There are no sinful believers, but only unbelieving transgressors.

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A

ATG

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Feb 14, 2022
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The reason there is confusion about being a righteous or sinful believer, is because that's only a debate among men, but not with God.

With Scripture of God there is only His righteous believers in Jesus Christ, and the unrighteous unbelievers in Jesus Christ.

With the death, burial, and resurrection fo Jesus Christ, God no longer acknowledges transgressors as His people.

In the OT, the natural covenant people of Israel also included both the righteous and the transgressors, seeing that partaking of the covenant was by natural birth and circumcsion.

But in the NT, only with the wholly newbirt of the Spirit, are the holy saints of God amde partakers of His divine nature, and Jesus' holy nation and people.

2Pe 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The OT national Israel had both righteous saints keeping His commandment, and unrighteous transgressors. In the NT nation of Jesus Christ, He only now has His holy believers that keep His commandments,

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
2Ti 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

A simple reading of the Old Covenant shows the LORD speaking of His people as sometimes being disobedient and sinners like the unbelieving heathen. But in the New Testament, Scripture never speaks of His justified people being transgressors and sinners like the unbelievers of the world.

1Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

We righteous believers can sin and transgress by forsaking the faith of Jesus and falling from His grace, but not as a faithful member of His body in the light and holiness of God. If we do transgress, then we are become as the unbelievers of the world, for whom Christ also died and advocates to repent and be forgiven.

Only the sanctified righteous bleievers in Jesus Christ can walk with Him as He walked in righteousness and true holiness. And no man can walk with Jesus by grace, while also sinning and transgressing against Him.

And so, there are only righteous believers in Jesus Christ doing His righteousness, and only sinful believers in Jesus Christ doing unrighteousness against Him.

No believer in Jesus Christ is a sinner and transgressor, and no sinner and transgressor is a believer in Jesus Christ.

Mar 3:33
And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall be doing the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Mat 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
1Co 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Here we see that all the children of Israel passed through the sea and drank of Christ by faith, but not all lived by their faith and perished in the wilderness.

Heb 3:17
But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Why did they fall? By unbelief. And yet they were believers, when departing from Egypt by the hand of God. How then were they judged unbelievers? By disobedience and transgression against their spiritual Rock Christ.

Them that had obeyed by faith through the sea and the cloud, fell by disobedience in unbelief.

Faith is made unbelief by disobedience, and the believers are made unbelievers, the same as they that lusted and fell by transgression in the wilderness and perished.
 
Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
And so, we see that if we sin with the world, there remains no more sacrifice for us, the same as the unbelievers.

Only believers have the sacrifice and Passover Lamb of God, not the unbelievers.

Therefore, if we believers also sin against the Lamb of God, like the unbelievers, then we no more remain believers with the Lamb of God, but only unbelievers with the world.

Faith in Jesus Christ is made unbelief by transgression. Even as the believers in the wilderness, who lusted and fell in unbelief by disobedience, so also we shall fall by disobedience of unbelief.

Heb{5:8}
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Only the obedient believers have eternal salvation of the Son Jesus Christ the righteous.

The disobedient have no salvation by grace through faith, for their disobedience is unbelief in His eternal salvation from sin and transgression against God.
 
Are there no sinful Christians also, but only righteous Christians?

No, because even as the natural children of Israel were sometimes obedient and disobedient, so also Christians can be both obedient and disobedience.

The former were called the children of Israel by natural birth alone, and the latter are called Christians by naming Christ alone.

But only the obedient are called and chosen to be made partakers of the divine nature, and members of Jesus' holy body, temple, and nation on earth.

And so, in the Christian religion of sinners and saints, they are all members of congregations in the name of Christ. But in the pure religion of Jesus Christ, there are only the righteous members of Jesus Christ:

Jas 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
As in the Jews religion, there were both keepers of the commandments, and transgressors, so also today in the Christians religion. But not in the eternal kingdom of God and His Christ:

2 pet 1:4
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 
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Dino246 said:
Ah… just what every Christian needs:

More judgement, criticism, and condemnation.
Click to expand...
Isa 30:9
That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

Isaiah{28:14}
Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Dino246 said:
Romans 8:1.
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Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who are not walking after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The false gospel is easy to expose. It always preaches sinful walking after the flesh without condemnation.

Some sinful Christians just don't reject it, and repent not.
 
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timf said:
The righteousness a Christian has is the righteousness of Christ.
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The righteousness a righteous Christian has is doing the righteousness of Christ.

1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
The righteoiusness a sinful Christian has is his own righteousness.


timf said:
Those Christians still in the flesh are still sinning.
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Those Christians still sining in the flesh, are still sinning against Christ.

Those sinful Christians that declare all Christians are still sinning in the flesh, know not the righteous Christians and Jesus Christ the righteous.

Acts{3:19}
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

 
Psa 78:32
For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.

And so, we see how not all them that passed through the sea and the cloud by faith, did not continue in the faith of God, but continuing to disobey Him instead.

Faith toward God is made unbelief in His Christ by disobeying Him.

1 John{2:29} I
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that is doing righteousness is born of him.

There are only obedient faithful sons of God, not any disobedient transgressors born of God.

Rev 13:10
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
 
ATG said:
Are there no sinful Christians also, but only righteous Christians?

No, because even as the natural children of Israel were sometimes obedient and disobedient, so also Christians can be both obedient and disobedience.

The former were called the children of Israel by natural birth alone, and the latter are called Christians by naming Christ alone.

But only the obedient are called and chosen to be made partakers of the divine nature, and members of Jesus' holy body, temple, and nation on earth.

And so, in the Christian religion of sinners and saints, they are all members of congregations in the name of Christ. But in the pure religion of Jesus Christ, there are only the righteous members of Jesus Christ:

Jas 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
As in the Jews religion, there were both keepers of the commandments, and transgressors, so also today in the Christians religion. But not in the eternal kingdom of God and His Christ:

2 pet 1:4
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

“Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.


And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:

for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased;

and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:10-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any:

that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25‬ ‭

“but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭15:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:15-16‬ ‭

““All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son reveals him.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 
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ATG said:
The false gospel is easy to expose. It always preaches sinful walking after the flesh without condemnation.

Some sinful Christians just don't reject it, and repent not.
Click to expand...
When you quote me preaching “sinful walking after the flesh” then you might have a point.

You haven’t, and you won’t, so your response is pointless.
 
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The righteousness a Christian has is the righteousness of Christ.
timf said:
Those Christians still in the flesh are still sinning.
Click to expand...

? You mean those still acting in the flesh ?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul was stressing this point repeatedly .
“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The term Paul’s using “ The flesh “ is explained in his doctrine flesh v spirit but he’s teaching not to keep doing the deeds of the flesh
“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

repentance is Paul’s message and obedience ( to Jesus and the gospel ) through the spirit the actions and deeds he explains are works of the flesh ( sinful ideas and actions like the list he gave there )

Galatians

the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Ephesians
….ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
Colossians
“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:5-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Spirit v flesh is a doctine Paul noticed in the ot scriptures and uses it effectively to teach christians about thier behavior being renewed people …..

It begins early on and repeatedly comes to light in the ot

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Theres been a conflict ever since within man it’s why they are sinners

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other:

so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s meaning to all those phrases in the rest of Paul’s writings and it’s usually rooted in the ot
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
a sinner is one who sins (by definition)
Click to expand...
Correct.

Everlasting-Grace said:
sine all people alive on this earth sin.. they are by definition a sinner.
Click to expand...
Since some sinners judge that all people must be sinners like themselves, then they condemn all people as sinners.

Some sinners justify themselves as sinful, by declaring all people are sinners.

Jas 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

All people are not sinners like the unrighteous, but some people are justified righteous believers in Jesus Christ.

As the scriptures prove, there is no sinful believer in Jesus Christ, but only sinful unbelievers toward God and His righteousness.

I keep noticing that it's only self-confessed unrighteous Christian sinners, that hog names like 'grace' for themselves...
 
Pilgrimshope said:
“Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.


And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:

for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased;

and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:10-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any:

that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25‬ ‭

“but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭15:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:15-16‬ ‭

““All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son reveals him.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭NIV‬‬
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If you can show any error in the argument given for the Scriptures quoted, I'd like to see it.

Otherwise, your own quoted Scriptures are great of course, but do not apply to the argument at hand. Thanks anyway.
 
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ATG said:
The reason there is confusion about being a righteous or sinful believer, is because that's only a debate among men, but not with God.

With Scripture of God there is only His righteous believers in Jesus Christ, and the unrighteous unbelievers in Jesus Christ.

With the death, burial, and resurrection fo Jesus Christ, God no longer acknowledges transgressors as His people.

In the OT, the natural covenant people of Israel also included both the righteous and the transgressors, seeing that partaking of the covenant was by natural birth and circumcsion.

But in the NT, only with the wholly newbirt of the Spirit, are the holy saints of God amde partakers of His divine nature, and Jesus' holy nation and people.

2Pe 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The OT national Israel had both righteous saints keeping His commandment, and unrighteous transgressors. In the NT nation of Jesus Christ, He only now has His holy believers that keep His commandments,

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
2Ti 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

A simple reading of the Old Covenant shows the LORD speaking of His people as sometimes being disobedient and sinners like the unbelieving heathen. But in the New Testament, Scripture never speaks of His justified people being transgressors and sinners like the unbelievers of the world.

1Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

We righteous believers can sin and transgress by forsaking the faith of Jesus and falling from His grace, but not as a faithful member of His body in the light and holiness of God. If we do transgress, then we are become as the unbelievers of the world, for whom Christ also died and advocates to repent and be forgiven.

Only the sanctified righteous bleievers in Jesus Christ can walk with Him as He walked in righteousness and true holiness. And no man can walk with Jesus by grace, while also sinning and transgressing against Him.

And so, there are only righteous believers in Jesus Christ doing His righteousness, and only sinful believers in Jesus Christ doing unrighteousness against Him.

No believer in Jesus Christ is a sinner and transgressor, and no sinner and transgressor is a believer in Jesus Christ.

Mar 3:33
And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall be doing the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Mat 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Click to expand...
That was a great post...thank you.
How long have you been a non-sinner ?
 
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