Where the text states "these are the ones coming out of THE GREAT tribulation," I believe that phrase is referencing the second half of the Trib (all throughout), when the ac will have implemented his "mark". I believe vv.16-17 parallel Isaiah 49:10 an earthly Millennial Kingdom context). The "5th SEAL" martyrs are the ones being referenced in Matt24:9 (etc) in the FIRST HALF of the "7 years" (prior to the ac implementing his "mark")
50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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I read the bible.
It says , or should i say " Jesus says"...."pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth and stand before the son of God"
Then this;
" ..because you have kept my word i will keep you from the trial about to come upon the entire world"
Then this;
Mat
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Vivid Picture of the rapture
It says , or should i say " Jesus says"...."pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth and stand before the son of God"
Then this;
" ..because you have kept my word i will keep you from the trial about to come upon the entire world"
Then this;
Mat
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Vivid Picture of the rapture
The achilles heel of your theory is that NONE of the actual rapture verses indicate that any resurrected and raptured believers are removed from earth and taken to heaven.
I used to think that too. But since the Bema is 1,000 yrs before the GWT judgment, only unbelievers will be there, in the "second resurrection" and will be facing the "second death".
I used to think that too. But since the Bema is 1,000 yrs before the GWT judgment, only unbelievers will be there, in the "second resurrection" and will be facing the "second death".
FreeGrace2 said:
Huh? What verse says this?
OK, 2 Cor 5:1 says the "building of God" is 'in the heavens". It doesn't say resurrected believers are GIVEN that imperishable body IN heaven.
The 1 Peter verses also do not say the resurrection bodies are given IN heaven. Yes, they are "reserved in heaven for you", but that phrase doesn't mean they are given IN heaven.
I think it's clear from 1 Thess 4 that Jesus brings all the saints in heaven to the clouds where He and them meet the living believers in the air and ALL believers receive their imperishable bodies, the dead first.
Huh? What verse says this?
OK, 2 Cor 5:1 says the "building of God" is 'in the heavens". It doesn't say resurrected believers are GIVEN that imperishable body IN heaven.
The 1 Peter verses also do not say the resurrection bodies are given IN heaven. Yes, they are "reserved in heaven for you", but that phrase doesn't mean they are given IN heaven.
I think it's clear from 1 Thess 4 that Jesus brings all the saints in heaven to the clouds where He and them meet the living believers in the air and ALL believers receive their imperishable bodies, the dead first.
Given all the verses posted by most of the posters here, everyone does.
It doesn't take a departure from this world to escape the Trib. And still you haven't provided any verses that speak of resurrectted and raptured believers departing earth for heaven.
Did you notice the context? You said you read the Bible. Then you should know the context.
Rev 3:10 - 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
It is only those believers who have kept Jesus' command to endure patients who wil be kept from the hour of trial that is coming.
Are you prepared to argue that the rapture is only for some believers?
In fact, God "kept the Israelites from the hour of trial that came upon all of Egypt".
Well, maybe for those who are just "seeing" things. But of course one would also be forced to spiritualize the parable intensely to come up with a parallel to a rapture.
It doesn't take a departure from this world to escape the Trib. And still you haven't provided any verses that speak of resurrectted and raptured believers departing earth for heaven.
Did you notice the context? You said you read the Bible. Then you should know the context.
Rev 3:10 - 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
It is only those believers who have kept Jesus' command to endure patients who wil be kept from the hour of trial that is coming.
Are you prepared to argue that the rapture is only for some believers?
In fact, God "kept the Israelites from the hour of trial that came upon all of Egypt".
Well, maybe for those who are just "seeing" things. But of course one would also be forced to spiritualize the parable intensely to come up with a parallel to a rapture.
Not the faithful ones. Remember Rev 3:10?
So what? Everyone dies eventually. All except the minority who are raptured when Jesus comes.
Actually, Rev 6:8 says - I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
If "fourth of the earth" refers to population numbers and not geographical landmass, and combined with Rev 9:15 - And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. then by the end of the Trib, at least HALF of the earth's population will be killed.
That is about 3.5 billion people.
So what? Everyone dies eventually. All except the minority who are raptured when Jesus comes.
Actually, Rev 6:8 says - I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
If "fourth of the earth" refers to population numbers and not geographical landmass, and combined with Rev 9:15 - And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. then by the end of the Trib, at least HALF of the earth's population will be killed.
That is about 3.5 billion people.
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Of course... the first horseman is the START of the 7 yrs...
Even at the SECOND SEAL *wars* (which I see Ezek38-39 to be a PART of), it says of it: "to take peace from the earth, and that they should KILL one another"... and mentions the "a great SWORD"... which I've said in past posts I see as parallel to Ezek38:21 [as a PART of it] which says, "And I will summon a sword against Gog on all My mountains, declares the Lord GOD, and every man’s sword will be against his brother." (note where I've pointed out the similarities between the wording in Ezek39:7 with what Joseph did in his SECOND YEAR of his "SEVEN YEAR FAMINE"... where the wording in Gen45:1[6] parallels that of Ezek39:7 [in this particular *war*], also 46:2 [parallel vv. regarding the ac / i.e."IN THE NIGHT" time-period (Dan7:7, etc)]).
So, I am NOT suggesting that the FIRST HALF is a mere "PICNIC," as you suggest I'm saying. NO.
I'm saying ALL SEVEN YEARS (SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS) are His "IN FLAMING FIRE [see again Lam2:3], INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." and "WRATH" (when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [Lam2:3-4 parallel language to 2Th2:7b-8a],...);
But Jesus Himself calls "GREAT tribulation" as being what follows on from the "AOD [singular/singular]" point in time, that Daniel had spoken of [Dan12:11 "singular/singular"]... He is also saying that ppl will "KILL" early on in those years (BEFORE the AOD point in time, i.e. IN THE FIRST HALF). No one is denying that.
Even at the SECOND SEAL *wars* (which I see Ezek38-39 to be a PART of), it says of it: "to take peace from the earth, and that they should KILL one another"... and mentions the "a great SWORD"... which I've said in past posts I see as parallel to Ezek38:21 [as a PART of it] which says, "And I will summon a sword against Gog on all My mountains, declares the Lord GOD, and every man’s sword will be against his brother." (note where I've pointed out the similarities between the wording in Ezek39:7 with what Joseph did in his SECOND YEAR of his "SEVEN YEAR FAMINE"... where the wording in Gen45:1[6] parallels that of Ezek39:7 [in this particular *war*], also 46:2 [parallel vv. regarding the ac / i.e."IN THE NIGHT" time-period (Dan7:7, etc)]).
So, I am NOT suggesting that the FIRST HALF is a mere "PICNIC," as you suggest I'm saying. NO.
I'm saying ALL SEVEN YEARS (SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS) are His "IN FLAMING FIRE [see again Lam2:3], INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." and "WRATH" (when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [Lam2:3-4 parallel language to 2Th2:7b-8a],...);
But Jesus Himself calls "GREAT tribulation" as being what follows on from the "AOD [singular/singular]" point in time, that Daniel had spoken of [Dan12:11 "singular/singular"]... He is also saying that ppl will "KILL" early on in those years (BEFORE the AOD point in time, i.e. IN THE FIRST HALF). No one is denying that.
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I can't recall if I've asked you this before (as I've addressed this with others), what do you think Jesus meant when He said (to the 12):
--"[when...]... ye also shall sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel." - Lk22:30 / Matt19:28 [with this latter verse paralleling the TIMING also shown in Matt25:31-34]
...In your view, what and when is this referring to?
--"[when...]... ye also shall sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel." - Lk22:30 / Matt19:28 [with this latter verse paralleling the TIMING also shown in Matt25:31-34]
...In your view, what and when is this referring to?
And 1Th 4:16 says the dead are resurrected BEFORE anyone is in the clouds proving they do resurrect in heaven. There is NOTHING about the dead resurrecting in the clouds. Even the raptured saints are made immortal BEFORE being in the clouds. The same is true about the dead being immortal before they arrive at the clouds.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Jesus was speaking, in his Olivet Discourse, of the opportunity the Jewish Disciples had to escape the coming holocaust at Jerusalem in 70 AD. They did escape, and it was recorded that they fled to Pella. The judgment of the Jews in 70 AD came against Israel for their sins, for their lack of repentance, and for their rejection of the word of their Messiah, Jesus. None of this has a thing to do with the Rapture of the Church.
The escape of the Philadelphian Church from the trial coming upon the whole world did not refer to the Reign of Antichrist. It was something that happened in John's day, to the Philadelphian Church. Again, this had nothing whatsoever to do with the Rapture of the Church.
If all you're trying to do is prove that sometimes Christians are given to escape judgments that come upon the world, you've succeeded. But you've not succeeded in showing that these things have a thing to do with escaping the reign of Antichrist. We are told in the book of Revelation that Christians are called to endure during that time. And we are told that a number of Christians are beheaded for their testimony. Furthermore, we are not to take away from the words of this book. Neither should you try to "take away the Church" from this time period!
The parable merely explains that some Jews will be rejected, while some are accepted by Jesus at his Coming. I don't know why this needs to be proven? I think everybody accepts that!
The escape of the Philadelphian Church from the trial coming upon the whole world did not refer to the Reign of Antichrist. It was something that happened in John's day, to the Philadelphian Church. Again, this had nothing whatsoever to do with the Rapture of the Church.
If all you're trying to do is prove that sometimes Christians are given to escape judgments that come upon the world, you've succeeded. But you've not succeeded in showing that these things have a thing to do with escaping the reign of Antichrist. We are told in the book of Revelation that Christians are called to endure during that time. And we are told that a number of Christians are beheaded for their testimony. Furthermore, we are not to take away from the words of this book. Neither should you try to "take away the Church" from this time period!
The parable merely explains that some Jews will be rejected, while some are accepted by Jesus at his Coming. I don't know why this needs to be proven? I think everybody accepts that!
Personally (and I could be wrong), but I think he is referring to "those who SLEEP [G2837] THROUGH Jesus" (1Th4:14 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm )... [i.e. "the dead in Christ"]
... who are "absent from the body" (though "present" with the Lord), per 2Cor5:6,8, and where verse 6 says, "... KNOWING THAT, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord."
... who are "absent from the body" (though "present" with the Lord), per 2Cor5:6,8, and where verse 6 says, "... KNOWING THAT, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord."
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Abs does indeed believe in the "partial-rapture theory" (and he believes in "multiple raptures"); his views, I must say, are unusual and not in line with the regular "pre-trib viewpoint"... just to let you know, in case you were not aware.
I still enjoy his enthusiasm and personality though, lol.
I still enjoy his enthusiasm and personality though, lol.
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Oh? When did you say that? I guess I missed it...?
I have tried to make my charts as user friendly as possible.
I did. And, it is the chart.
That is what the chart is for:
1) an already-assembled collection of Bible verses/passages - the significance of which is present in the patterns-of-comparison (columns and rows, in this case)
2) it keeps me from having to write the same thing over and over and over and...
3) some of my charts are simply too large to post in a thread
Also, for the most part, my charts are composed entirely of Bible verses - arranged in a meaningful way.
This is intentional - because, I want people to see the significance-of-truth in the verses themselves - not just simply from some explanation that I write on the page.
The charts are like opening the Bible to all of the places of scripture relative to the topic at the same time.
If you cannot "make heads or tails" of that --- then, I am not sure what to tell you...
I have tried to make my charts as user friendly as possible.
I did. And, it is the chart.
That is what the chart is for:
1) an already-assembled collection of Bible verses/passages - the significance of which is present in the patterns-of-comparison (columns and rows, in this case)
2) it keeps me from having to write the same thing over and over and over and...
3) some of my charts are simply too large to post in a thread
Also, for the most part, my charts are composed entirely of Bible verses - arranged in a meaningful way.
This is intentional - because, I want people to see the significance-of-truth in the verses themselves - not just simply from some explanation that I write on the page.
The charts are like opening the Bible to all of the places of scripture relative to the topic at the same time.
If you cannot "make heads or tails" of that --- then, I am not sure what to tell you...
Let me ask you something...
What singular-precise-and-specific thing do you believe marks the actual moment the GT is over?
At what definable moment has it reached the end?
If all of the things described in verse 29 occur after it is over (already reached the end - and, has ended), what actually defines the end of it - after which those things happen?
What singular-precise-and-specific thing do you believe marks the actual moment the GT is over?
At what definable moment has it reached the end?
If all of the things described in verse 29 occur after it is over (already reached the end - and, has ended), what actually defines the end of it - after which those things happen?
Here is chapter 5 of Revelation
I hope that you will take the time to read this. I do not agree with you but I am going to try and explain just why I don't agree with you from the bible. No church doctrine, no traditions of men that make void the word of God. Just God's word.
Chapter 5:1 And I saw . . . with seven seals.[ 7 in God's word meaning spiritual completeness; and the 7 spirits of God will tell us how that will come to be. This book is the word and who is the word The Logos it is Jesus Christ the living word. He paid an awesome price as we will see as we move on to brake the seals so we could come to understand them in the simplicity in which God intended for it to be read and taught. Most of the time it is sweet as honey but it can also be bitter at times because people will ridicule you they may even take a swing at you. The truth is some people are going to persecute you; you can handle it you have the armor of God. It is a good price to pay to wake a few people up.] Within and on the backside [Simply means it is complete it had everything in it] Verse 2. And I saw . . . the seals thereof?” [This is a strong angle with a loud voice; not some wimp] Verse 3. And no man . . . to look thereon. [pay attention to the geographical location] Verse 3. And no man . . . to look thereon. [look at how inclusive this is not in heaven, not on earth, nor under the earth. Nowhere was there a man to open it.]Verse 4And I wept . . . to look thereon. [They just weren't fit. To look therein for your eyes to fall upon the words and you to absorb it. Stop and thank before you had God do you thank you were worthy?] Verse 5. And one of . . . seven seals thereof.” [That is Jesus Christ The Son of God after He died on the cross, paid the ,price so that when you repent and truly except Him you are worthy, you become worthy and able to open the book and look therein and understand. That means that God through The Holy Spirit can remove the blinders, the ignorance of your mind and allow you to get that understanding. Through Him. It is sad the prophets longed to see what we have today and we don't take advantage of it. But Keith we go to church, to Sunday school etc. but do they teach you from some book written by man that may or may not have that understanding; or do you set in church and get a verse her and there and then a story that goes along with it about “Robbin Hood” or the way granny did it ect; or do you get fed the meat of the word so that you can grow in your love, understanding and work for God. Remember at one time no man was worthy unless God came to him an showed it to him. Today the way is open we can go right into the Holy of Hollies and get the answers from God.] Verse 6. And I beheld . . . all the earth. [ What is your time element “A lamb slain” naturally we are after the crucifixion but when. This is the Lords day the first day of the millennium looking back in time. What are these 7 spirits set forth upon the whole earth? They are the seven lights from the menorah of Zechariah chapter 4 and that fine oil that fed them would be the two witnesses of the earth and the seven eyes of Zechariah 3 are Gods election chosen before the foundations of this earth to have eyes to see and bring that truth forward to the world. When it was ready those seven spirits being the Holy Spirit of course. If you were to read in Zechariah chapter 4 the light is Christ for He is our light and life. The holy spirit caused the oil to flow through those stems not by gravity, and not by man but by The Holy Spirit that is the truth filtering into the minds of those that would have eyes to see and ears to hear. Verse 7.And He came . . . upon the throne. [Who is holding the book and who is on the throne? God. Verse 8. And when He . . . prayers of saints. [Don't ever say I wish God would hear my prayers. He not only hears them He bottles them up and saves them] Verse 9. And they sung . . . people, and nation: [This is who so ever will; That is everyone with free will have the privilege to except that salvation offered to them and have eternal life. We see here that many did overcome.] Verse 10. And hast made . . . on the earth” [this is going back to the set aside ones this is documented in Revelation 20:6 you can also find it in Ezekiel 44:23-27] Verse 11. And I beheld . . . thousands and thousands; [ So many people you could not count the.] Verse 12. Saying with a . . . glory and blessing.” [the 7 spirits of God and the 7 things received (gifts) how are you doing in that category] Verse 13. And every creature . . . ever and ever.” [remember we are in the Lords Day at this time, the first day of the Lords Day1,000 years with the Lord is as a day with man, an a thousand year period is a millennium. What happens on that first day every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord.] Verse 14. And the four . . . ever and ever.[ “Amen” that is that and there is no changing it.]
You misunderstand what is being said in Revelation 5:9 Jesus has redeamed us to God by the sheding of His blood on the cross and He did that for every person regardless of who they are. Out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Without the cross without the blood there would be NO redemption for us to God. We would be permently seperated from Him. This is not talking about a rapture, or something of that nature. It is talking about our salvation. If you read on you find out what these 7 seals are in verses 12&13.
I hope that you will take the time to read this. I do not agree with you but I am going to try and explain just why I don't agree with you from the bible. No church doctrine, no traditions of men that make void the word of God. Just God's word.
Chapter 5:1 And I saw . . . with seven seals.[ 7 in God's word meaning spiritual completeness; and the 7 spirits of God will tell us how that will come to be. This book is the word and who is the word The Logos it is Jesus Christ the living word. He paid an awesome price as we will see as we move on to brake the seals so we could come to understand them in the simplicity in which God intended for it to be read and taught. Most of the time it is sweet as honey but it can also be bitter at times because people will ridicule you they may even take a swing at you. The truth is some people are going to persecute you; you can handle it you have the armor of God. It is a good price to pay to wake a few people up.] Within and on the backside [Simply means it is complete it had everything in it] Verse 2. And I saw . . . the seals thereof?” [This is a strong angle with a loud voice; not some wimp] Verse 3. And no man . . . to look thereon. [pay attention to the geographical location] Verse 3. And no man . . . to look thereon. [look at how inclusive this is not in heaven, not on earth, nor under the earth. Nowhere was there a man to open it.]Verse 4And I wept . . . to look thereon. [They just weren't fit. To look therein for your eyes to fall upon the words and you to absorb it. Stop and thank before you had God do you thank you were worthy?] Verse 5. And one of . . . seven seals thereof.” [That is Jesus Christ The Son of God after He died on the cross, paid the ,price so that when you repent and truly except Him you are worthy, you become worthy and able to open the book and look therein and understand. That means that God through The Holy Spirit can remove the blinders, the ignorance of your mind and allow you to get that understanding. Through Him. It is sad the prophets longed to see what we have today and we don't take advantage of it. But Keith we go to church, to Sunday school etc. but do they teach you from some book written by man that may or may not have that understanding; or do you set in church and get a verse her and there and then a story that goes along with it about “Robbin Hood” or the way granny did it ect; or do you get fed the meat of the word so that you can grow in your love, understanding and work for God. Remember at one time no man was worthy unless God came to him an showed it to him. Today the way is open we can go right into the Holy of Hollies and get the answers from God.] Verse 6. And I beheld . . . all the earth. [ What is your time element “A lamb slain” naturally we are after the crucifixion but when. This is the Lords day the first day of the millennium looking back in time. What are these 7 spirits set forth upon the whole earth? They are the seven lights from the menorah of Zechariah chapter 4 and that fine oil that fed them would be the two witnesses of the earth and the seven eyes of Zechariah 3 are Gods election chosen before the foundations of this earth to have eyes to see and bring that truth forward to the world. When it was ready those seven spirits being the Holy Spirit of course. If you were to read in Zechariah chapter 4 the light is Christ for He is our light and life. The holy spirit caused the oil to flow through those stems not by gravity, and not by man but by The Holy Spirit that is the truth filtering into the minds of those that would have eyes to see and ears to hear. Verse 7.And He came . . . upon the throne. [Who is holding the book and who is on the throne? God. Verse 8. And when He . . . prayers of saints. [Don't ever say I wish God would hear my prayers. He not only hears them He bottles them up and saves them] Verse 9. And they sung . . . people, and nation: [This is who so ever will; That is everyone with free will have the privilege to except that salvation offered to them and have eternal life. We see here that many did overcome.] Verse 10. And hast made . . . on the earth” [this is going back to the set aside ones this is documented in Revelation 20:6 you can also find it in Ezekiel 44:23-27] Verse 11. And I beheld . . . thousands and thousands; [ So many people you could not count the.] Verse 12. Saying with a . . . glory and blessing.” [the 7 spirits of God and the 7 things received (gifts) how are you doing in that category] Verse 13. And every creature . . . ever and ever.” [remember we are in the Lords Day at this time, the first day of the Lords Day1,000 years with the Lord is as a day with man, an a thousand year period is a millennium. What happens on that first day every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord.] Verse 14. And the four . . . ever and ever.[ “Amen” that is that and there is no changing it.]
You misunderstand what is being said in Revelation 5:9 Jesus has redeamed us to God by the sheding of His blood on the cross and He did that for every person regardless of who they are. Out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Without the cross without the blood there would be NO redemption for us to God. We would be permently seperated from Him. This is not talking about a rapture, or something of that nature. It is talking about our salvation. If you read on you find out what these 7 seals are in verses 12&13.