A Perspective on Evolution

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

I believe that man was:

  • Created in one day by God

    Votes: 19 63.3%
  • Created by God over millions of years via evolution

    Votes: 3 10.0%
  • Created accidentally by random processes over millions of years

    Votes: 3 10.0%
  • Created by extraterrestrials in an alien lab

    Votes: 2 6.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 10.0%

  • Total voters
    30
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oct 17, 2009
325
1
0
I wouldn't waste your words, Misa. You're talking to a bona-fide geocentrist.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
Evolution does not violate the second law of thermodynamics
Ahhh, Yes it does.


. If it did, evolution would probably no longer be a scientific theory.
'Theory' being the operative word.

Please do not confuse a scientific theory with the colloquial english version of the word.
lol, OK. well I don't think I did confuse these two terms, I have been referring to 'evolution' as a scientific theory, how does the 'colloquial english version of the word' differ? Is there two seperate theories?

It does not mean "a good guess," and it is not below the status of a scientific law.
I would call it; false science, a poor assumption that is scientifically and Biblically inaccurate, OK, I'll be completely honest, I think 'evolution' is one of the most evil Satanic derived concepts ever to creep up out of the grates of Hell.


A scientific theory is a framework of ideas and principles used to explain phenomenon observed in the universe, that is testable and falsifiable, and based on data and evidence. In the scientific community, the theory of evolution by natural selection is akin to the theory of gravity - its about as close to fact as you can get. If anyone has ever laughed at you for saying something along the lines of "Evolution is just a theory", then now you know why.
Do you really believe that, or are you just copying some form of sophistry?

Anyway, back to the second law of thermodynamics. I am guessing that you don't actually know much about physics.
Actually I am quite literate in the sciences.


I can't say I am a physics genius either, as I've only had the opportunity to take one physics class. However, I do know enough about thermodynamics to clear up your misunderstandings.

The second law says something along the lines about how the entropy of a closed system cannot decrease. I don't think I need to explain entropy to you, so I'll just move ahead to the point...

It seems you don't even pay attention to the "closed system" part of the law. It's like you assumed that order from disorder violates the law, which isn't true. Entropy within a closed system can decrease, as long as the overall entropy of the closed system doesn't.
Lets give the system for you, shall we define the in a solar system seeming we are discussing thermodynamics, Earth and our planetary system as recieving energy in the form of heat from one source, namely the Sun. So we have one sun in this system, meaning 'solar system', seeming there is no other source of heat for the system, it is by logic 'closed', now ask yourself is or is not the thermodynamics of the Sun in our closed solar system subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics? Well Yes of course.
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
Hypothesis

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A hypothesis (from Greek ὑπόθεσις; plural hypotheses) is a proposed explanation for an observable phenomenon. The term derives from the Greek, ὑποτιθέναι - hypotithenai meaning "to put under" or "to suppose." For a hypothesis to be put forward as a scientific hypothesis, the scientific method requires that one can test it. Scientists generally base scientific hypotheses on previous observations that cannot be satisfactorily explained with the available scientific theories. Even though the words "hypothesis" and "theory" are often used synonymously in common and informal usage, a scientific hypothesis is not the same as a scientific theory – although the difference is sometimes more one of degree than of principle.
A working hypothesis is a provisionally accepted hypothesis.
Scientific theory

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the sciences, a scientific theory (also called an empirical theory) comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as a principle or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena.[1]
A scientific theory can be considered a deductive theory, in that its content could be expressed in some formal system of logic in which its elementary rules are taken as axioms. In a deductive theory, any sentence which is a logical consequence of one or more of the axioms is also a sentence of that theory.[2]
In the humanities, one finds theories whose subject matter does not (only) concern empirical data, but rather ideas. Such theories are in the realm of philosophical theories as contrasted with scientific theories. A philosophical theory is not necessarily scientifically testable through experiment.


Evolution can only be considered a theory from an Humanities point of view.
To be a Scientific theory it needs to be testable by experiment.
The Evolutionary Hypothesis DOES NOT conform to the observable data nor at least one established Scientific Law.

There are many versions of the second law, but they all have the same effect, which is to explain the phenomenon of irreversibility in nature.
In thermodynamics, a reversible process, or reversible cycle if the process is cyclic, is a process that can be "reversed" by means of infinitesimal changes in some property of the system without loss or dissipation of energy.[1] Due to these infinitesimal changes, the system is in thermodynamic equilibrium throughout the entire process. So that the process can be defined by a mathematical function. Since it would take an infinite amount of time for the reversible process to finish, perfectly reversible processes are impossible. However, if the system undergoing the changes responds much faster than the applied change, the deviation from reversibility may be negligible. In a reversible cycle, the system and its surroundings will be exactly the same after each cycle.[2]
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
The whole open/closed system thing still does not deal with the fact that the system is becoming more complex, ie acquiring more order. You can have all the energy you want but any system will only acquire more order if work is done on it AND Order is IMPOSED on it. ie Intelligence.
 
Dec 6, 2009
103
0
0
Cup, I don't mean to be rude, but you are very ignorant of the topic that we are speaking of. I will answer all of your statements, if you really want, but I feel it will be a waste of time since you arguments against mine were basically saying "Nuh uh, you're wrong! I have nothing to back me up on this, but you're totally wrong!"
 
Oct 17, 2009
325
1
0
The whole open/closed system thing still does not deal with the fact that the system is becoming more complex, ie acquiring more order. You can have all the energy you want but any system will only acquire more order if work is done on it AND Order is IMPOSED on it. ie Intelligence.
You're still missing the point. The energy which comes from the sun and which we acquire from food allows our cells to do the work necessary to acquire more order. God has imposed intelligence on our biosphere in the form of DNA, the basic genetic material. It's thanks to DNA and the changes that our environments enact on it that organisms are able to change and grow more adapted.
Actually I am quite literate in the sciences.
Last time I checked, lying was a sin.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
Cup, I don't mean to be rude, but you are very ignorant of the topic that we are speaking of. I will answer all of your statements, if you really want, but I feel it will be a waste of time since you arguments against mine were basically saying "Nuh uh, you're wrong! I have nothing to back me up on this, but you're totally wrong!"
Is, or is not the Sun in our Solar System subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics? Just answer the question, I know the answer, but you need to answer it.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
A good way to think logically about this would be to imagine a pile of bricks on the back of a tip truck, if the driver drops the load of bricks off the end of the truck, the mostly likely outcome for the bricks is that they will fall radomly in a disorderly pile, it is highly unlikely that they will fall into an orderly stack or even a wall or a house, which require order and design, the most likely outcome is disorder rather than order, or it could be stated, 'order tends towards disorder', the pile of bricks left alone will not produce frther complexity or energy or order or design but will left alone simple tend toward more entropy, more disorder until finailly they will disintergrate to the stage where they can no longer be classified as a pile of bricks, but eventually a pile of dust to be scattered to the four winds. A random jumble will not organize itself.
 
Last edited:
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
Life can be described as organization . From prokaryotic cells, tissues, organs, plants to animals, families communities, ecosystems, planets, wherever we desribe life it can be described as organized. For evolutionary Darwinism to be of account it must be in violation of increasing entropy and this must happen continually, prepertually forever in complete denial and contradiction of natural, logical laws of nature.

Most Evo's just ignore this staggering fact, there only refuge is denial or to seek refuge in some confusion between there being two types entropy, for example; 'closed' or 'open', however logic declares that the larger system is also subject to the same law, whether open or closed the law remains the same, if you consider the larger system in our case as I previously defined - solar system - we find both Earth and Sun subject to the same law, thermodynamic entropy of the sun increases over time, which amounts to less energy, less order, less complexity, less diversity.
 
Dec 6, 2009
103
0
0
I'm going to give up. I can see this conversation is headed towards us talking in circles.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
I'm going to give up. I can see this conversation is headed towards us talking in circles.
Is, or is not the Sun subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, yes or no? Quite a simple question.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
Here's the First Law of Thermodynamics;

"The first law of Thermodynamics is often called the Law of Conservation of Energy. This law suggests that energy can be transferred from one systam to another in many forms. Also, it cannot be created or destroyed, but remains constant, the total amount of energy available in the Universe is constant."
 
Dec 6, 2009
103
0
0
I don't think I've ever met anyone who doesn't know about the "matter can not be created nor destroyed" law.

As for the sun question, I think I know where this is headed.

I worded myself very poorly last time because I was getting tired of typing, and I'm going to word myself a bit poorly this time because I'm juggling a million conversation at once (because of msn and facebook).

The earth is not a closed system. - get our energy from the sun, yo

Life is not a closed system

The universe is a closed system.

Do you know where I'm headed with this, dawg?
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
Mia, I will give you infinite energy and infinite time. You still will not get an increase in complexity without an intelligence imposing order from outside. This gives you theistic evolution.

The truth is we have limited evolution and very limited time. Therefore even Theistic evolution is untenable.
Any observed mutations have been negative not positive.
The concept of a huge sequence of positive mutations is out of the question
AND EVEN IF IT WEREN'T

Only life produces life.
 
Dec 6, 2009
103
0
0
ive been drinking too much. get back to me tmr
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
The universe is a closed system.

Do you know where I'm headed with this, dawg?
OK, this will do, eventually we just get to the largest system, which is closed of course, so apply the SLOT, we have the earth located in a closed system recieving heat from a sun located in a closed system, regardless the law remains the same, so the conclusion is that entropy increases over time within the Universe which you admit is closed, which is true, so 'Evolutionary Theory' is in stark contradiction to the SLOT and is a violation of the natural law, this is also in contradiction to the Biblical account which agrees with the SLOT, which is what I have stated, which is true.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
Mia, I will give you infinite energy and infinite time. You still will not get an increase in complexity without an intelligence imposing order from outside. This gives you theistic evolution.

The truth is we have limited evolution and very limited time. Therefore even Theistic evolution is untenable.
Any observed mutations have been negative not positive.
The concept of a huge sequence of positive mutations is out of the question
AND EVEN IF IT WEREN'T

Only life produces life.
Yes, all this is true, mutations are just destruction of genetic material, the end result is, over time, negative, except in Hollywood where mutants are beneficial and improved, however in the real world, mutants represent a loss of genetic material which adversely efffects their ability, hinders their fitness to life in general, a mutation is destruction of order, there is no getting around this statement to prove otherwise.
 
Oct 17, 2009
325
1
0
Yes, all this is true, mutations are just destruction of genetic material, the end result is, over time, negative, except in Hollywood where mutants are beneficial and improved, however in the real world, mutants represent a loss of genetic material which adversely efffects their ability, hinders their fitness to life in general, a mutation is destruction of order, there is no getting around this statement to prove otherwise.
We've been over this before, Cup. Not all mutations are destructive. Most of them have no visible effect whatsoever. Harmful mutations die out of the gene pool. Those few that are helpful stay in and cause changes in the overall genetic make-up of the species.

Very gradually.
The truth is we have limited evolution and very limited time. Therefore even Theistic evolution is untenable.
'Theistic' and 'untenable' are for all intents and purposes mutually contradictory. If God is involved, then it can't be untenable because He's freaking God. He can do anything He wants.
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
Brackenzee, there has NOT been enough time. The Earth is provably less than 10,000 years old.
God could have chosen to use evolution but he did not.

He also foresaw the controversy.
That is why the Bible mentions 'after their kind'.
also it says 'evening and morning were one day'

No mutations, not enough time.
 

Kathleen

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2009
3,570
6
38
i reckon the world is about 6,000 years old

- related to the above post btw :D


... :D ...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.