The grave first, then heaven. Surely you are not saying that Jesus promised the thief that he would be with Him in the grave? Or that Paul was talking about being absent from the body and present in the grave?
HOW CAN I BE 100% SURE THAT I WILL GO TO HEAVEN WHEN I DIE?
- Thread starter seymourclear
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That's bullocks. If Jesus were in heaven, how did he walk out of the grave, literally?
Not sure what male cows have to do with it. Anyway, how do you explain what Jesus said to the repentant thief? As to how Jesus walked out of the grave, surely you do believe that He rose from the dead, don't you? As John Gill commented on Luke 23:43:
"he was to enter upon that very day; which shows, that Christ's soul did not descend into hell, locally and literally considered, or into the "Limbus Patrum", the Papists talk of, to fetch the souls of the patriarchs thence, but as soon as it was separated from the body was taken up into heaven; and also, that the souls of departed saints are immediately, upon their separation from the body, there; which was the case of this wonderful instance of the grace of God; and shows the swiftness of the soul, or the velocity of angels in conveying it thither immediately."
Paradise is a side in Hades, the side for the saved, known as "Abraham's bosom", where Lazarus the beggar went. I do believe he went down to the grave, for he holds the key of Hades, " I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."
Well, I don't know about where you are, but here in the UK, that is a rude word referring to men's private parts. Apparently, it was not originally considered a rude word. Wycliffe used it in his translation of the Bible, in Leviticus 22:24, which forbids offering castrated animals as sacrifices to God: ""Al beeste, that ... kitt and taken awey the ballokes is, ye shulen not offre to the Lord ..." (I've just looked at your profile, and see that you are in the UK too).
Is it? Where does Scripture tell us that Paradise is part of Hades? Are you of the opinion that the rich man and Lazarus were simply in two parts of the same place?
Luk 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
Nowhere, as far as I know, are we told in the Bible that saved people go to heaven via Hades.
That's the only logical conclusion. Jesus most definitely descended into Hades, he holds the keys, he even preached to the disobedient spirits in there.
IMHO
I don't believe paradise exists anymore. I believe hell was enlarged. Jesus saved those who where in paradise. Abraham saw His day and was glad. They'll receive their bodies at the first resurection. I also believe the 144,000 that are coming are from the OT remnent. They are brothers and sisters in Christ as we've been grafted in thru faith (Jesus). I believe it's why the good book says the OT saints where saved "by faith" and the NT saints "thru faith". It's Jesus' faith that pleased the Father. If we have His faith, we could move mountains. That's a LOT of faith. There is ONE body and it belongs to the Lord Jesus.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Jesus quoted from Isaiah and said it is fullfilled...
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
I don't believe paradise exists anymore. I believe hell was enlarged. Jesus saved those who where in paradise. Abraham saw His day and was glad. They'll receive their bodies at the first resurection. I also believe the 144,000 that are coming are from the OT remnent. They are brothers and sisters in Christ as we've been grafted in thru faith (Jesus). I believe it's why the good book says the OT saints where saved "by faith" and the NT saints "thru faith". It's Jesus' faith that pleased the Father. If we have His faith, we could move mountains. That's a LOT of faith. There is ONE body and it belongs to the Lord Jesus.
Ephesians 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Jesus quoted from Isaiah and said it is fullfilled...
Isaiah 61
1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
Do you mean these verses:
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
1Pe 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
It doesn't say that the spirits were in Hades. It says the spirits were in prison. The Bible says that unsaved sinners are captives (prisoners) of the devil:
2Ti 2:26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
Jesus certainly preached to such captives, and made many of them free.
Yeah, and where they were? Hades. Jesus went down to Hades to set the captives free. “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”
THink about it in another way, Jesus was crucified, buried, risen, having lingered for 40 days, THEN ascended into heaven. What makes you think He ascended to heaven immediately after crucifixion? Then dropped all the way back and ascended to heaven again? Does that make any sense?
How to be 100% SURE I am going to heaven?:
Believing And Trusting, By [ heart ] faith In Both The LORD JESUS CHRIST,
................................... AND ..............................
In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided = ie:
1) With The Gift That God Gives us!:
God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance
--------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:
The Bible: The BIG Picture
Amen.
Believing And Trusting, By [ heart ] faith In Both The LORD JESUS CHRIST,
................................... AND ..............................
In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided = ie:
1) With The Gift That God Gives us!:
"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
(2 Timothy 1:7 AV)
+God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance
--------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:
The Bible: The BIG Picture
Amen.
If these verses are not in need of "additions or modifications" then comments such as (rightly understood) would not be needed.
This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for cheap grace salvationists to ACCEPT.
Faith without obedience is dead. Believing you are saved because you claim to believe is foolishness.
And this is at the core of faith alone regeneration theology.
Salvation through faith rightly understood IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE (Romans 4:5-6) needs to be clarified for works-salvionists because all they understand is "faith only" per James 2:24 which is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. (James 2:14) Unlike living faith that produces good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
Unlike works-salvationists, I understand the truth about salvation through faith, not works just fine.
Faith that produces no obedience demonstrates that its an empty profession of faith and not living faith.
That is foolishness. We must actually believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation in order to be saved and not merely "claim" to believe.
You still don't understand what is meant by salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
The Sacrifice of Jesus Planned Before the Foundation
These verses reveal that Jesus acting as the ultimate "Red Heifer" and Passover Lamb was Not a backup plan. God knew man would fall into the defilement of death, and He chose the solution before time began.
These verses reveal that Jesus acting as the ultimate "Red Heifer" and Passover Lamb was Not a backup plan. God knew man would fall into the defilement of death, and He chose the solution before time began.
- 1 Peter 1:19–20
- Revelation 13:8
Believers Chosen and Cleansed Before the Foundation
- Ephesians 1:4
- 2 Timothy 1:9
The Eternal Sabbath Rest Prepared Before the Foundation
- Hebrews 4:3
- Matthew 25:34
The Glory of Jesus Before the Foundation
- John 17:24
Summary of the Blueprint
- Before Day 1: God chooses you, ordains Jesus as the unblemished sacrifice, and completes the blueprint for Eternal Rest.
- Day 1 to Day 7: God creates the universe, lights it with His glory, sets up the sun and moon to track time, and institutes the Sabbath.
- The Levitical Era: The High Priests perform Exhausting, endless work with Red Heifers + Ash and lambs because the people cannot maintain the cleanness Requires for Rest.
- The Cross: Jesus steps into History, dies oyutside the gate, finishes the Purification work, and Sits down.
- Eternity: The sun and moon are Retired. The original Day 1 light Returns, and cleansed believers enter the Rest prepared for them Before the Foundation of the World.
- Here is A foundation to know & grow
- orig end to bigiging to end
- Imagine that End up at The Being
It is rather hard to understand a theology that is forced to shoe horn the defining word of their narrative "alone" into every verse that is used to defend it.
A theology that is forced to ignore scriptures that demand obedience in order to harmonize their reasoning.
There is no "ALONE" in your verse and this is the blindness in your reasoning.
This is a generality written to the already saved and cannot be used to ignore other scriptures.
Lamar is correct you are simply a cheap grace salvationist.
So if it is wrong to say faith in Christ alone, where else should our faith be placed? The Bible tells us:
NKJV Act 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
I would say that we are saved by grace through faith, as Ephesians 2 says. It also specifies that we are not saved by works. Good works are prepared by God for Christians to walk in.
Amen brother! As I said before, this is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to accept. When we say salvation through faith in Jesus Christ ALONE, the only thing that works-salvationists hear is, "saved by a dead faith that remains alone/barren of works/cheap grace" etc.. which is NOT what we are saying. The blindness is on them.
Until the blinders are removed, both you and Lamar will not understand.
