C
Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac and Ethics.
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M
MadParrotWoman
Guest
You are correct, God is the creator and as such can do as he pleases. He is the creator of morality, He does not have to bow to the standards of the created. God is sovereign - ruler if you like and we bow to Him. God is all knowing among all His other attributes (elf3 did a really good thread on this a while back) and there is nothing we should not be prepared to do for Him, of course we all fall short at times but it's what we aim for that counts. It's a journey, a lifelong journey.
C
CRC
Guest
However, Abraham was confident of the promise that God made respecting his seed. Isaac was central to the prophecy and the promise. (Hebrews 11:17-19)
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac—the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son— 18 although it had been said to him: “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 19 But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac—the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son— 18 although it had been said to him: “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 19 But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way.
this your post contradicts your previous post.
i.e. GOD did not violate any ethics or conscious, period.
remember when men went through the camp, and thrust through with a spear or a sword and killed their own relatives?
GOD made of them who did this the tribe of priests for service to HIM. they did as HE directed.
i.e. GOD did not violate any ethics or conscious, period.
remember when men went through the camp, and thrust through with a spear or a sword and killed their own relatives?
GOD made of them who did this the tribe of priests for service to HIM. they did as HE directed.
M
MadParrotWoman
Guest
Don't even get me started on man's "ethics" - the kind of ethics which makes it acceptable to kill a child and deprive it of a life God had planned for it, the kind of ethics which allows us to choose to opt out of life when it gets too tough or painful.
Truly man is born bad and we only have to see the news to know how far we have fallen and how easily we fall short also whilst claiming the moral high standard. It never ceases to amaze me of what man is capable of doing to his fellow man and how easily we follow suit like sheep. Yes let's not even go there.
I know which (or who's) "ethics" I prefer to follow.
Truly man is born bad and we only have to see the news to know how far we have fallen and how easily we fall short also whilst claiming the moral high standard. It never ceases to amaze me of what man is capable of doing to his fellow man and how easily we follow suit like sheep. Yes let's not even go there.
I know which (or who's) "ethics" I prefer to follow.
There is a certain farm. One day the farmer tells his farmhand to slaughter his favorite sheep which the farmhand raised from a lamb. Before the farmhand slaughters his favorite sheep, the farmer appears with a piece of prepared mutton and therefore spares the sheep.
Is it unethical for the farmer to command his own servant to do whatsoever he pleases with what is his?
Is it unethical for the farmer to command his own servant to do whatsoever he pleases with what is his?
I am confuse because it was a sin for children of Israel to sacrifice their children as the heathens who sacrifice their children to Molech deity in Leviticus 18:21
That is why the atheist debate on the ETHIC ISSUE because atheist knows the scriptures better than most Christians. The atheist study the Sacred Word daily because that is atheist strategy because the atheist knows by experience most Christians do not study the history of Jewish faith to get understanding of Christian faith or most Christians do not read the Sacred Word in context.
King James Bible
And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
You are not to make any of your children pass through the fire to Molech. Do not profane the name of your God; I am Yahweh.
Find the following verses interesting: It was a testing of Obedience
[h=1]Genesis 22 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]The Sacrifice of Isaac[/h]22 After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he answered.
8 Abraham answered, “God Himself will provide[b] the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” Then the two of them walked on together.
Hallelujah Hallelujah!!!
12 Then He said, “Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from Me.” 13 Abraham looked up and saw a ram[d] caught in the thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram and offered it as a burnt offering in place of his son. 14 And Abraham named that place The Lord Will Provide,[e] so today it is said: “It will be provided[f] on the Lord’s mountain.”
15 Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn,” this is the Lord’s declaration: “Because you have done this thing and have not withheld your only son,[g] 17 I will indeed bless you and make your offspring as numerous as the stars of the sky and the sand on the seashore. Your offspring will possess the gates of their enemies. 18 And all the nations of the earth will be blessed[h] by your off spring because you have obeyed My command.”
Hallelujah Hallelujah!! I believe Abraham trusted ABBA to provide the lamb because of his obedience to ABBA command.
In the Hebrew tradition this is called, Akedah (the binding) and nissah/test means to prove the quality of not " to entice to do wrong. God used the event to affirm the sterling character of Abraham's faith.
3. Of the highest quality: a person of sterling character.
How many Christians today would be obedient as Abraham to sacrifice your most prize possession that you love so much?
AKEDAH (ʿAqedah; Heb. הָדֵקֲע, lit. "binding (of Isaac)"), the Pentateuchal narrative (Gen. 22:1–19) describing God's command to *Abraham to offer *Isaac, the son of his old age, as a sacrifice. Obedient to the command, Abraham takes Isaac to the place of sacrifice and binds him (va-ya'akod, Gen. 22:9, a word found nowhere else in the Bible in the active, conjugative form) on the altar. The angel of the Lord then bids Abraham to stay his hand and a ram is offered in Isaac's stead. The Akedah became in Jewish thought the supreme example of self-sacrifice in obedience to God's will and the symbol of Jewish martyrdom throughout the ages.
[h=3]Critical View[/h]The Akedah narrative is generally attributed to source E (which uses ʾElohim as the Divine Name) with glosses by the Redactor (R, hence also the use of the Tetragrammaton); or to source J (in which the Divine Name is the Tetragrammaton) which may have made use of E material (Peake's Commentary on the Bible (1962), 193). The original intent of the narrative has been understood by the critics either as an etiological legend explaining why the custom of child sacrifice was modified in a certain sanctuary by the substitution of a ram (Gunkel), or as a protest against human sacrifice (Skinner, Genesis (1910), 331–2). The name Moriah ("land of Moriah," Gen. 22:2) occurs elsewhere (II Chron. 3:1) as the name of the Temple site; hence the Jewish tradition that the Temple was built on the spot at which the Akedah took place. There is no further reference to the Akedah in the Bible.
The Akedah influenced both Christian and Islamic thought. In early Christian doctrine, the sacrifice of Isaac is used as a type for the sacrifice of Jesus (see Tertullian, Adversus Marcionem, 3:18; Clement of Alexandria, Paedogogica, 1:5, 1; Schoeps, in: JBL, 65 (1946), 385–92). In Islam, the Akedah is held up for admiration (Koran 37:97–111), but the more accepted opinion is that it was Ishmael, Abraham's other son and the progenitor of the Arabs, who was bound on the altar and that the whole episode took place before Isaac's birth. The Akedah has been a favorite theme in religious art for centuries.
Akedah
That is why the atheist debate on the ETHIC ISSUE because atheist knows the scriptures better than most Christians. The atheist study the Sacred Word daily because that is atheist strategy because the atheist knows by experience most Christians do not study the history of Jewish faith to get understanding of Christian faith or most Christians do not read the Sacred Word in context.
King James Bible
And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
You are not to make any of your children pass through the fire to Molech. Do not profane the name of your God; I am Yahweh.
Find the following verses interesting: It was a testing of Obedience
[h=1]Genesis 22 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]The Sacrifice of Isaac[/h]22 After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he answered.
8 Abraham answered, “God Himself will provide[b] the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” Then the two of them walked on together.
Hallelujah Hallelujah!!!
12 Then He said, “Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from Me.” 13 Abraham looked up and saw a ram[d] caught in the thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram and offered it as a burnt offering in place of his son. 14 And Abraham named that place The Lord Will Provide,[e] so today it is said: “It will be provided[f] on the Lord’s mountain.”
15 Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn,” this is the Lord’s declaration: “Because you have done this thing and have not withheld your only son,[g] 17 I will indeed bless you and make your offspring as numerous as the stars of the sky and the sand on the seashore. Your offspring will possess the gates of their enemies. 18 And all the nations of the earth will be blessed[h] by your off spring because you have obeyed My command.”
Hallelujah Hallelujah!! I believe Abraham trusted ABBA to provide the lamb because of his obedience to ABBA command.
In the Hebrew tradition this is called, Akedah (the binding) and nissah/test means to prove the quality of not " to entice to do wrong. God used the event to affirm the sterling character of Abraham's faith.
3. Of the highest quality: a person of sterling character.
How many Christians today would be obedient as Abraham to sacrifice your most prize possession that you love so much?
AKEDAH (ʿAqedah; Heb. הָדֵקֲע, lit. "binding (of Isaac)"), the Pentateuchal narrative (Gen. 22:1–19) describing God's command to *Abraham to offer *Isaac, the son of his old age, as a sacrifice. Obedient to the command, Abraham takes Isaac to the place of sacrifice and binds him (va-ya'akod, Gen. 22:9, a word found nowhere else in the Bible in the active, conjugative form) on the altar. The angel of the Lord then bids Abraham to stay his hand and a ram is offered in Isaac's stead. The Akedah became in Jewish thought the supreme example of self-sacrifice in obedience to God's will and the symbol of Jewish martyrdom throughout the ages.
[h=3]Critical View[/h]The Akedah narrative is generally attributed to source E (which uses ʾElohim as the Divine Name) with glosses by the Redactor (R, hence also the use of the Tetragrammaton); or to source J (in which the Divine Name is the Tetragrammaton) which may have made use of E material (Peake's Commentary on the Bible (1962), 193). The original intent of the narrative has been understood by the critics either as an etiological legend explaining why the custom of child sacrifice was modified in a certain sanctuary by the substitution of a ram (Gunkel), or as a protest against human sacrifice (Skinner, Genesis (1910), 331–2). The name Moriah ("land of Moriah," Gen. 22:2) occurs elsewhere (II Chron. 3:1) as the name of the Temple site; hence the Jewish tradition that the Temple was built on the spot at which the Akedah took place. There is no further reference to the Akedah in the Bible.
The Akedah influenced both Christian and Islamic thought. In early Christian doctrine, the sacrifice of Isaac is used as a type for the sacrifice of Jesus (see Tertullian, Adversus Marcionem, 3:18; Clement of Alexandria, Paedogogica, 1:5, 1; Schoeps, in: JBL, 65 (1946), 385–92). In Islam, the Akedah is held up for admiration (Koran 37:97–111), but the more accepted opinion is that it was Ishmael, Abraham's other son and the progenitor of the Arabs, who was bound on the altar and that the whole episode took place before Isaac's birth. The Akedah has been a favorite theme in religious art for centuries.
Akedah
This is hardly a fair comparison because you are not a human life. Strictly from the standpoint of ethics, yes this is ethical, at least in the far east culture of the past because whatever belonged to the master's servant also belongs to the master.
Very good points. So, did God have the right to ask this of Abraham? Did God cross the line here?
Then it would be unethical to challenge the master for doing whatsoever he pleases with what is his own.
Absolutely. That is spot on. Does Issac belong to Abraham or to the Almighty?
Ethics is nothing more than a social construct that allows one to function within the confines of a given society. Ethics is the communally agreed upon set of rules and principles that govern conduct or behavior within a society. This is not the same as morality. A social structure of ethics can be either moral or immoral.
Isaac belongs to both Abraham and God, for God opened Sarah's womb and he is Abraham's seed. Either way, Abraham belongs to God also.
IMO several things need to be considered before the ethical issue(s) can be addressed.
1) God never expected a human sacrifice and none occurred.
2) Abraham was promised that he would have an extensive lineage through Isaac; and Abraham fully expected Isaac to walk down the mountain with him, alive.
3) When Isaac asked where the lamb for the offering was; Abraham correctly responded that :
" God will provide Himself a lamb for the offering" meaning:
God will provide by Himself a lamb: the ram caught in the thicket
God will provide of Himself a lamb: Jesus on the cross
In light of these things we can properly discuss ethical issues; if any remain.
1) God never expected a human sacrifice and none occurred.
2) Abraham was promised that he would have an extensive lineage through Isaac; and Abraham fully expected Isaac to walk down the mountain with him, alive.
3) When Isaac asked where the lamb for the offering was; Abraham correctly responded that :
" God will provide Himself a lamb for the offering" meaning:
God will provide by Himself a lamb: the ram caught in the thicket
God will provide of Himself a lamb: Jesus on the cross
In light of these things we can properly discuss ethical issues; if any remain.
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That would only be from the viewpoint of Abraham if he thought about the ethic,but in reality nothing was going to happen,and nothing did happen.
Abraham went to slay Isaac but was stopped by God,so what is the issue if God was not going to allow it.There is no issue of ethic because God was not going to allow,but only on Abraham's part if he thought it was not ethical.Abraham might not of liked it but if he went through with it and was not stopped Isaac would still be with God.
Maybe Abraham thought God was going to stop him because before he went to sacrifice Isaac he told Isaac God will supply the Lamb.
Abraham went to slay Isaac but was stopped by God,so what is the issue if God was not going to allow it.There is no issue of ethic because God was not going to allow,but only on Abraham's part if he thought it was not ethical.Abraham might not of liked it but if he went through with it and was not stopped Isaac would still be with God.
Maybe Abraham thought God was going to stop him because before he went to sacrifice Isaac he told Isaac God will supply the Lamb.
Here is the second question.
Was Abraham's first obligation to his son or to God? Did Abraham have the right or a moral obligation to refuse such a request? What is this question designed to do?
a. To make us question the validity of and the viability of our faith.
* Should such a request render God suspect?
* Does faith break down in the extreme case? How far will society allow a person to go in the exercise of one's faith?
b. This assumes that Abraham's faith and moral principles stand in contradiction to one another. This act seems irresponsible and this kind of faith is vilified.
Was Abraham's first obligation to his son or to God? Did Abraham have the right or a moral obligation to refuse such a request? What is this question designed to do?
a. To make us question the validity of and the viability of our faith.
* Should such a request render God suspect?
* Does faith break down in the extreme case? How far will society allow a person to go in the exercise of one's faith?
b. This assumes that Abraham's faith and moral principles stand in contradiction to one another. This act seems irresponsible and this kind of faith is vilified.
AQueen chuckles at the question? I will give you a testimony how ABBA commanded me many years of ago on obedience! I was living in Los Angeles in nice area, employment with the state, full scholarship, and living in SIN. Few months prior gave up a job in Ohio making 15 dollars an hour, start my own business and thinking about purchasing a house. Some one from past return stating he wants me and our daughter to be in his life. I gave up everything in Ohio for this man, I pray about the issue once again the heart can mislead a person.
ABBA provided all that I need in Los Angeles. One day ABBA told me I want you give up everything in Los Angeles for ME because you are living in SIN. I was confuse because I gave up everything to relocate to CA. ABBA told me the following: I gave you your heart desire because I heard your pain, agony, crying and prayers. You must obey my command or die here in the wilderness of SIN. This was within 9 month period of leaving Ohio & relocating to CA with my daughter. I said the following to ABBA.
Heavenly Father, you know folks, and family are going to talk about me. The funny part is I flew out to CA on the plane now returning on the Greyhound bus which takes 3 days(humbling experience). It was my choice to obey the command of ABBA. Had to stay in a shelter before I received housing, ABBA restore my job at same company with same paid, housing on the same street before I left(lool). ABBA was taking me back to the beginning of the test! Hallelujah!!!
That was in 1998 since that time ABBA has bless me in many areas of my life because I obeyed HIS command, repented of my SIN and trusted ABBA in all areas of my life.
My daughter is graduating from college on May 9, 2015, ABBA provided scholarships in the amount of 46,000 dollars, lived in beautiful area, nice job, healthy, and faithful to ABBA.
We all go through testing Oldhermit!!! I hope I have answered your question in a unique way because that is my personality.
I belong to ABBA so ABBA can do as HE please because I am HIS disciple!! Read the Sacred Word because all the children of ABBA went through testing beginning with Adam & Eve. The Covenant of Obedience is important!!
Nice try with the trick question!
None of these are trick questions. They are only designed to make you think. The question is this, did God have the right to demand this of Abraham or is this a violation of ethics?