OSAS origins and comparison

timf · Aug 13, 2026

The"good news" of Paul? I don't find that in my Bible.

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Act_20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Bible_Locket · Aug 13, 2026

Romans 2:16
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Romans 16:25
"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began..."

2 Timothy 2:8
"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel..."

DavidLamb · Aug 14, 2026

timf said:
The"good news" of Paul? I don't find that in my Bible.

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Act_20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

"Good news" is what the word gospel means. Paul often talks of the gospel in his letters. For example:

NKJV Rom 1:15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also.

1Co 9:16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!

1Th 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

There are many other references in Paul's writings to the good news, the gospel.

2Christ · Aug 14, 2026

Bible_Locket said:
We are then sealed the moment we believe.
Because God's holy spirit enters in and allows us to understand his Gospel.
Which is the only way we are ever able to understand and believe it.

And in that moment ,as God says,we are sealed by his will. A permanent guarantee of our eternal inheritance.

It is never broken. It is never cancelled. It is irrevocable because Omniscient God,who knew us before the womb and wrote our name in his Lamb's Book of Eternal Life,before he created this world.

Any teaching that insists we can remove his seal by our choice or behavior and return to the state of sinner damned in sin and spiritually dead,is a lie.

The Bible does teach that God's people are sealed, and the Holy Spirit is God's gift and mark upon those who belong to Him. But we must be careful not to add to what Scripture actually says.

Jesus never taught that once a person believes, nothing he does afterward can ever affect his relationship with God. Instead, Jesus repeatedly told His followers to remain in Him, keep His words, bear fruit, overcome, and endure to the end.

Jesus said, “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me” (John 15:4, NKJV).

Then He gave an even stronger warning: “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:6, NKJV).

So the question is not whether Satan can break God's seal. Of course he cannot. The question is whether a person who has received God's Spirit must continue to abide in Christ. Jesus says that we must.

Jesus also said, “But he who endures to the end shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13, NKJV).

And look at the Book of Life. Jesus said, “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life” (Revelation 3:5, NKJV).

Notice the words: “He who overcomes.” The promise is connected with overcoming and remaining faithful.

Jesus also said, “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10, NKJV).

Therefore, God's seal should never be turned into a teaching that says our future choices no longer matter. God gives us His Spirit, but Jesus tells us to remain in Him. God gives the promise, but Jesus tells us to endure. God offers eternal life, but Jesus warns us not to turn away.

The Bible never teaches that we can break God's seal by our own power. The final judgment belongs to God. But neither does Jesus teach that a person can receive the Spirit and then abandon Him without consequence.

The message is much simpler: Believe in Christ, receive His Spirit, remain in Him, keep His words, bear fruit, overcome, and endure to the end.

The security is not found in saying, “I believed once, therefore nothing I do afterward matters.” Our security is found in continuing to walk with Christ and remaining faithful to Him until the end.

i will post about seals in more details in a new thread

Dave123 · Aug 14, 2026

2Christ said:
The Bible does teach that God's people are sealed, and the Holy Spirit is God's gift and mark upon those who belong to Him. But we must be careful not to add to what Scripture actually says.

Jesus never taught that once a person believes, nothing he does afterward can ever affect his relationship with God. Instead, Jesus repeatedly told His followers to remain in Him, keep His words, bear fruit, overcome, and endure to the end.

Jesus said, “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me” (John 15:4, NKJV).

Then He gave an even stronger warning: “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:6, NKJV).

So the question is not whether Satan can break God's seal. Of course he cannot. The question is whether a person who has received God's Spirit must continue to abide in Christ. Jesus says that we must.

Jesus also said, “But he who endures to the end shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13, NKJV).

And look at the Book of Life. Jesus said, “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life” (Revelation 3:5, NKJV).

Notice the words: “He who overcomes.” The promise is connected with overcoming and remaining faithful.

Jesus also said, “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10, NKJV).

Therefore, God's seal should never be turned into a teaching that says our future choices no longer matter. God gives us His Spirit, but Jesus tells us to remain in Him. God gives the promise, but Jesus tells us to endure. God offers eternal life, but Jesus warns us not to turn away.

The Bible never teaches that we can break God's seal by our own power. The final judgment belongs to God. But neither does Jesus teach that a person can receive the Spirit and then abandon Him without consequence.

The message is much simpler: Believe in Christ, receive His Spirit, remain in Him, keep His words, bear fruit, overcome, and endure to the end.

The security is not found in saying, “I believed once, therefore nothing I do afterward matters.” Our security is found in continuing to walk with Christ and remaining faithful to Him until the end.

i will post about seals in more details in a new thread

If you have the Spirit indwelling, you are in Christ and justified and born again. For one to lose salvation, one must then lose the Spirit of God indwelling, God's seal. That cannot happen. It doesn't matter how, it cannot happen.

All the verses that you posted should be seen as things that saved people do, evidences. This is because none of those things can justify us. Remember, when we're placed into Christ, it's a done deal (John 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39, Titus 3:5). The evidences may need to play out over time, but we're justified in Christ, and the Spirit of God in us will mature us to Christlikeness. When one doesn't do those things, that's an evidence that they're not saved. Nobody is losing anything, except an illusions that they may have had.

Nobody is saying to not obey God. That's a red herring.

Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

If man fails, and he loses the Spirit of Christ indwelling, then God's seal has been broken by man. That cannot happen.

"Abide in Him" Evidence.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

"You can tell a tree by the fruit". That's what Jesus said. That's an evidence statement. The tree makes the fruit, evidencing what kind of tree it is. A good tree makes good fruit, and a bad tree makes bad fruit.

"he who overcomes"

1 John 5:4-5 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

If you have eternal life, one doesn't receive more of it when we die.

Our security is found in Jesus, not our ability to obey Him.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

randyk · Aug 14, 2026

Dave123 said:
If you have the Spirit indwelling, you are in Christ and justified and born again. For one to lose salvation, one must then lose the Spirit of God indwelling, God's seal. That cannot happen. It doesn't matter how, it cannot happen.

All the verses that you posted should be seen as things that saved people do, evidences. This is because none of those things can justify us. Remember, when we're placed into Christ, it's a done deal (John 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39, Titus 3:5). The evidences may need to play out over time, but we're justified in Christ, and the Spirit of God in us will mature us to Christlikeness. When one doesn't do those things, that's an evidence that they're not saved. Nobody is losing anything, except an illusions that they may have had.

Nobody is saying to not obey God. That's a red herring.

Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

If man fails, and he loses the Spirit of Christ indwelling, then God's seal has been broken by man. That cannot happen.

"Abide in Him" Evidence.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

"You can tell a tree by the fruit". That's what Jesus said. That's an evidence statement. The tree makes the fruit, evidencing what kind of tree it is. A good tree makes good fruit, and a bad tree makes bad fruit.

"he who overcomes"

1 John 5:4-5 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

If you have eternal life, one doesn't receive more of it when we die.

Our security is found in Jesus, not our ability to obey Him.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

I'm Predestinarian period--let me get that out of the way. But the issue goes deeper than Justified once and then "things work out over time." What I think is really going on is the question of whether people who become Christians commit fully to Christ or not. I do believe that people can become Christians, obtain a variety of spiritual gifts, evidence some Christian traits, without showing the true fruit of Christian Salvation.

The Scriptures, particularly Paul and Peter, call for Nominal Christians who have a variety of Christian gifts to "prove their Election." What this means to me is that the genuine fruit of Christian Salvation goes deeper than a display of Christian gifts.

The true fruit of Christian Salvation is a complete transformation of character, which we often call Regeneration or Rebirth. A full commitment will result not just in receiving the Spirit, but much more, an acceptance of the Spirit as a permanent indwelling gift, transforming our entire character from selfishness to God-dependence.

So, those who truly commit fully to Christ obtain the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and not only display Christian gifts, but also display the Christian fruit of complete transformation of character. For us, that may become apparent only over time.

But in my opinion it begins when one makes an initial commitment that results in true Christian fruit, resulting in a complete change in character. At that point I don't think there's any turning back. We've turned the steering wheel completely over to Christ, and he will not lead us astray. My view only....

GRACE_ambassador · Aug 14, 2026

2Christ said:
The Bible never teaches that we can break God's seal by our own power. The final judgment belongs to God. But neither does Jesus teach that a person can receive the Spirit and then abandon Him without consequence.

Precious friend, do you mean "without the consequence of Eternal damnation? Or, Biblically:

1) grieving God?: Ephesians 4:30 AV "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Question: How is Eternal condemnation True If this verse is false?

2) quenching God?: 1 Thessalonians 5:19 AV) "Quench not the Spirit."

Q: God Leaves the Grace believer? and, see above question?

But Still Eternally Saved Because Of [ Security IN: ] These Vast Multitude of Confirming Scriptures?:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

--------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

GRACE_ambassador · Aug 14, 2026

randyk said:
What I think is really going on is the question of whether people who become Christians commit fully to Christ or not.

Precious friend, appreciate you sharing "your view". Question is: do we believe those who "did not commit
fully" are Eternally Condemned, Or, as our Body of Christ Judgment At Christ's Bema Seat Shows For:

Both the "faithful and Unfaithful" members of His Body, The Following?:

The Judgment Seat Of Christ:

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall

receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers

together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

According to The Grace Of God Which Is Given Unto me, as a wise masterbuilder,

I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth Thereon. But let every man take

heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that

is laid, Which Is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay,

stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The Day Shall Declare it, because

it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any [ Fully Committed faithful? ] man's work abide which he hath built Thereupon,

he shall receive a reward.

If any { Unfaithful? } man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself

Shall Be Saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)

Amen.

NightTwister · Aug 14, 2026

timf said:
The"good news" of Paul? I don't find that in my Bible.

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Act_20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

The gospel is the Good News of Jesus Christ, not Paul. It's the one gospel that was, is, and always will be.

randyk · Aug 14, 2026

GRACE_ambassador said:
Precious friend, appreciate you sharing "your view". Question is: do we believe those who "did not commit
fully" are Eternally Condemned,

To answer, no, I do not believe those who did not commit fully are eternally condemned of necessity. Those who do not fully commit are those who eventually will fully commit as well as those who never will fully commit. The important thing, in terms of Salvation, is to fully commit at some point.

GRACE_ambassador said:
Or, as our Body of Christ Judgment At Christ's Bema Seat Shows For:

Both the "faithful and Unfaithful" members of His Body, The Following?:

The Judgment Seat Of Christ

A full commitment to Christ does not entail perfection. It only requires a genuine commitment to the principle that Christ is our Savior, in place of trying to earn Salvation on our own.

A full commitment to him being the source of our Salvation is sufficient to qualify for a "full commitment." It does not require a full commitment in the sense of moral perfection. It does not mean a person cannot backslide.

Even some of those who backslide had ultimately made a full commitment if they had truly adopted Christ as the basis of their Salvation. This is not purely an intellectual application of the will, but more, both an intellectual, emotional, and spiritual application of the will. It cannot, in my view, be undone, regardless of how backslidden a genuine Christian may become.

Those who make a full commitment still have a responsibility to live out their commitment. Few actually do, though I believe those who had made a full commitment will still be saved. Those who had not made a complete commitment will benefit from the partial commitment they made, but will not be saved on the basis of a partial commitment.

2Christ · Aug 14, 2026

Dave123 said:
If you have the Spirit indwelling, you are in Christ and justified and born again. For one to lose salvation, one must then lose the Spirit of God indwelling, God's seal. That cannot happen. It doesn't matter how, it cannot happen.

All the verses that you posted should be seen as things that saved people do, evidences. This is because none of those things can justify us. Remember, when we're placed into Christ, it's a done deal (John 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39, Titus 3:5). The evidences may need to play out over time, but we're justified in Christ, and the Spirit of God in us will mature us to Christlikeness. When one doesn't do those things, that's an evidence that they're not saved. Nobody is losing anything, except an illusions that they may have had.

Nobody is saying to not obey God. That's a red herring.

Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

If man fails, and he loses the Spirit of Christ indwelling, then God's seal has been broken by man. That cannot happen.

"Abide in Him" Evidence.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

"You can tell a tree by the fruit". That's what Jesus said. That's an evidence statement. The tree makes the fruit, evidencing what kind of tree it is. A good tree makes good fruit, and a bad tree makes bad fruit.

"he who overcomes"

1 John 5:4-5 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

If you have eternal life, one doesn't receive more of it when we die.

Our security is found in Jesus, not our ability to obey Him.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

Your argument is problematic and assumes the very thing it is trying to prove: that receiving the Spirit makes final salvation impossible to lose. Jesus never said that.

You say that “abide in Him,” “keep His commandments,” and “overcome” are only evidence of salvation. But Jesus gives these as real conditions, not merely evidence. Jesus said: “Abide in Me, and I in you.” (John 15:4) Then He gave a serious warning:

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire.” (John 15:6)

You cannot simply say this person was never really in Christ. Jesus describes the branch as being in Him, and then warns what happens if it does not abide. Jesus also said: “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love.” (John 15:10) That is not merely evidence. Jesus connects obedience with continuing to abide in Him.

The same is true of overcoming: "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life.”(Revelation 3:5) Why would Jesus say “he who overcomes” if overcoming were simply an automatic sign that someone was already guaranteed salvation?

And Jesus also said: "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13) He did not say that endurance is merely evidence of a salvation that is already unconditionally guaranteed.

You say God's seal cannot be broken. I agree. Man cannot simply break God's seal by his own power. But that does not prove that a person can never turn away from Christ. The Bible never says that receiving the Spirit makes apostasy impossible.

Look at Jesus' own words:

“If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)

And: “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.” (Revelation 2:10)

That is not salvation by works. Obedience does not purchase salvation. It is the faithful response Jesus requires from those who follow Him.

Our security is in Christ, absolutely. But being secure in Christ is not the same as being told that we may abandon Christ and still receive the same final outcome.

Jesus said clearly: Abide. Keep My commandments. Overcome. Endure to the end. Be faithful until death.

We should not explain away those words simply because they do not fit the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved.

Dave123 · Aug 15, 2026

2Christ said:
Your argument is problematic and assumes the very thing it is trying to prove: that receiving the Spirit makes final salvation impossible to lose. Jesus never said that.

But He did say that, and I quote the Scripture. Here's a reminder of the most profound one that I can think of.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

You're trying to make grace something that is maintained, or earned, making it a works based salvation, earning grace, which is an oxymoron. Evidences do not earn, or maintain, they only reveal. To maintain grace is to earn grace. To maintain grace is Catholic, albeit they believe that they maintain grace through the sacraments and works. Grace, is unmerited favor. Your works can only reveal, not justify or un-justify.

2Christ said:
You say that “abide in Him,” “keep His commandments,” and “overcome” are only evidence of salvation. But Jesus gives these as real conditions, not merely evidence. Jesus said: “Abide in Me, and I in you.” (John 15:4) Then He gave a serious warning:

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire.” (John 15:6)

You cannot simply say this person was never really in Christ. Jesus describes the branch as being in Him, and then warns what happens if it does not abide. Jesus also said: “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love.” (John 15:10) That is not merely evidence. Jesus connects obedience with continuing to abide in Him.

I don't believe that anyone was "in Christ" without the NT indwelling. Abiding in Christ needed the baptism with the Holy Spirit which "places us into Him". Anyways, temper John 15:4 with these...

Matthew 7:16-20 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Luke 6:43-45 "For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

(see---1 John 2:19)

2Christ said:
The same is true of overcoming: "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life.” (Revelation 3:5) Why would Jesus say “he who overcomes” if overcoming were simply an automatic sign that someone was already guaranteed salvation? And Jesus also said: "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13) He did not say that endurance is merely evidence of a salvation that is already unconditionally guaranteed.

Who is he who overcomes?

1 John 5:4-5 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

I think that you may have missed the significance of Revelation 3:5. It's not a great threat, but a great promise. That's eternal security. Connect the dots. Who are those who overcome? True believers who are born again (that happens the moment they believe and are placed into Christ (1 John 5:4-5)). Who are clothed in white garment (Revelation 3:5)? Those who overcome (1 John 3:5). Who's names are *not* blotted out from the book of life (Revelation 3:5)? Those who are born again (1 John 5:4-5). Those who trust in Jesus. Only those will overcome, only those will be clothed in white garment.

2Christ said:
You say God's seal cannot be broken. I agree. Man cannot simply break God's seal by his own power. But that does not prove that a person can never turn away from Christ. The Bible never says that receiving the Spirit makes apostasy impossible.

Look at Jesus' own words:

“If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)

And: “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.” (Revelation 2:10)

And who will keep His commandments? Who will be faithful to the end?

John 15: He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

1 John 2:3-5 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

Here's more context to 1 John 5

1 John 5:1-5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

These are evidences, and should not be seen as merit/justification maintainers and/or earners.

Dave

2Christ · Aug 15, 2026

Dave123 said:
But He did say that, and I quote the Scripture. Here's a reminder of the most profound one that I can think of.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

You're trying to make grace something that is maintained, or earned, making it a works based salvation, earning grace, which is an oxymoron. Evidences do not earn, or maintain, they only reveal. To maintain grace is to earn grace. To maintain grace is Catholic, albeit they believe that they maintain grace through the sacraments and works. Grace, is unmerited favor. Your works can only reveal, not justify or un-justify.

I don't believe that anyone was "in Christ" without the NT indwelling. Abiding in Christ needed the baptism with the Holy Spirit which "places us into Him". Anyways, temper John 15:4 with these...

Matthew 7:16-20 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Luke 6:43-45 "For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

(see---1 John 2:19)

Who is he who overcomes?

1 John 5:4-5 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

I think that you may have missed the significance of Revelation 3:5. It's not a great threat, but a great promise. That's eternal security. Connect the dots. Who are those who overcome? True believers who are born again (that happens the moment they believe and are placed into Christ (1 John 5:4-5)). Who are clothed in white garment (Revelation 3:5)? Those who overcome (1 John 3:5). Who's names are *not* blotted out from the book of life (Revelation 3:5)? Those who are born again (1 John 5:4-5). Those who trust in Jesus. Only those will overcome, only those will be clothed in white garment.

And who will keep His commandments? Who will be faithful to the end?

John 15: He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

1 John 2:3-5 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

Here's more context to 1 John 5

1 John 5:1-5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

These are evidences, and should not be seen as merit/justification maintainers and/or earners.

Dave

So Dave what will you do? you have to decide, time is short. ill just tell you this, take every word Jesus said very seriouly and do what he asks, your eternal life depends on it. His message never changed and never will.

Dave123 · Aug 15, 2026

2Christ said:
So Dave what will you do? you have to decide, time is short. ill just tell you this, take every word Jesus said very seriously and do what he asks, your eternal life depends on it. His message never changed and never will.

You're right, our eternal life depends on it. Obedience, or lack of, is not the question at hand. It's the motives, what or who do you trust in. Motive will determine outcome.

"Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

From Charles Spurgeon.

"It is ever the Holy Spirit's work to turn our eyes away from self to Jesus; but Satan's work is just the opposite of this, for he is constantly trying to make us regard ourselves instead of Christ. He insinuates, "Your sins are too great for pardon; you have no faith; you do not repent enough; you will never be able to continue to the end; you have not the joy of his children; you have such a wavering hold of Jesus." All these are thoughts about self, and we shall never find comfort or assurance by looking within. But the Holy Spirit turns our eyes entirely away from self: he tells us we are nothing, but that "Christ is All in All." Remember, therefore, it is not your hold of Christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not your joy in Christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not even faith in Christ, thought that be the instrument--it is Christ's blood and merits; therefore, look not so much to your hand with which you art grasping Christ, as to Christ; look not to your hope, but to Jesus, the source of your hope; look not to your faith, but to Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith. We shall never find happiness by looking at our prayers, our doings, or our feelings; it is what Jesus is, not what we are, that gives rest to the soul. If we would at once overcome Satan and have peace with God, it must be by "looking unto Jesus." Keep your eye simply on him; let his death, his sufferings, his merits, his glories, his intercession, be fresh upon your mind; when you wake in the morning look to him; when you lie down at night look to him. Do not let your hopes and fears come between you and Jesus; follow hard after him, and he will never fail you."" -- Charles Spurgeon

2Christ · Aug 15, 2026

Dave123 said:
You're right, our eternal life depends on it. Obedience, or lack of, is not the question at hand. It's the motives, what or who do you trust in. Motive will determine outcome.

"Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

From Charles Spurgeon.

"It is ever the Holy Spirit's work to turn our eyes away from self to Jesus; but Satan's work is just the opposite of this, for he is constantly trying to make us regard ourselves instead of Christ. He insinuates, "Your sins are too great for pardon; you have no faith; you do not repent enough; you will never be able to continue to the end; you have not the joy of his children; you have such a wavering hold of Jesus." All these are thoughts about self, and we shall never find comfort or assurance by looking within. But the Holy Spirit turns our eyes entirely away from self: he tells us we are nothing, but that "Christ is All in All." Remember, therefore, it is not your hold of Christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not your joy in Christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not even faith in Christ, thought that be the instrument--it is Christ's blood and merits; therefore, look not so much to your hand with which you art grasping Christ, as to Christ; look not to your hope, but to Jesus, the source of your hope; look not to your faith, but to Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith. We shall never find happiness by looking at our prayers, our doings, or our feelings; it is what Jesus is, not what we are, that gives rest to the soul. If we would at once overcome Satan and have peace with God, it must be by "looking unto Jesus." Keep your eye simply on him; let his death, his sufferings, his merits, his glories, his intercession, be fresh upon your mind; when you wake in the morning look to him; when you lie down at night look to him. Do not let your hopes and fears come between you and Jesus; follow hard after him, and he will never fail you."" -- Charles Spurgeon

Dave, the motive is love. The rest flows consequently, like water flowing in its riverbed

Dave123 · Aug 17, 2026

2Christ said:
Dave, the motive is love. The rest flows consequently, like water flowing in its riverbed

I agree

But when we see our works as a vehicle for being justified, or not, or even maintaining the gift of grace from God, then love cannot be the motive. Obedience, the Law, is a burden, rather than the freedom that grace offers. Our actions become debt. Under grace, we know that we're already accepted by what Jesus did. Only then can true Biblical love thrive. It's only resting in God's grace that can transform our motives.

To quote someone else....

"The abundant life Jesus promised flows not from striving harder under the law, but from resting deeply in His grace."

Dave

dkontner · Aug 17, 2026

John 8

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

2Christ · Aug 17, 2026

Dave123 said:
I agree

But when we see our works as a vehicle for being justified, or not, or even maintaining the gift of grace from God, then love cannot be the motive. Obedience, the Law, is a burden, rather than the freedom that grace offers. Our actions become debt. Under grace, we know that we're already accepted by what Jesus did. Only then can true Biblical love thrive. It's only resting in God's grace that can transform our motives.

To quote someone else....

"The abundant life Jesus promised flows not from striving harder under the law, but from resting deeply in His grace."

Dave

You have chosen.

Where did Jesus say that once a person has received grace, obedience to His commandments is no longer required? His own words say, “If you love Me, keep My commandments,” “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments,” and “he who does the will of My Father in heaven” will enter the kingdom. Whatever theology we build around grace, it must first agree with the plain words of Jesus.

if you do not believe this there is no point to continue.

Bible_Locket · Aug 17, 2026

Dave123 said:
I agree

But when we see our works as a vehicle for being justified, or not, or even maintaining the gift of grace from God, then love cannot be the motive.

Precisely so. Which is the platform works based reprieve launches from. Which is why those proponents insist we are not eternally Saved by God's grace.
Using, ODAS, as a pejorative so to drive their point.

Dave123 said:
Obedience, the Law, is a burden, rather than the freedom that grace offers. Our actions become debt. Under grace, we know that we're already accepted by what Jesus did. Only then can true Biblical love thrive. It's only resting in God's grace that can transform our motives.

To quote someone else....

"The abundant life Jesus promised flows not from striving harder under the law, but from resting deeply in His grace."

Dave

randyk · Aug 17, 2026

I very much apologize for copying my post off of the Forum that banned my free expression. I've encountered no such prohibition on this particular Forum!

The reason I'm copying my original post off of the Forum I had been posting on was precisely because they were allowing only one perspective to be given. I was heavily censored, had my posts deleted or edited, and was told to confine my comments to the "Unorthodox" part of the Forum.

Again, if I could edit I would remove the part of my original post that suggested I'm being censored here. Much apologies!

OSAS origins and comparison

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John 8​

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John 8