144,000

[Jillyanne]

I agree, but could it be that The manifestation of Gods covenant with physical Israel will not come to fruition until after the church age (spiritual) has expired? The 144,000 will be their witness during tribulation...possible?

 

[Bookends]

1. God said it was an eternal covenant
2. God said even after they broke their covenant with him, he would never destroy them.

God's wrath is never directed at HIS people. What makes people HIS people? FAITH! Most of Israel are not Isreal...remember that scripture by Paul EG?

 

[Bookends]

I agree, but could it be that The manifestation of Gods covenant with physical Israel will not come to fruition until after the church age (spiritual) has expired? The 144,000 will be their witness during tribulation...possible?

John speaks in Revelation 1 to the saints as if he was in the tribulation!

9 I, John, both[e] your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree, but could it be that The manifestation of Gods covenant with physical Israel will not come to fruition until after the church age (spiritual) has expired? The 144,000 will be their witness during tribulation...possible?

I believe they will be witnesses, does not matter when it happens, just that it happens.

We know it will occure after there has been a "falling away" though, After the man of sin is revealed,

 

[Jillyanne]

john is merely identifying with us in our tribulations not THE tribulation, at that point He is getting ready to address the churches from my understanding

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Leviticus 26 (read carefully)
44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the Lord their God.

Natural Jews who were scattered are not forgotten, because the GOSPEL is for them too!!!

why did God only make this promise to this nation only? Why did God forget the edomites, the hittites, and all the other nations who were defeated, and lost in the history of their captors to fade away and be nothing.

Your right, the gospel is for them. But that is not the topic of lev 26. it is what they were required to live in peace in the land God gave their fathers.

and you again missed part of that passage.

42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.

Why is God remembering the land if salvation is what the context is as your claiming?

This is national. Not induvidual. People during the babylonian captivity recieved God. yet they were punished also (see daniel and his friends, and many others)

It has nothing to do with the salvation of an induvidual. It has to do with Gods promise to a nation, or more literally. the fathers of that nation

 

[mpaper345]

I believe that the 144,000 are actually Jewish people because at that time the Jews will recognize Jesus as their Savior.

God said He is going to make a full end of all Gentile nations but He will not make a full end of Israel although they will not be wholly unpunished.

God said He is going to gather all nations together to battle against Israel,all the Gentiles that do not love God,and then when they attack Israel God will put them down,and Israel will be the only operating nation in the millennial reign of Christ.

So it would seem at that time that they would be actual physical Jews.

The tribe of Dan was not included but Mannaseh was included,which could be because there is not enough of the tribe of Dan,or because Dan introduced Israel to idolatry.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The eternal covenant is for the those place their faith in God and Jesus who obeyed God, and who obey HIM! God said to Abraham, "I will bless ALL the FAMILIES of the EARTH through your SEED, the SEED is CHRIST>>> ALL those who put their faith in CHRIST are where the eternal promises lay....

Yes, this is one part of the eternal covenant, but there is another part.

Gen 15: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Nothinng salvic about this promise.

How long did he make this promise?

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Again, nothing salvic about this promise. so why do people want to make it a salvic promise, or an allegorical promise, when their is nothing to it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God's wrath is never directed at HIS people. What makes people HIS people? FAITH! Most of Israel are not Isreal...remember that scripture by Paul EG?

how can you say this when you posted Lev 26, Where God promises to send his wrath on his own people? if they do not listen to him, and obey his voice?

 

[Jillyanne]

You both are right theoretically.....the covenant was never broken, but if will not be fulfilled until after the age of grace (spiritual)...once the Holy Spirit (aka bride) is removed, GRACE ENDS, he will then go back to deal wit PHYSICAL Israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

john is merely identifying with us in our tribulations not THE tribulation, at that point He is getting ready to address the churches from my understanding

Amen, Jesus states that tribulation will not occur until after the abomination which causes desolation occurs.

Which till this day has still not happened as Daniel prophesied it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You both are right theoretically.....the covenant was never broken, but if will not be fulfilled until after the age of grace (spiritual)...once the Holy Spirit (aka bride) is removed, GRACE ENDS, he will then go back to deal wit PHYSICAL Israel.

I agree, that when the time of the gentiles is completed. The church will be restored to Israel (given the responsibility as protectors and teachers of the word of God)

I disagree grace will end, Salvation by grace has been true since adam first died, it has always been of grace.

 

[dcontroversal]

The Greek word is 'meta'...which literally means 'with'....its not starting a NEW topic but is a continuation of the previous...

Nice try, but the word can also be viewed in the following manners and CONTEXT dictates it's usage...

1. Amid
2. Occupying an intermediate position between
3. Hence
4, Hence after
5. following
6. Hereafter
7. In sequence
8. Proximity to
9. In association with

ect. So.....like I said, NICE TRY, but NO DICE!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nice try, but the word can also be viewed in the following manners and CONTEXT dictates it's usage...

1. Amid
2. Occupying an intermediate position between
3. Hence
4, Hence after
5. following
6. Hereafter
7. In sequence
8. Proximity to
9. In association with

ect. So.....like I said, NICE TRY, but NO DICE!

just to help:

67.48 μετάg: a marker of a point of time closely associated with a prior point of time—‘after.’ καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἀναστῆναι ‘and to arise after three days’ (that is, ‘on the third day,’ since both the first and the last days of such a set were counted) Mk 8:31; μετὰ ταῦτα ἦλθεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν Ἰουδαίαν γῆν ‘after this, Jesus and his disciples went to the province of Judea’ Jn 3:22. In a number of languages there is no convenient preposition-like word such as ‘after,’ but one can render the expression in Jn 3:22 as ‘these things happened, and then Jesus and his disciples went to the province of Judea.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 634). New York: United Bible Societies.

 

[oldhermit]

again that makes no sense.

It does not say all Israel is saved, it says 144000 are. If God wanted us to know they all were saved, he would have told us, Like paul did in romans 11.

God is not the author of confusion.

"And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.” Rom. 11:26.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.” Rom. 11:26.

Yep.. And all Israel will be saved,

it will start with 144000

 

[oldhermit]

Yep.. And all Israel will be saved,

it will start with 144000

LOL. Yes, this is quite true, but not in the way you think.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yep.. And all Israel will be saved,

it will start with 144000

And culminates when the REMNANT that is left looks upon him whom they have pierced Zechariah 12:10-11

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL. Yes, this is quite true, but not in the way you think.

does not matter what I think. or how it happens. Just that it will.

 

[notuptome]

Well as a pretrib rapture believer my understanding is that the 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes who God will raise up to preach the gospel during the tribulation. After the church is raptured this group of Jews is going to look hard at the scriptures and God will open their eyes to the truth of Christ as Messiah.

The 144,000 will go about preaching and seeing souls saved during the tribulation time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger