is speaking of what man would do without that drawing of the Light. In the OT that drawing was limited, in the NT, it became more universal. While I would not go as far as todays Calvinism does, there is the idea that the light is needed to combat all the ills of the world that have made our hearing dull and our sight is naturally limited without the life in us.

I believe that light can be rejected, it's not a guaranteed end of salvation, called irresistible grace, as many of todays Calvinist's believe. The idea of irresistible grace comes from scripture speaking of true OT believers who were predestined to be NT believers, The only time God's grace is irresistible in Scripture. The drawing, I believe Jesus spoke about this when He talked about the light. He said to the disciples, believe while you have the light with you. He was speaking of Himself. The presence of God. John 12:35-36, John 1:4-9.

Even people who were judicially hardened, like the Jews, were told that if they repent and believe that they could be grafted back in as natural branches. We see those who were hardened, to fulfill Isaiah prophesy, yet Scripture follows with, "none the less, some believed."

I see a universal grace, that without it, none would seek God honestly, and is stated as "there are none who seek Him, in Romans 3. I think that the light, and all that it encompasses, God's presence and His Word, is the only way man will genuinely seek Him.



These are not good arguments. I try to stay away from stuff like this, because it's meant to push emotional buttons and appeal to the humanism that drives much of what is called Arminianism these days. God commands us to obey His Law perfectly, yet we cannot. It's that realization, that we cannot save ourselves, that pushes us to grace, to Jesus, to the Gospel. I think that God commands us to be Holy, because He is Holy, and could command nothing less. I don't think that I've ever heard the Bible say the words 'good enough' with regards to holiness, or justice (justification), etc. Maybe God must speak and command according to His perfect standards, His holiness, His character, His attributes?



The one thing that is a wrench in the machinery here is God drawing us. I believe that it was a universal drawing in the OT, but limited, because God's presence was limited. In the NT, indwelt believers take that presence, and the Gospel to the whole world. So, if humanity will not seek God honestly (idolatry implied) as the comment says, then I believe that idea is combatted with the drawing (literally means to to drag, haul, or pull) but when applied to humans *could be* softened to more of a persuasion. When applied to people and spiritual realities, like God drawing people to Christ or Jesus drawing all people to Himself in John 12:32, lexicons define it as drawing by an inward power, leading, impel, or moving someone mentally and morally toward a value. The question is, can we seek Him honestly without this? Probably not, based on what I'm seeing in Scripture.



The Bible teaches that the elect are elect from a position of guilt, not elect from a neutral spot, some selected for election, and some not selected. The old infra-supra debate. Dabney had it right. It's basically nonsense.

"In his Systematic and Polemic Theology, Robert L. Dabney famously stated that the infralapsarian and supralapsarian debate "is a question which ought never to have been raised". He argued that both schemes are ultimately illogical and fail to accurately represent how God's mind works, though he considered the infralapsarian view more honorable to God"


Election is in Christ. Jesus is elect. We become elect with Him when we are placed into Him.
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BTW, the fact that a deceived fallen Eve testified against crime boss gangsta Satan at the Genesis 3 trial conclusively debunks this total inability nonsense once and for all.

And did you know why God condemns the cowardly so noted in Rev 21?
Because they didn't, don't, won't. Do what little Eve had the COURAGE to do. Yes, sniveling cowards live their lives as Satan's pathetic henchmen until the day they die. Too bad for them. But good riddance !

[Rev 21:8 NKJV] 8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
 
PaulThomson said:
When we are born again we receive a perfect pure new spirit into which the Holy Spirit comes to abide. Therefore, for a Christian, their spirit is a faithful guide, being enlightened by the Holy Spirit in it.

Hence, for the born again believer, these verses are true, whether they refer to his own spirit, or the Holy Spirit in his own spirit.

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:18 But if you are led by spirit, you are not under the law.
5:25 If we live in spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Click to expand...
Hi Paul

These are two different spirits. One is you, the other is God. Romans 8:16, John 3:6

NKJV Galatians 5:16-18 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The "fruit" is Divine vs 22. Freedom from the Law vs. 18. Your spirit cannot do this. The fruit of the Spirit.

PaulThomson said:
None of these texts have “the” before “spirit".
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you would say that.

www.biblestudytools.com

Galatians 5:16 - Compare Bible Verse Translations

Compare Bible translations of Galatians 5:16 using all available Bible versions and commentary. "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh"
www.biblestudytools.com www.biblestudytools.com

PaulThomson said:
But as I said, for the born again believer, from my perspective, walking in spirit, and walking in the Holy Spirit, are the same thing, since his own spirit is pure, holy and perfect, remade after the image of Christ. A born again Christian can also start walking in the false programming of their mind (which needs to be gradually renewed) and their flesh (which eschews self-sacrifice), instead of "in spirit”, and fall short of the glory of God.
Click to expand...

People who are not saved can walk in the spirit, but are not able walk in the Spirit. His own Spirit is not remade after the image of Christ. I'll consider that an unintended error. Maybe your typing got ahead of your thoughts and you left something out in between? When we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, baptizing us into Christ, as a result of a genuine faith, only then do we begin to be perfected, or matured towards Christlikeness. The Holy Spirit working with our spirit does not make them the same.
 
cv5 said:
BTW, the fact that a deceived fallen Eve testified against crime boss gangsta Satan at the Genesis 3 trial conclusively debunks this total inability nonsense once and for all.

And did you know why God condemns the cowardly so noted in Rev 21?
Because they didn't, don't, won't. Do what little Eve had the COURAGE to do. Yes, sniveling cowards live their lives as Satan's pathetic henchmen until the day they die. Too bad for them. But good riddance !

[Rev 21:8 NKJV] 8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Click to expand...

By Gantsa standards, didn't Eve rat on Satan? Sounds like an argument against organized crime. :) But I agree. Eve didn't even have witness protection against Satan.

Dave
 
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Dave123 said:
I'm not sure why you would say that.
Click to expand...
I say -
PaulThomson said:
'None of these texts have “the” before “spirit” ', because the Greek text, which is what God inspired and gave us, does not have “the" before “spirit'. The NKJV is not the prfect word of god. It is an attempt to translate the Greek into modern English. But it is an attempt made by fallible men. IMO, they are not faithfully representing the scripture as God gave it. They are rephrasing those verses to make them appear to more clearly express their own theological opinions. This is the actual Greek.

5:16 Λέγω δέ (But I am saying) πνεύματι (dative singular, by/with/in/to/for spirit) περιπατεῖτε (present active imperative, keep on walking) καὶ (and) ἐπιθυμίαν (lust) σαρκὸς (of flesh/fleshly/carnal) οὐ μὴ (in no way) τελέσητε (aorist active subjunctive, you may not start fulfilling).
But I am saying: Keep on walking in/by means of spirit and you may not start fulfilling fleshly/carnal lust.

Paul is saying that we will not start sinning as long as we are maintaining a walk by/in spirit. If we stop walking by/in spirit, we will start to fall into sin.

5:17 ἡ γὰρ σὰρξ (the for flesh) ἐπιθυμεῖ (present active indicative, keeps on lusting) κατὰ (against) τοῦ πνεύματος (the spirit) τὸ δὲ (the but/and) πνεῦμα (spirit) κατὰ (against) τῆς σαρκός (the flesh). ταῦτα (these) δὲ (so/but) ἀντίκειται (present deponent indicative, keep on being contrary) ἀλλήλοις (to one another) ἵνα (so that/with the result that) μὴ (not) ἃ (them) ἂν (ever) θέλητε (present active subjunctive, you pl. may keep on being willing ) ταῦτα (those things) ποιῆτε (present active subjunctive, you pl. may keep on doing).
For the flesh keeps on lusting against the spirit, and the spirit keeps on lusting against the flesh. So these (i.e. the spirit and the flesh) keep on being contrary to one another, so that you (pl.), by no means, may keep on desiring/willing to keep on doing these things.
 
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