Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

OMC said:

LOL, Well, we going to see something I'm sure lol
You’re not wrong to notice the earthly details; you’re wrong to assume those details must describe a separate earthly phase before the heavenly Jerusalem descends. Prophetic literature regularly uses earth‑based metaphors to describe final eschatological realities, not intermediate ones. Yes, Zechariah 14 uses earth‑shaking, land‑reshaping imagery, and yes, prophets often describe God’s future reign in terms of mountains lifted, valleys split, rivers flowing, deserts blooming — but those images appear in texts that clearly point to the final restoration, not a temporary kingdom before it.
Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 describe the “mountain of the Lord” exalted above all hills, but Hebrews explicitly says we have come to Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem — the prophetic mountain imagery is theological, not topographical.
Zechariah 14:4–10 describes cosmic upheaval, but Revelation uses the same upheaval language for the final renewal, not a pre‑renewal millennium.
And Zechariah 2:13 (“He is roused from His holy habitation”) is a prophetic call to silence before divine action, not a travel itinerary from the heavenly city to an earthly one.

Click to expand...

• Peter — Expected an earthly, Davidic kingdom. Asked Jesus to "restore the kingdom to Israel" (Acts 1:6) and was told he'd sit on a throne judging the twelve tribes (Matt 19:28).
• James (son of Zebedee) & John (son of Zebedee) — Expected an earthly, political kingdom. Requested positions of honor at Jesus' right and left hand "in your glory" (Mark 10:35–37).
• John (the Apostle) — Taught a literal, earthly millennium. Papias, his direct disciple, explicitly taught a material, thousand-year reign (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 3.39). Irenaeus traced this doctrine to the apostles.
• Paul — Silent on a literal earthly millennium. His eschatology moves directly from Christ's return to the new creation; no intermediate earthly reign is described in any of his letters.
• Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James (son of Alpha), Simon the Zealot, Judas (son of James) — No individual eschatological statements survive. They participated in the collective question in Acts 1:6, implying they shared the general messianic expectation, but nothing more specific is known.

Pilgrimshope said:

evelation 14:3: Describes them as being "redeemed from the earth," implying their physical presence and origin on earth rather than a purely heavenly spiritual state“

whats your logic here to make this conclusion ?

what I see is them being marked on earth and then being shown in heaven Mount sion the city god has prepared for them. That’s constantly spoken of in the scriptures .

i think of the range of prophecy we read grows it explains a lot more of the story honestly . I don totally understand why some believe in an earthly restoration and “ millenial “ riegn on this earth but there are reasons I myself don’t .

“When I asked my Brave Search Assistant to do a comparison of the 144,000 and the people spoken of in Ezekiel 37, here's what it tells me:”

Yes but how about your prayer study and consideration of the scriptures ? The more of the prophets you read you’ll see other parts of the story is what I’m thinking .


“So, the 144,000 are the firstfruits returning to earth during the Great Tribulation period to serve another purpose for those who remain on the earth?”

to be clear this is based on what your ai assistant declared the Bible means ?

and no I wasn’t saying they returned for the great tribulation ect I’m not sure you guys are reading what I’m writing or maybe I’m not writing what I think I am lol not sure


The people in revelation seven aren’t Israelites the group that’s forst marked is the tribes of Israel that whole area is based on other prophecy in the ot of what would happen before Jerusalem was destroyed ……

Click to expand...

Revelation1v8 said:

I think the reason all of us are having differences of opinions is because the Bible describes the Millennial Kingdom in both an earthly and a heavenly way to such a point that it's giving me whiplash.
But Revelation, chapter 7, is a scene of who comes out of the tribulation. It says that the 144,000 were made up of 12,000 people each from the 12 tribes of Israel, so they are definitely representing the House of Israel here. Then the multitude dressed in white robes are shown immediately afterwards. Verse 14 tells you that they all came out of the Great Tribulation.

What I find interesting here is that verse 15 tells you that they end up serving God DAY AND NIGHT IN HIS TEMPLE. There is no day, night, or temple in the permanent heavenly realm, which is why I believe the Millennial Kingdom on earth. When it later says that the Lamb will lead them unto living fountains of water, I'm picturing the fountain in Zechariah 13:1.

I'm going to go do some more research, because I think there's some definite meaning behind these verses posted below that we all haven't considered yet (I have to some degree, but I've never been able to totally reconcile it yet).

• Matthew 6:9–10 — "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
• Luke 11:2 — "And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth."
• Matthew 16:19 — "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
• Matthew 18:18 — "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Is there a possibility that the Millennial Kingdom period is going on both in heaven and on earth at the same time?

I'm finding some interesting answers and I'll come back here later to post more information about that.

Click to expand...

Pilgrimshope said:

I appreciate the discussion and information

“Is there a possibility that the Millennial Kingdom period is going on both in heaven and on earth at the same time?”

not in my opinion.

You know how segments of prophecy seem to be talking about an earthly kingdom in jerusalem for the ethnic isralites in the ot sometimes ? In other places he’s been talking about a new creation where he’s restore isreal

there’s another pet of the story that’s missing when god spoke to David promising the messiah and an eternal kingdom he began promising to make an eternal land for Israel , where no one could ever harm them and corrupt and defile them they would no more fall or be destroyed in this new home he would make for them . And he tells David after David wants to build him a house ( temple ) to dwell in he tells David “ I tell you you will not build me a house , I will build you a house and my people a dwelling place “

In Ezekiel you see Jerusalem being destroyed and then next you see the glory of the lord with all the revelation imagery of the four living creatures you see gods glory being lifted up from the temple on earth and lifted up eventually near the end of the book exekiel begins to see the framing of the heavenly city and it’s temple where the messiah would enter

He had began talking about a new earth he would create after this one was destroyed and that earth which he was going to make would last before him as the seed of Jacob would …..

on the new earth israel will be restored and will be gods city on earth it’s not “ anti Israel or anything to understand thier inheritance is much better than originally thought this broken world v a brand new creation temporary v eternal remember gods main goal with israel ? To have a people and dwell among them as a father with his children ? He expresses this many times but it comes to pass on revelation 21


The thousand years is meant to show us a long time period between the two resirrections . Revelation is a lot about the two covenants it’s why you see those two groups one that’s all isralites and another where the people come from all nations and languages and out of the great tribulation . One group is there through thier covenant with god the other group comes through thiers

Click to expand...

tttallison said:

I do not understand how one could not take Ezekiel 37 as literal. Why would God put flesh on them? Isn’t it the flesh that we war against? How would that ever align with any metaphorical application?

Another point. If it was a metaphor, and you see Israel as spiritual dead, why did God say Israel was slain? How does slain apply to a spiritually dead Israel?

Has the two kingdoms become one? Have the two sticks been put together?

God was very specific about the graves. The Jews will believe when God opens their graves. God has a new covenant for Israel.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31 has not taken place yet unless you believe that the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. At least according to Paul.

Click to expand...

Revelation1v8 said:

So, when you say, "near the end of the book, Ezekiel begins to see the framing of the heavenly city and it's temple where the Messiah would enter" there is no temple in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21 and 22 tells us that God/Jesus are the temple and the light of the city, so any actual temple would have to be one on earth that is built before Jesus returns. That's what Ezekiel, chapters 40 through 48 shows. That's why I think the Millennial Kingdom is on the current earth in a changed state, not an entirely new earth.

Whether or not there are two covenants depends on how you look at it. I see it as one covenant that Jesus started on earth and He brings the Israelites into it at a later date when He returns to earth like Romans, chapter says. They are "grafted back in". It may be new to them, but it won't be new to God/Jesus or us.

Click to expand...

Pilgrimshope said:

“Whether or not there are two covenants depends on how you look at it.”

i just want to adress this then will reply to the rest

Can i offer you some scripture to consider mainly from the epistle to the Hebrews that may clear this issue up ? Especially read the part about a better second covenant
“Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This sort of makes clear there are two covenants alone also remember this letter is for the Hebrews as we continue

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What I was saying is the whole story clears up a lot and explains things for instance god makes the covenant with israel through Moses and animal blood

“And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God has foreknowledge so he told Moses before he died

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


This is a main theme of the ot israel doing what he said they would until

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

( read the curses in the law of Moses of they broke it )

what I’ve been saying is the whole story has a progression regarding the covenants and things happen israel had broken and defiles the covenant and the land with thier idolatry and worshiping of false gods and dieties throughout the ot but god loves them and is going to still fulfill his end of the bargain but he’s going to make a new covenant not according to the one they broke and became the curse ….


“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hebrews is trying to convince Hebrews to accept the new covenant because it’s the true things that the old were only a pattern of Hebrews tells so much to clear this up it’s cooky

Click to expand...

• He receives a land allotment that stretches from the western border to the eastern border of the land, flanking the holy district on both sides (45:7–8; 48:21–22). This is not a small estate — it's a territorial strip running the full width of the nation, larger than any single tribal portion.
• He is explicitly protected from the old abuse: "My princes shall no longer oppress My people" (45:8). He is a righteous ruler in contrast to the corrupt kings of Israel's past.
• He is regulated: he must not seize land from the tribes, and he must give his sons inheritance from his own portion so the people aren't displaced (45:8–9). This implies he has real executive power over land and property.

• The east gate is sealed to everyone — even the priests — except the prince, who "may sit in it to eat bread before the LORD" (44:3). This is a unique privilege: no priest enters that gate, no Levite, no foreigner.
• The people worship outside the outer court, while the prince sits on the porch within the gate complex (44:3–4). His physical position in the temple is visibly higher than the congregation's, marking his authority.

• He provides the animals for the daily, Passover, and Feast of Tabernacles sacrifices (45:16–17; 46:1–11).
• He offers a sin offering for himself first (45:22) — a ritual act of humility before God, not a priestly intercession for others.
• The actual priestly work — entering the sanctuary, performing atonement, mediating — is done by the Zadokite priests (44:15). The prince funds and initiates worship; the priests execute it.

• Multiple commentators (Feinberg, Block, the Never Thirsty series) identify him as an administrator or vice-regent under Christ's direct reign. The Messiah is the King (Ezek 37:24–25, "David my servant shall be their prince forever" = Jesus); the nāśîʾ is the one who manages the day-to-day governance of Israel and the temple system.
• His territory is described as "the rest shall belong to the prince" (48:21) — everything outside the holy district, the city, and the tribal portions is under his jurisdiction.

Revelation1v8 said:

Alright, I think I'm finally starting to get it!

The Millennial Kingdom period takes place with Jesus ruling over it from Heaven while Israel is technically being led by a Davidic prince on the new earth for 1,000 years growing in number and repopulating before Heaven comes down to them.

Here is the best description I could find to explain what's really happening based on ALL of scripture being taken together into context....

During the millennium, Christ reigns as King over all the earth (Ezek 37:24; Zech 14:9), while the prince administers Israel and the millennial temple on the ground — a human Davidic figure with real civil and liturgical authority, but without the priestly office that belongs uniquely to the heavenly Priest-King. The two offices are separated on earth precisely because they are united in heaven. This would definitely fit the "on earth as it is in heaven" that I knew had some kind of meaning that I wasn't catching at the time.

The entire Old Testament temple system was a copy of a superior pattern (Hebrews 8:5). In the millennial temple of Ezekiel 40–48, that principle plays out in a specific way: the earthly temple needs an earthly administrator because the heavenly Priest-King (Zechariah 6:13) is not physically present in it. The prince is the shadow-caster who stands in the earthly realm so that worship, sacrifice, and governance can function on the ground while the true Priest-King reigns from above.

Zechariah 6:13 is the interpretive key: it tells us that the ultimate fusion of priest and king belongs to the Branch, and therefore cannot be duplicated by any human figure in the earthly temple. Everything in Ezekiel 40–48 is structured around that absence.

How the prince actually rules on earth
The text gives him a concrete, multi-layered role:

1. Supreme civil authority over Israel

• He receives a land allotment that stretches from the western border to the eastern border of the land, flanking the holy district on both sides (45:7–8; 48:21–22). This is not a small estate — it's a territorial strip running the full width of the nation, larger than any single tribal portion.
• He is explicitly protected from the old abuse: "My princes shall no longer oppress My people" (45:8). He is a righteous ruler in contrast to the corrupt kings of Israel's past.
• He is regulated: he must not seize land from the tribes, and he must give his sons inheritance from his own portion so the people aren't displaced (45:8–9). This implies he has real executive power over land and property.

2. Elevated temple access

• The east gate is sealed to everyone — even the priests — except the prince, who "may sit in it to eat bread before the LORD" (44:3). This is a unique privilege: no priest enters that gate, no Levite, no foreigner.
• The people worship outside the outer court, while the prince sits on the porch within the gate complex (44:3–4). His physical position in the temple is visibly higher than the congregation's, marking his authority.

3. Worship leadership (but not priesthood)

• He provides the animals for the daily, Passover, and Feast of Tabernacles sacrifices (45:16–17; 46:1–11).
• He offers a sin offering for himself first (45:22) — a ritual act of humility before God, not a priestly intercession for others.
• The actual priestly work — entering the sanctuary, performing atonement, mediating — is done by the Zadokite priests (44:15). The prince funds and initiates worship; the priests execute it.

4. Administrative role under the Messiah

• Multiple commentators (Feinberg, Block, the Never Thirsty series) identify him as an administrator or vice-regent under Christ's direct reign. The Messiah is the King (Ezek 37:24–25, "David my servant shall be their prince forever" = Jesus); the nāśîʾ is the one who manages the day-to-day governance of Israel and the temple system.
• His territory is described as "the rest shall belong to the prince" (48:21) — everything outside the holy district, the city, and the tribal portions is under his jurisdiction.

Click to expand...

tttallison said:

You have put much on the plate and I am having trouble deciphering it all. We all observe verses from different advantage points. A little clarity would help me understand what you are saying. Thank you.

Click to expand...

tttallison said:

I do not understand how one could not take Ezekiel 37 as literal. Why would God put flesh on them? Isn’t it the flesh that we war against? How would that ever align with any metaphorical application?

Another point. If it was a metaphor, and you see Israel as spiritual dead, why did God say Israel was slain? How does slain apply to a spiritually dead Israel?

Has the two kingdoms become one? Have the two sticks been put together?

God was very specific about the graves. The Jews will believe when God opens their graves. God has a new covenant for Israel.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31 has not taken place yet unless you believe that the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. At least according to Paul.

Click to expand...

Pilgrimshope said:

That’s not at all my argument or belief. I sort of suspect you are just offering ai responses to my post at this point.

But I respect your post there and appreciate you taking the time to share it I think if we just read things in scriptire like this

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


….But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Really who do you guys think God was talking to when he was saying things like this ?

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Click to expand...

Revelation1v8 said:

You're going to have to be more direct because I've read and know all of these verses, but what I can't see is how you understand them. You need to use your own words to just tell me what you think I'm getting wrong. Please describe in your own words how you see the transition between the current heavens & earth and the new heavens & earth

Click to expand...

OMC said:

I know you heard me say this already but once again I must share what scripture says on the matter. The transition is not two different universes but one creation passing through judgment, purification, and renewal, because Scripture never describes God annihilating the cosmos and replacing it with a different one; instead it uses the same pattern everywhere: the old order is burned, shaken, dissolved, and stripped, and then the same creation is liberated, resurrected, and remade, just as our bodies are not replaced but raised, transformed, and glorified; 2 Peter’s “elements melting” is judgment language (like Isaiah’s collapsing heavens), not physics, and Revelation’s “first heaven and earth passed away” is the end of the old order, not the destruction of matter, proven by the fact that the kings of the earth, nations, and creation itself continue into the new earth; the “new heavens and new earth” is the final state of this creation, freed from curse, death, and corruption, not a second universe, and the transition happens at Christ’s return when the curse is removed, the dead are raised, the world is purified by divine fire, and the renewed creation emerges as the eternal dwelling place of God with His people; in short, the movement is continuity through transformation, not replacement through annihilation, and the new world is this world—purged, perfected, and permanently filled with righteousness.

Click to expand...

Revelation1v8 said:

Good Morning, OMC! Good to hear from you!

I know you feel this way, but I still don't see it that way. When the Bible goes as far as to say the elements themselves will burn and dissolve in 2 Peter 3:10, I take that literally. You do a good job of describing how you think everything is transformed, including our bodies, but when I think of our glorified bodies being described in 1 Corinthians 15, I look at that as a totally new body. I say that because our new bodies won't even function like the ones we have now. There will be no blood in our bodies. It will not experience pain, fatigue, aging or decay. We are made more like the angels it tells us. Jesus walked through walls and doors after His resurrection.

He brings a new kind of life entirely, in my view. Maybe I say this because of my over excitement about it. Plus, to me, dimensions are dimensions. There is no reason to use dimensions to measure the New Jerusalem unless they are true dimensions and the New Jerusalem does not fit the dimensions of the current earth. Until somebody shows me some magic numerical code for how dimensions really mean something else specific, I'm always going to believe that they were meant to be used as dimensions. God doesn't care if I'm right or wrong on some of these particular matters. Thank you, Jesus!

Click to expand...

OMC said:

Good morning my friend
As you know, I have my own hard time wrapping my head around some of this but I know the scripture answers for itself and I am confident The Lord will make it known if It needs to be. But you are right. Most important is the Gospel and everything else will fall into place. Much love my friend.

Click to expand...

tttallison said:

You throw away a good portion of the bible in order for it to fit comfortably within your viewpoints. Perhaps we all do that to some extent. I understand one not being able to comprehend how the two kingdoms would be come one again, especially if you throw away Ezekiel's vision.

To say the visions of all the prophets are merely metaphors is a hard statement, especially in light of all fulfilled prophesy.

Click to expand...

OMC said:

you say I “throw away” prophetic visions because I read Ezekiel 37 symbolically, but that accusation only works if Ezekiel himself doesn’t tell you it’s a vision — and he does;
The chapter opens with a visionary setting, God interprets the bones as “the whole house of Israel,” and every element (bones, flesh, breath, graves) is explained as imagery for covenant death and covenant restoration, not biological resurrection, so I’m not throwing anything away — I’m letting the text interpret its own symbols; the problem is that you treat every prophetic vision as literal unless forced otherwise, but Scripture itself never treats prophetic visions that way — Isaiah’s trees clap their hands, Daniel’s beasts rise from the sea, Zechariah’s flying scroll curses the land, and none of those are literal events, yet all are fulfilled prophecy, meaning fulfilled prophecy does not require literalism, it requires correct referent; your insistence that “two kingdoms must literally reunite” ignores the apostolic interpretation that the reunification happens in Christ, where Jew and Gentile become one new man (Ephesians 2), which is exactly the fulfillment Ezekiel anticipated — not a geopolitical merger but a covenantal one; the reason you can’t see it is because you assume the prophets must describe the end in the same categories they lived in, but the NT repeatedly shows that prophetic imagery expands, transforms, and reaches fulfillment in Christ in ways the OT symbols only foreshadowed; I’m not discarding Ezekiel — I’m refusing to flatten prophetic genre into wooden literalism, because once the NT tells you what the vision means, refusing that interpretation is not fidelity to Scripture but resistance to apostolic hermeneutics.

Click to expand...

Revelation1v8 said:

Did I miss something? I thought Ezekiel 37 was all about reuniting all of the 12 tribes of Israel to bring the "whole house of Israel" back together again. It specifically talks about reuniting the northern and southern kingdoms of Israel.

Click to expand...