Is Salvation an event or a process?

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Sanctification is also a means for testing.


Sanctification is the act of becoming holy. The law is considered holy.

So obedience is part of sanctification and just how God tested the Israelites obedience, God tests ours. So if God is testing something, that does not mean it's up to par yet. Look at all the Revelation letters and how they're accused of not being obedient, holding doctrine of demons and the warning that if they don't repent and turn, they will be removed. That does not mean these churches are saved, far from it... So you cannot have salvation without testing and that includes Sanctification being tested.
God tests obedience — but never to determine salvation.
God tests obedience,
Israel tested in the wilderness — Deut 8:2
Abraham tested — Gen 22:1
Believers tested — 1 Pet 1:7
Faith tested — James 1:3
But God never tests to decide salvation.
Why? Because salvation is:
given at belief (John 6:47)
sealed at belief (Eph 1:13)
justified at belief (Rom 5:1)
union with Christ at belief (1 Cor 12:13)
Testing happens after salvation, not before.
Testing reveals the quality of sanctification, not the status of justification.
You said, “Look at the Revelation letters… they’re accused of not being obedient… if they don’t repent they will be removed.” These churches are already called “lampstands”
Revelation 1:20 They are already Christ’s churches. Christ threatens discipline, not loss of salvation Revelation 2–3 contains:
rebuke
warning
discipline
consequences
removal of witness
judgment on works
But never:
“you will lose salvation”
“you were never saved”
“your justification is in danger”
The warnings are about, losing lampstand status, losing witness, losing influence, losing protection, losing fellowship, losing reward
Not losing salvation.
You said, “If God is testing something, that does not mean it’s up to par yet.”
Correct — but that applies to sanctification, not salvation.
Testing reveals, maturity, obedience, perseverance, faithfulness, purity, endurance.
Testing does not reveal:
whether salvation is real
whether justification is valid
whether the Spirit indwells
whether Christ knows them
Those things are already settled at belief.
Israel was, chosen, redeemed, delivered, covenanted, God’s people, before they were tested. Testing did not determine whether they were God’s people. Testing revealed whether they were obedient as God’s people. Same pattern in the New Testament.
Sanctification is tested — justification is not. Justification (salvation), Sanctification (obedience).
Testing is for the saved, not to decide who is saved.
 
No, But the Holy Spirit acts before repentance

Externally! You've changed your mind and are now saying the Holy spirit is given internally, even before repentance.

We haven't even got to the parable of the sower yet, the testing grounds, where 3 out of those 4 soils fail.
If your theology is correct, those 3 that fail will fail with the Holy spirit in them.

Im sure thats not going to go over well with the others in your corner.
 
Externally! You've changed your mind and are now saying the Holy spirit is given internally, even before repentance.

We haven't even got to the parable of the sower yet, the testing grounds, where 3 out of those 4 soils fail.
If your theology is correct, those 3 that fail will fail with the Holy spirit in them.

Im sure thats not going to go over well with the others in your corner.

No — I have not changed my mind.

The Holy Spirit is never given internally before repentance and faith. Only His external work happens before repentance.
 
Like most people, Marx was flawed, not a demon in the flesh or a visionary who would introduce utopia. While he railed against money as being evil, he sponged off his family. He put part of a bequest into speculative stocks. It's easy to come up with concepts but reality often gets in the way. Communism, socialism and capitalism all are flawed. At least capitalism gives people the right to vote.

God's way is neither communist, socialist or capitalist. The first city was built by the murderer Cain. Cities are only necessary because of man's sinful nature. Cities are oppressive.
Perhaps the real "lesson" is that we are citizens in God's kingdom. It has nothing to do with human politics. Every time we attempt to graft on God's Kingdom to a human political/ethic/values - The Kingdom of God is debased. Souls are lost, the innocent crushed and morality becomes whatever is needed to fuel the desires of the powerful. Taking in the Inquisition, the 30 yrs war and the vast depredations on the old world on the new, multiple million have been murdered/killed when the politically powerful used Christianity as a banner of war and conquest. Long long before Marx was born.
 
Scripture does not teach an altar where surrender is tested before saving faith exists.
Your model:
Created condition
Father calls
External Spirit work
Human surrender
Surrender tested
God accepts surrender
THEN saving faith happens

Scripture’s model:
Created condition
Father calls
Spirit regenerates (internal)
Human repentance + faith (pisteuō)
Immediate justification
Indwelling Spirit
Lifelong sanctification
Your model inserts an intermediate altar between regeneration and faith that Scripture does not contain.

Isn't this your understanding? The scriptures model.?
 
In this post I'm going to present all the biblical happenings that must happen, and happen in the right order in the salvation process or journey.

This will make better sense to you if you first read the rediscovering pisteuo thread, and the A,B,Cs, of faith and faithing thread first.

This thread is focused on the correct response to the call of the Father, "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender." Not the believe and receive understanding.

Disclaimer: I will use the word gate, simply to highlght that part of the journey. I'm not suggesting there are actual gates.

The salvation process.

1) The world or the field.
A) Christ bought the entire field to get the treasure out of it. Jn. 3:16
B) Drawing by the Father starts here. Jn 6:44.
C) Were called out to be sainted here. Rom. 1:7.
D) people are called out from this field, and people are not called out from from this field. (A deep dive into the Greek is needed to show this.)
E) The beginning of the perfecting process starts here.
F) not sealed with the Spirit of Christ yet. Rom.8:9, not His yet.
G) no prayer or worship is acceptable here yet.
H) Repentance happens here. Turning from our way to the direction of the caller.
I) At this beginning stage, His Spirit, His word, and His promises are not ours yet.

2) Gate 1 or the altar.

A) first act of faithing, pisteuo, the surrendered life happens here.
B) A decision is made here, to make a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Genuine, not a perfect one.
C) Here, the act of pisteuo or faithing is tested and deemed Genuine by God.
D) No "saving faith " yet at the point.
E) prayer and worship not acceptable here yet. Rom. 8:9. Not His yet.
F) Alternative paths are formed here to go over or around the altar. (Believe and receive doctrine. ) to no avail.

3) Parable of the sower.
Mt. 13: 1-23. My. 4:1-20, Lk. 8:4-15.

A) here, Christ Himself is the seed.
B) the called out ones whos act of faithing has been accepted as Genuine are the soils.
C) this stage is a testing or proving ground.
D) the surrendered life is being tested here.
E) Decisions are made here that support the fact we really have turned our life and will over to God.
F) 3 of the 4 soils will fail here.
G) for 1 soil, this is the start of Christ being formed in their hearts by Faith. (pistis)
H) a grafting process begins here for that 1 soil.
I) no prayer and worship acceptable here yet.
J) God's paradoxical truths start to form here.
K) Faith begins to come by a hearing, a hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17.

4) Gate 2 or the accepted surrendered life.

A) Here, our surrendered life has been accepted.
B) the Spirit of Christ or the Grace deposit has been sealed into the faither, making them a temple of the Holy Spirit.
C) for the first time, He is in us and we are in Him.
D) a spiritual awakening happens here.
E) Dynamite power goes off here.
F) God's nature begins to flow.
G) the kind of giving that can't be imitated begins.
H) saving faith, a continually surrendered life has begun.
I) prayer and worship are acceptable now.
J) the mind of Christ and His presence start to take hold.
K) because of the mind of Christ, praying without ceasing starts here.
L) a called out one can only go through this gate one time.

5) The product.

A) here, God is producing "faithers" that are responding with saving faith.
B) here, a precondition has been met.
C) here a continual state of faithing will consume us.
D) here, we are either being saved or perishing. Choosing to faithe towards Him or away from Him.
E) this is not a destination.
F) we are continuously being perfected here, our faith, our surrendered life.
G) we should expect God's nature and His word to continually flow through us.
H) here, we are His and He is ours. We are in a state where it's harder to get out of His will, than it is to stay in it.
I)here, Rom. 7: 14-21 is in effect. We have been separated from our sinful nature's, by Grace through Faith.

This has been a testimony of sorts to the experience i had and have been having.
Where does I Corinthians 13, where Paul says it does not matter the power of you faith, if you don't have love - horizontal and vertical - your faith is in vain? Where does Galatians 5 fall in- these are the fruits (proof) of the Spirit? Remembering Jesus analogy that the unfruitful will be cut off and burned? Where does Jesus description of who is our neighbor and how we are to love them as the second most important commandment? How does Jesus long description of the basis for the final judgement of God in Matthew 25 fit into your formula? Where does Jesus statement that only those who endure to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13) fit into your formula?
 
Where does I Corinthians 13, where Paul says it does not matter the power of you faith, if you don't have love - horizontal and vertical - your faith is in vain? Where does Galatians 5 fall in- these are the fruits (proof) of the Spirit? Remembering Jesus analogy that the unfruitful will be cut off and burned? Where does Jesus description of who is our neighbor and how we are to love them as the second most important commandment? How does Jesus long description of the basis for the final judgement of God in Matthew 25 fit into your formula? Where does Jesus statement that only those who endure to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13) fit into your formula?

Well as soon as I find someone who will bear witness to the main elements of "my" formula, we can fill in the blanks.

As of now, nobody can get past the call of the Father, so i wouldn't hold your breath.
 
Where does I Corinthians 13, where Paul says it does not matter the power of you faith, if you don't have love - horizontal and vertical - your faith is in vain? Where does Galatians 5 fall in- these are the fruits (proof) of the Spirit? Remembering Jesus analogy that the unfruitful will be cut off and burned? Where does Jesus description of who is our neighbor and how we are to love them as the second most important commandment? How does Jesus long description of the basis for the final judgement of God in Matthew 25 fit into your formula? Where does Jesus statement that only those who endure to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13) fit into your formula?

This isn't my formula, it's my testimony.
 

No — I have not changed my mind.

The Holy Spirit is never given internally before repentance and faith. Only His external work happens before repentance.

Im thinking from a different perspective for a minute, and want to run it by you.

We do agree that the application of faith, pisteuo is a continually surrendered life. If that statement is correct, whether we agree on the details of the process really isn't a deal breaker. The important thing is we are living a life of surrender to Him.

I have a hard time finding others that agree on that important understanding, and that is a deal breaker.

What do you think?
 
Im thinking from a different perspective for a minute, and want to run it by you.

We do agree that the application of faith, pisteuo is a continually surrendered life. If that statement is correct, whether we agree on the details of the process really isn't a deal breaker. The important thing is we are living a life of surrender to Him.

I have a hard time finding others that agree on that important understanding, and that is a deal breaker.

What do you think?
Yes—if by pisteuō you mean ongoing entrustment, continual yielding, a life oriented toward Christ rather than self, then Scripture absolutely teaches that genuine faith is a surrendered life.And yes—if someone denies that, they are denying the biblical nature of faith itself.

But we need to be precise, because Scripture is precise.
 
Yes—if by pisteuō you mean ongoing entrustment, continual yielding, a life oriented toward Christ rather than self, then Scripture absolutely teaches that genuine faith is a surrendered life.And yes—if someone denies that, they are denying the biblical nature of faith itself.

But we need to be precise, because Scripture is precise.

Yes all those things and more.

I stand on the continually surrendered life, because that is what I've been doing for 38 years, and I've recieved most of the promises that validate it.

Im little confused why we can't continue looking at the salvation process.

You said in #211 that the Scriptural model, which i thought you stood on was the called out one receiving the Holy spirit before repentance.
Then in #229 you said the spirit is never given before repentance and faithing.

Then again in #217 you said God regenerates after the call before repentance.

Can we clear that up?
 
Yes all those things and more.

I stand on the continually surrendered life, because that is what I've been doing for 38 years, and I've recieved most of the promises that validate it.

Im little confused why we can't continue looking at the salvation process.

You said in #211 that the Scriptural model, which i thought you stood on was the called out one receiving the Holy spirit before repentance.
Then in #229 you said the spirit is never given before repentance and faithing.

Then again in #217 you said God regenerates after the call before repentance.

Can we clear that up?
good—this is exactly the right question, because if we don’t get the order of God’s saving work correct, everything downstream gets muddled. And yes, you’re right to notice that I used different language in different turns. That’s because Scripture uses different terms for different aspects of the Spirit’s work, and if we don’t distinguish them, we end up saying contradictory things.
So let me give you the clean, unified, fully‑biblical order of the Spirit’s work, and then show how each of those earlier statements fits into that order without contradiction. Hope this clears it up for you.
THE BIBLICAL ORDER OF THE SPIRIT’S WORK IN SALVATION
Scripture shows four distinct phases of the Spirit’s work:

1. The Spirit’s EXTERNAL work (pre‑conversion)

This includes:
conviction (John 16:8)
illumination (1 Cor 2:12–14)
drawing (John 6:44)
opening the heart (Acts 16:14)
This is not indwelling, not sealing, not union, not adoption.
This is the Spirit working upon a person, not within a person.
This is what I meant in earlier messages when I said: “The Spirit is given before repentance.”
Meaning: The Spirit acts before repentance. He is present and active, but not indwelling.
This is exactly what Jesus means by “drawing” and “convicting.”

2. Regeneration (new birth)

This is the moment God creates spiritual life in the sinner.
“Born of the Spirit.” — John 3:5–8
“He made us alive.” — Eph 2:5
“He saved us… by the washing of regeneration.” — Titus 3:5
Regeneration is the Spirit’s act, but it is not yet indwelling.
Regeneration is the creation of life, not the arrival of the Spirit as a Person.
This is what I meant when I said: “God regenerates after the call before repentance.”
Because Scripture shows:
The Father calls (Rom 8:30).
The Spirit awakens (Eph 2:5).
The sinner repents and believes (Acts 20:21).
Regeneration produces repentance and faith.

3. Repentance and Faith (pisteuō)

This is the human response to regeneration.
“Repent and believe the gospel.” — Mark 1:15
"God grants repentance.” — Acts 11:18
“To you it has been granted to believe.” — Phil 1:29
“Faith is the gift of God.” — Eph 2:8
Repentance and faith are the first breaths of the newly created spiritual life.
This is what I meant when I said: “The Spirit is never given before repentance and faith.”
Meaning: The indwelling Spirit is not given before repentance and faith.
The external work happens before. The regenerating work happens before. But the indwelling does not.

4. Indwelling, Sealing, Union, Adoption (post‑conversion)

This happens after repentance and faith.
Scripture is explicit: “Having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.” — Eph 1:13“Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into your hearts.” — Gal 4:6“If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.” — Rom 8:9“You are the temple of the Holy Spirit.” — 1 Cor 6:19
This is the moment the Spirit is given in the sense of:
indwelling
sealing
union with Christ
adoption
witness of the Spirit
sanctifying presence
This is not the same as the Spirit’s external work or His regenerating work.
This is the Spirit in the believer, not merely upon the believer.
NOW LET’S RECONCILE THE THREE STATEMENTS YOU POINTED OUT.
You quoted:

A. #211 — “The Spirit is given before repentance.”

Correct — in the sense of external work:
conviction
illumination
drawing
heart-opening
This is the Spirit acting, not indwelling.

B. #229 — “The Spirit is never given before repentance and faith.”

Correct — in the sense of indwelling:
sealing
union
adoption
witness
sanctifying presence
This is the Spirit indwelling, not merely acting.

C. #217 — “God regenerates after the call before repentance.”

Correct — in the sense of new birth:
regeneration produces repentance
repentance produces faith
faith receives Christ
Christ sends the Spirit to indwell
This is the Spirit creating life, not indwelling.
THE THREE STATEMENTS ARE NOT CONTRADICTORY. THEY REFER TO THREE DIFFERENT WORKS OF THE SPIRIT.

External work​

Regeneration​

Indwelling​

This is the biblical order.
The Spirit works externally to call, regenerates to awaken, and indwells after repentance and faith.
That’s the unified model. No contradictions. Just different aspects of the Spirit’s work.
 
good—this is exactly the right question, because if we don’t get the order of God’s saving work correct, everything downstream gets muddled. And yes, you’re right to notice that I used different language in different turns. That’s because Scripture uses different terms for different aspects of the Spirit’s work, and if we don’t distinguish them, we end up saying contradictory things.
So let me give you the clean, unified, fully‑biblical order of the Spirit’s work, and then show how each of those earlier statements fits into that order without contradiction. Hope this clears it up for you.
THE BIBLICAL ORDER OF THE SPIRIT’S WORK IN SALVATION
Scripture shows four distinct phases of the Spirit’s work:

1. The Spirit’s EXTERNAL work (pre‑conversion)

This includes:
conviction (John 16:8)
illumination (1 Cor 2:12–14)
drawing (John 6:44)
opening the heart (Acts 16:14)
This is not indwelling, not sealing, not union, not adoption.
This is the Spirit working upon a person, not within a person.
This is what I meant in earlier messages when I said: “The Spirit is given before repentance.”
Meaning: The Spirit acts before repentance. He is present and active, but not indwelling.
This is exactly what Jesus means by “drawing” and “convicting.”

2. Regeneration (new birth)

This is the moment God creates spiritual life in the sinner.
“Born of the Spirit.” — John 3:5–8
“He made us alive.” — Eph 2:5
“He saved us… by the washing of regeneration.” — Titus 3:5
Regeneration is the Spirit’s act, but it is not yet indwelling.
Regeneration is the creation of life, not the arrival of the Spirit as a Person.
This is what I meant when I said: “God regenerates after the call before repentance.”
Because Scripture shows:
The Father calls (Rom 8:30).
The Spirit awakens (Eph 2:5).
The sinner repents and believes (Acts 20:21).
Regeneration produces repentance and faith.

3. Repentance and Faith (pisteuō)

This is the human response to regeneration.
“Repent and believe the gospel.” — Mark 1:15
"God grants repentance.” — Acts 11:18
“To you it has been granted to believe.” — Phil 1:29
“Faith is the gift of God.” — Eph 2:8
Repentance and faith are the first breaths of the newly created spiritual life.
This is what I meant when I said: “The Spirit is never given before repentance and faith.”
Meaning: The indwelling Spirit is not given before repentance and faith.
The external work happens before. The regenerating work happens before. But the indwelling does not.

4. Indwelling, Sealing, Union, Adoption (post‑conversion)

This happens after repentance and faith.
Scripture is explicit: “Having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.” — Eph 1:13“Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into your hearts.” — Gal 4:6“If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.” — Rom 8:9“You are the temple of the Holy Spirit.” — 1 Cor 6:19
This is the moment the Spirit is given in the sense of:
indwelling
sealing
union with Christ
adoption
witness of the Spirit
sanctifying presence
This is not the same as the Spirit’s external work or His regenerating work.
This is the Spirit in the believer, not merely upon the believer.
NOW LET’S RECONCILE THE THREE STATEMENTS YOU POINTED OUT.
You quoted:

A. #211 — “The Spirit is given before repentance.”

Correct — in the sense of external work:
conviction
illumination
drawing
heart-opening
This is the Spirit acting, not indwelling.

B. #229 — “The Spirit is never given before repentance and faith.”

Correct — in the sense of indwelling:
sealing
union
adoption
witness
sanctifying presence
This is the Spirit indwelling, not merely acting.

C. #217 — “God regenerates after the call before repentance.”

Correct — in the sense of new birth:
regeneration produces repentance
repentance produces faith
faith receives Christ
Christ sends the Spirit to indwell
This is the Spirit creating life, not indwelling.
THE THREE STATEMENTS ARE NOT CONTRADICTORY. THEY REFER TO THREE DIFFERENT WORKS OF THE SPIRIT.

External work​

Regeneration​

Indwelling​

This is the biblical order.
The Spirit works externally to call, regenerates to awaken, and indwells after repentance and faith.
That’s the unified model. No contradictions. Just different aspects of the Spirit’s work.

We're just to far apart on the particulars.

Keep up with the daily surrender and living a life inspired by such surrender.
 
We're just to far apart on the particulars.

Keep up with the daily surrender and living a life inspired by such surrender.
Ive given you a biblically accurate answer to every question. There is nothing more. Peace my friend.
 
Ive given you a biblically accurate answer to every question. There is nothing more. Peace particular.
What you posted is right back to using the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing all over again. If thats not right nothing is right.

Cessation of againstness to you also.
 
What you posted is right back to using the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing all over again. If thats not right nothing is right.

Cessation of againstness to you also.
You have yet to prove that, so forgive me for not BELIVEING you. I , however have given you pages of painstaking typing to display the foundation on which i stand. You have given me nothing but opinion and unproven assertions.
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” — Matthew 7:15
Notice:
They look like sheep
They sound like Christians
They use Scripture
They claim to speak for God
They appear harmless
They blend in with the flock
 
You have yet to prove that, so forgive me for not BELIVEING you. I , however have given you pages of painstaking typing to display the foundation on which i stand. You have given me nothing but opinion and unproven assertions.
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” — Matthew 7:15
Notice:
They look like sheep
They sound like Christians
They use Scripture
They claim to speak for God
They appear harmless
They blend in with the flock

Thats a first day of school lesson omc. Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English.
 
Thats a first day of school lesson omc. Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English.
Its painfully obvious you have no lessons for me. Ive said all I can. Prove your assertions or leave me be. Thank you.
 
Its painfully obvious you have no lessons for me. Ive said all I can. Prove your assertions or leave me be. Thank you.

If you can't accept the true definition of faith, there nothing more to talk about.

So yes, I'll leave you be.