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E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
If so. Then God would just say 144000 people. he did not. He said 144000 redeemed from the children of Isreal.
WHy do people want to destroy the words of God and make him say something he has not said?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
He used symbolism (ie beasts and other things) to show spiritual truths.
yet the literal events actually came true.
There is no need to symbolise this, why would there be? it does not make sense.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
No it is not.
It says specific things, there is no need to symbolise it.
if you symbolise it, you take away from the meaning of prophesy, a prophesy which could mean ANYTHING is a prophesy which fails to do its purpose, which is to prove God is the ONE TRUE GOD.
Because most of the language of Rev. is symbolism. I really do not expect you to believe this because I know how you approach the book.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
all prophesy has symbolic things to represent literal events.
Daniel (which is the OT type of revelation) had symbols representing literal things. IE Beasts, Yet these beasts represented literal things which has, and will come true.
All prophesies up till christ (including times) literally came true.
You want us to believe that all which come after should be symbolic. this would be a false use of prophesy.
I already posted the verse to prove it. A prophesy which does not come true is a sign of a false prophet. I guess yuo want john to be a false prophet.
AGain, prophesy which can not be proven to come true is useless. A pagan God can make a symbolic prophesy and make it come true, I guess you think God is pagan (of course your anti-jewish symbolic interpretation of prophesy comes from a pagan cult. so it goes to figure)
Jesus did tell John that THESE THINGS MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS....I agree...some or Revelation has symbolism, and yet most of it is literal......when it ALL gets symbolized it makes it impossible to know and or understand...The books name means to REVEAL...not hide within the ranks of symbolism....! When I say some of it is symbolic I mean like chapter 12:1-6.....but like I said...most of it is literal....!
J
Jillyanne
Guest
Ok, so just talking off the top of my head/no studying, but I guess that it's hard for me to understand why God would have turned to the Gentiles with grace, dealing with our spiritual condition, freeing us from the yoke of bondage while holding onto only some of the old covenants during the time of the gentile grace. It makes more sense that once His bride is removed, He will then turn back to the physical (flesh) nation of Israel, but during this time (church age), Israel is SPIRITUAL.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I am not suggesting the event is symbolic, only the number used in connection with the event.
J
Jillyanne
Guest
That is my point....why then do we adhere to supporting PHYSICAL Israel? I am NOT a Jew hater by any means, I understand the importance of Gods people, but I fear we can also die standing on the wrong hills. Every church I see, apostate or not is waving the Israel flag and It's my instinct that has difficulty aligning with mainstream
Yes you know I agree.....it all has meaning for sure and or fulfillment in a literal context!
Rev 7.4 - 9
And I heard the number of those having been sealed: one hundred forty four thousands, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: Out of the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand having been sealed. After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.
What John is witnessing is the First Resurrection...and it refers to people of EVERY language & EVERY nation....
You look...but you cannot see.
The New Jerusalem is described as having three gates on each of four directional sides (North, South, East & West).
Clearly, this means entry into Heaven is available to ANYONE believing in The Trinity.
Simple Biblical truth...
B
biscuit
Guest
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[TD="width: 593, align: left"][h=1]Who are the 144,000?[/h]
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What does the Bible say about thankfulness / gratitude?
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"Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus."
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
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[TD="width: 593, align: left"][h=1]Who are the 144,000?[/h]
Question: "Who are the 144,000?"
Answer: The book of Revelation has always presented the interpreter with challenges. The book is steeped in vivid imagery and symbolism which people have interpreted differently depending on their preconceptions of the book as a whole. There are four main interpretive approaches to the book of Revelation: 1) preterist (which sees all or most of the events in Revelation as having already occurred by the end of the 1st century); 2) historicist (which sees Revelation as a survey of church history from apostolic times to the present); 3) idealist (which sees Revelation as a depiction of the struggle between good and evil); 4) futurist (which sees Revelation as prophecy of events to come). Of the four, only the futurist approach interprets Revelation in the same grammatical-historical method as the rest of Scripture. It is also a better fit with Revelation’s own claim to be prophecy (Revelation 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18, 19).
So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.
These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17, in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24–27). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.
Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of theJehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the heavenly hope. Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the earthly hope—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. Clearly, we can see that Jehovah’s Witness teaching sets up a caste society in the afterlife with a ruling class (the 144,000) and those who are ruled. The Bible teaches no such “dual class” doctrine. It is true that according toRevelation 20:4 there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will take place at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) will become ours, and we will all be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).
Recommended Resources: Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware andLogos Bible Software.
Answer: The book of Revelation has always presented the interpreter with challenges. The book is steeped in vivid imagery and symbolism which people have interpreted differently depending on their preconceptions of the book as a whole. There are four main interpretive approaches to the book of Revelation: 1) preterist (which sees all or most of the events in Revelation as having already occurred by the end of the 1st century); 2) historicist (which sees Revelation as a survey of church history from apostolic times to the present); 3) idealist (which sees Revelation as a depiction of the struggle between good and evil); 4) futurist (which sees Revelation as prophecy of events to come). Of the four, only the futurist approach interprets Revelation in the same grammatical-historical method as the rest of Scripture. It is also a better fit with Revelation’s own claim to be prophecy (Revelation 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18, 19).
So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.
These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17, in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24–27). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.
Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of theJehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the heavenly hope. Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the earthly hope—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. Clearly, we can see that Jehovah’s Witness teaching sets up a caste society in the afterlife with a ruling class (the 144,000) and those who are ruled. The Bible teaches no such “dual class” doctrine. It is true that according toRevelation 20:4 there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will take place at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) will become ours, and we will all be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).
Recommended Resources: Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware andLogos Bible Software.
Who are the 144,000?
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[TD="class: text6, width: 160, align: left"] Audio/MP3/Podcast Random Page Citation Contact Us Serve with Us Online Survey Promote Us Support Us
What does the Bible say about thankfulness / gratitude?
"Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus."
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
Preferred Bible Version:
ESV GW HCSB KJV NASB NET NIV NIRV NKJV NLT
Got Books?
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KEY words...AFTER THESE THINGS<-----does this not make a break in context and or lines of thought?
J
JesusIsAll
Guest
I've had a theory about the 144,000 for a long time, based on Revelation 7:4. It may seem impossible, but the 144,000 could be "an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."