50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

TheDivineWatermark · Jun 10, 2021

I note that Robertson makes no mention whatsoever of the "chronology / sequence" issues... per Luke 21:12 [-24a] having "the desolation thereof [of Jerusalem]" taking place in the events surrounding 70ad (per Jesus' words elsewhere even--as I've pointed out in past posts--Matt22:7; Lk19:41-44; here in Lk21:23,20; Lk21:6/Mk13:2/Mt24:2; etc), which 70ad events according to v.12 come sequentially "BEFORE ALL these [before all these BoBPs spelled out in vv.8-11 (also in Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8)];

...whereas in Matthew 24, He starts out talking about the "BoBPs" and sequentially moves on to talk about the "A[singular]oD[singular]" that Daniel 12:11 speaks of, which is distinct from the "desolation thereof [of Jerusalem--in 70ad]" that occurs "BEFORE ALL THESE [BoBPs]," see...

Many people disregard these "sequence / chronology" issues in the Olivet Discourse. All they're doing instead is simply connecting similar wordings, lumping them together, but with no regard to what occurs "before" what other things... and the like...

soberxp · Jun 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Just for chuckles, I went back to see the article by Walvoord about the "50 reasons' for a pretrib rapture in the OP. I didn't get very far, because near the beginning of his article, I found this:

"While the words rapture and translation are not quite identical, they refer to the same event. By the term rapture, reference is made to the fact that the church is “caught up” from the earth and taken to heaven."

First, he prefers the word "translation" over "rapture", but then goes striaght to "caught up". Unbelievable! Those words are directly connected to the Second Advent!

Then he makes a provably false statement: "the church is "caught-up" form the earth AND TAKEN TO HEAVEN".

So, where is that FACT in Scripture? That's what I've been razor focused on in this thread. What verse actually teaches that resurrected and raptured believers are taken to heaven?

Walvoord simply makes an assumption, and without ANY verse to back up his claim. Though he is a respected scholar and theologian, it is just sad that he makes these kinds of errors.

No wonder evangelicals are so confused, and about a whole lot of things.

This thread has gotten rather off track with the recent discussions about things other than the rapture. It seems obvious that most of these things CANNOT be understood or determined UNTIL they occur. Those alive during that time will then slap their foreheads and cry "Duh"!

In 175 pages, no one has shown any verse that teaches that resurrected and raptured believers are taken to heaven. So even though the great theologian Walvoord claims they will be, no one can prove it from Scripture.

Just sayin'

there is no words of rapture or second coming in The bible.

rapture and great tribulation, only foolish put happy and pain together.

OldSage · Jun 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Hi FG,

Honestly I am clutching somewhat at straws. I don't know much at all and I am really comparing
Rev 17 with Daniel 7, as I think they are complimentary.

But i think the two passages overlap, except that Daniel includes the specific detail of the little horn
that displaces.

My feeling right now is that the little horn answers the question of the strong delusion sent by God
which is another reason to see the little horn as the AC.

Rev 17:2 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13 These are united in yielding their power and authority to the beast; 14 they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”15 And he said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the whore is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the whore; they will make her desolate and naked; they will devour her flesh and burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by agreeing to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

Regarding timing, I am really unclear. Logically these events seem to occur right before the return of Jesus.

cv5 · Jun 10, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Correct. The failure to properly comprehend Luke 21 vs Matt 24 is fatal to understanding end times eschatology. The thing is.....its all laid out. There is in fact ONE ONLY correct interpretation.

I pity those who just don't get it. And this despite irrefutable proofs prolifically provided. Too bad really.

OldSage · Jun 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Just for chuckles, I went back to see the article by Walvoord about the "50 reasons' for a pretrib rapture in the OP. I didn't get very far, because near the beginning of his article, I found this:

"While the words rapture and translation are not quite identical, they refer to the same event. By the term rapture, reference is made to the fact that the church is “caught up” from the earth and taken to heaven."

First, he prefers the word "translation" over "rapture", but then goes striaght to "caught up". Unbelievable! Those words are directly connected to the Second Advent!

Then he makes a provably false statement: "the church is "caught-up" form the earth AND TAKEN TO HEAVEN".

So, where is that FACT in Scripture? That's what I've been razor focused on in this thread. What verse actually teaches that resurrected and raptured believers are taken to heaven?

Walvoord simply makes an assumption, and without ANY verse to back up his claim. Though he is a respected scholar and theologian, it is just sad that he makes these kinds of errors.

No wonder evangelicals are so confused, and about a whole lot of things.

This thread has gotten rather off track with the recent discussions about things other than the rapture. It seems obvious that most of these things CANNOT be understood or determined UNTIL they occur. Those alive during that time will then slap their foreheads and cry "Duh"!

In 175 pages, no one has shown any verse that teaches that resurrected and raptured believers are taken to heaven. So even though the great theologian Walvoord claims they will be, no one can prove it from Scripture.

Just sayin'

1 Thessalonians 4: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
?

Mem · Jun 10, 2021

OldSage said:

FreeGrace2 is right. There is no mention of heaven there.

TheDivineWatermark · Jun 10, 2021

soberxp said:

I realize that some popular new ['anti-pre-trib-rapture / anti-rapture'] authors-of-books endeavor to use Ezekiel 13:20 to be supposedly talking about "warning against ppl who LIE to you about being 'RAPTURED UP/OUT'"... however, I believe they've failed to grasp the actual context, which context is not about the Subject of "RAPTURE" at all (thus is not a warning about ppl [supposedly] "falsely teaching" such a thing)...

...here's an excerpt of one of my old posts (which post was related to my posts on Heb9:8-9a and its "STASIS / STASIN" word, and context there):

[quoting from old post]

Ezekiel 13:20 (often used to mean the OPPOSITE; really means THIS...) -

"20 Therefore, this is what the Lord GOD says: See, I am against the magic charms with which you ensnare souls/lives like birds [same word as in Num17:8 - H6524], and I will tear them from your arms. I will free the souls/lives you have ensnared [same word as in Num17:8 - H6524 (see below, in the esv)] . 21 I will also tear off your veils and deliver My people from your hands, so that they will no longer be prey in your hands. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

"22 Because you have disheartened the righteous with your lies, even though I have caused them no grief, and because you have encouraged the wicked not to turn from their evil ways to save their lives, 23 therefore you will no longer see false visions or practice divination. I will deliver My people from your hands. Then you will know that I am the LORD.” "

Or, v.20 in the esv -

"“Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your magic bands with which you hunt the souls like birds [H6524], and I will tear them from your arms, and I will let the souls whom you hunt go free, the souls like birds [H6524]."

...or in the ylt -

Young's Literal Translation -

"Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I am against your pillows, With which ye are hunting there the souls of the flourishing, And I have rent them from off your arms, And have sent away the souls that ye are hunting, The souls of the flourishing. And I have torn your kerchiefs, And delivered My people out of your hand, And they are no more in your hand for a prey, And ye have known that I am Jehovah. [...] Therefore, vanity ye do not see, And divination ye do not divine again, And I have delivered My people out of your hand, And ye have known that I am Jehovah!'"

[end quoting old post]

____________

[the Subject matter is not covering "RAPTURE" whatsoever, in that context]

soberxp · Jun 10, 2021

It's a stupid idea to embrace the doctrine of man and accuse others of not recognizing the words of the Bible.

No one denies meeting Jesus one day.
But it's not about lifting your flesh body up into the air.

Have you not read that the flesh body cannot bear the kingdom of heaven?
1 Corinthians 15:50

soberxp · Jun 10, 2021

It's a stupid idea to embrace the doctrine of man and accuse others of not recognizing the words of the Bible.

No one denies meeting Jesus one day.
But it's not about lifting your flesh body up into the air.

Have you not read that the flesh body cannot bear the kingdom of heaven?
1 Corinthians 15:50

Accepting the wrong teaching will only destroy your faith

OldSage · Jun 10, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

in Luke 21:12 Jesus tells the church about the great persecution that would happen very soon after his ascension - after the death of Stephen. This actually drove the Church underground for a long time, e.g. AD34 - 45.

Acts 8:1 On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

So there is nothing particularly disruptive about this prophecy.

Absolutely · Jun 10, 2021

OldSage said:

Gary is right. The so-called great tribulation is really a period which has been misappropriated by
eschatology buffs, scholars, call them what you will, and bandied about with such repetition
and insouciance, that the actual simple and staightforward meaning and context have been
buried by the accumulations of stratified discourse.

Thus normally when we (people like Gary or myself) point it out, it goes straight over people's heads,
as the idea is now so alien to conventional thinking. It simply doesn't register because it can't register.

I am pleased that you have at least understood and registered what Gary has said. Bravo Ewq

I was correct in that you are preterist.

I usually leave that to itself.

There is no conversation with that doctrine.

It is way "out there"

OldSage · Jun 10, 2021

Mem said:

Yes but clouds are synonymous with transfiguration.
Where in Scripture was anyone in the clouds in a human body?

OldSage · Jun 10, 2021

Absolutely said:

You've lost me here Absolutely, what is a Preterist to you? Please explain!!

Absolutely · Jun 10, 2021

"""OldSage said:
An overcomer is a victor. In a physical fight it is the stronger person, the Winner."""

ewq1938 said:

All the diciples but john were martyred. Killed by the devil.

All were overcomers.

Not all believers are overcomers.

But in revelation, the ones overcoming are martyred and OVERCOME by the ac ( satan).

Without facts there is no unpacking anything.

Without context and wisdom, knowledge escapes people.

Knowledge of the word is not the highest ground.

Unpacking knowledge is.

soberxp · Jun 10, 2021

I found that some just argue for the sake of argument, not for the sake of true wisdom.

OldSage · Jun 10, 2021

Absolutely said:

Well yes, I agree in a sense.
Overcoming is after the pattern of Christ's Victory over persecution and death,
and clearly Christians are still being martyred.

I am just not so sure the AC obliterates the Church.
I see it the other way around, but I am like that,
an optimist or something.

Absolutely · Jun 10, 2021

OldSage said:

It is a view from the past. the preterist believes that some or all is history with no future fulfilment.

Ad 70 is a partial fulfilment.

Rev 14 is a partial fulfillment but it has not happened yet. Ad 70 has.

Harvest is a law of heaven.
It is in STAGES as God laid out.

Firstfruits is always first. Hence "firstfruits".

Putting more components on the table ( verses) , is higher ground...not lower.

Like the pretribs in this thread.

We are the hound dogs.

We dig and sling off the labels and false doctrine.

But you never will be wondering what we believe if you follow the posts.

Most others make us guess.

But some flat out decieve and lie,
Claiming dead men guide me and have influenced my view.

BTW ,Not you

When you see the postrib desperation of invoking dead men as CRITICAL, and maligning others with some connection that is a flat out lie, it taints truth

They are agents of something intending to reframe truth.

TheDivineWatermark · Jun 10, 2021

soberxp said:

We won't be in our mortal bodies at that point... but will have experienced the "change" that 1Cor15:51-54 speaks of--"THIS MORTAL must put on immortality" (etc) [also 2Cor5:2-4 "but CLOTHED UPON [i.e. with our 'glorified body'], that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE"]; as well as Philippians 3:20-21 - " 20 For our citizenship exists in the heavens, from whence also we are awaiting a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our body of humiliation, conformed to the body of His glory, according to the working enabling Him even to subdue all things to Himself." Oh, and 1Jn3:2 - "Beloved, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is."

cv5 · Jun 10, 2021

Absolutely said:

I am watching this thread and I can say many posters here have NEVER contributed anything that is actually correct exegesis supported by scripture. Quite literally 100% wrong 100% of the time. No conceptual model of the truth that is based in Biblical reality.

But the truth of the doctrine of the rapture has been set forth in all necessary detail. So our job is done....

Absolutely · Jun 10, 2021

OldSage said:

It is his job. He is doing a job. It is satanic and ruthless.

".....and power was given him to OVERCOME THE SAINTS"

REV 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

SEE THAT?
THE AC KILLS all the saints.

50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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