Abuse and the Chruch

[Misty77]

Crazy thing is he wasn't wrong in the quoted comment unless is some underlying assumption is that comment....*shrugs*

The antecedent of "these" was in reference to the laws that were being misapplied to abuse RedTent's relatives. Just about anything without understand the full context can sound accurate.

And I was responding to his general comments which stubbornly adhered to a single side of a multifaceted issue.

 

[tucksma]

Miss, I mean no disrespect and if I come off disrespectful I am sorry. You say I have no knowledge of marriage, womanhood, abuse, etc. I have more than you know because my mom was abused, my mom is very big on womanhood (bigger than most!), and got a divorce recently. I have and will openly tell her I respectfully disagree with what she has done because the abuse was very material and not physical or verbal. She also now agrees with me that according to scripture that women shouldn't speak in the church. She thinks that is God's will in a perfect world. I do not mean disrespect, but divorce is something a know alot about, asked MANY people of my faith, and other faiths, on their take, and have looked at scripture. Divorce is never "ok" but is needed at times. I'm sorry if I come off as rude to you, again do not mean to be so, but do not belittle me because you think you know my "frame of reference".

 

[Misty77]

Before I say anything, I was wondering if this thread was a purely subjective (from a woman's point of view) posting, where we should only see abuse happening from the eyes of a woman, or is this a post to truly reach the heart of the matter of abuse?

The heart of the matter of abuse is always comes down to control for whatever reason and is addressed in the link. The topic of the thread (which I admittedly poorly follow) is how the church in general has a tendency of mishandling the issue of abuse.

 

[tucksma]

But if we make laws out of how we should live, then that is what we have done, made more laws.

Get it?

Making a law of women being submissive to the man would be me saying "ok so the women has to do xyz to be submissive and if she doesn't she'll be punished in xyz way". We are not doing that. The laws had physical punishments, and no one will physically punish you if you are not submissive. If the bible says "be submissive" do it.

Get it?

 

[Misty77]

Miss, I mean no disrespect and if I come off disrespectful I am sorry. You say I have no knowledge of marriage, womanhood, abuse, etc. I have more than you know because my mom was abused, my mom is very big on womanhood (bigger than most!), and got a divorce recently. I have and will openly tell her I respectfully disagree with what she has done because the abuse was very material and not physical or verbal. She also now agrees with me that according to scripture that women shouldn't speak in the church. She thinks that is God's will in a perfect world. I do not mean disrespect, but divorce is something a know alot about, asked MANY people of my faith, and other faiths, on their take, and have looked at scripture. Divorce is never "ok" but is needed at times. I'm sorry if I come off as rude to you, again do not mean to be so, but do not belittle me because you think you know my "frame of reference".

I apologize if I was presumptuous in my remarks. Even so, there are depths of understanding that only come when you have walked certain paths, not just witnessed them.

 

[Misty77]

Making a law of women being submissive to the man would be me saying "ok so the women has to do xyz to be submissive and if she doesn't she'll be punished in xyz way". We are not doing that. The laws had physical punishments, and no one will physically punish you if you are not submissive. If the bible says "be submissive" do it.

Get it?

And therein lies the problem. Abusers WILL punish their victims for insubordination, either real or perceived.

 

[tucksma]

But God's word doesn't change based on your experience.

 

[tucksma]

And therein lies the problem. Abusers WILL punish their victims for insubordination, either real or perceived.

I was hoping you weren't going to do that because I meant like a law system not an abuser. An abuser would be in a sense "breaking the law" too. Divorce is wrong, abuse is wrong. They are both wrong.

 

[Stephen63]

This doesn't help my argument, but it came to mind with discussion. =)
[video=youtube;yHGPmbu3QNk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHGPmbu3QNk[/video]

I read the thread completely thru & was in some agreement until I got here. After this, even with whatever personal experience you may have, you totally lost my support. Something as sensitive & delicate as spouse abuse should NEVER be mixed with worldly themes promoting vengence. Vengence is & has always been the Lord's. There is indeed a time for all things as Solomon said, but that is only in the context of God's will. That judgement call is His, not ours.

 

[Misty77]

I was hoping you weren't going to do that because I meant like a law system not an abuser. An abuser would be in a sense "breaking the law" too. Divorce is wrong, abuse is wrong. They are both wrong.

So if a person has a choice between abuse and divorce, what would you say?

Abuse is ALWAYS wrong. Abandoning a marriage is wrong. Leaving an evil person is righteous. Sometimes DIVORCE IS THE RIGHT CHOICE IN A BAD SITUATION.

 

[Misty77]

I read the thread completely thru & was in some agreement until I got here. After this, even with whatever personal experience you may have, you totally lost my support. Something as sensitive & delicate as spouse abuse should NEVER be mixed with worldly themes promoting vengence. Vengence is & has always been the Lord's. There is indeed a time for all things as Solomon said, but that is only in the context of God's will. That judgement call is His, not ours.

It was an attempt at levity. I have a macabre sense of humor and would never actually condone violence.

 

[tucksma]

So if a person has a choice between abuse and divorce, what would you say?

Abuse is ALWAYS wrong. Abandoning a marriage is wrong. Leaving an evil person is righteous. Sometimes DIVORCE IS THE RIGHT CHOICE IN A BAD SITUATION.

Depends on the abuse really, like I said it is very situationial. Also I am not Jesus, and will not be your judge, so I can't say what is or isn't "needed". I would never say divorce is the "right" choice, just needed in certain bad situations.

 

[jahsoul]

The heart of the matter of abuse is always comes down to control for whatever reason and is addressed in the link. The topic of the thread (which I admittedly poorly follow) is how the church in general has a tendency of mishandling the issue of abuse.

OK. Just wanted to be sure because I know that abuse goes both ways, like all things, so I didn't want to play into a one way street type of situation.

But I agree that abuse comes down to control and over stepping off boundaries. Submission from our wives is never forced just like our submission to God but we have to understand that both is needed. This can take a whole lot of turns, like can a husband who abuse his authority or a wife that refuses to submit be of God? But I'm not going to crack open that can...lol.

 

[RedTent]

Or another way of putting it: "but is kept submissive with laws."

I spent months devoted to studying God's laws, what a freeing gratifying month! So I am sorry I said "kept submissive by scripture". She is kept submissive by a stubborn refusal to learn from the laws given in scripture! He is giving her one scripture to go by, to be submissive, and ignoring the entire law of the Lord.

 

[tripsin]

Re: Abuse and the Church

But God's word doesn't change based on your experience.

O.K. let's try this angle: "This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church." Eph. 5:22-33. Christ is the head and the church is the body. Christ loves the church. Review history and tell me if you think the church has been submissive? Yet, Christ still loves the church; I don't see that He lords it over her. "The church" is still a mess.

There is no 'law' that He has laid down for her. He is just waiting. Watching her. Wooing her. He is a lover not a tyrant overlord.

Did you ever read the Song of Solomon? It's about Christ and the church.

 

[tripsin]

I spent months devoted to studying God's laws, what a freeing gratifying month! So I am sorry I said "kept submissive by scripture". She is kept submissive by a stubborn refusal to learn from the laws given in scripture! He is giving her one scripture to go by, to be submissive, and ignoring the entire law of the Lord.

"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal. 5.

 

[tucksma]

I agree that Jesus loves the church even though it is a mess, it doesn't mean the church should be a mess though!

A women should be submissive to a man, but the man (who should be representing christ) should forgive the women if she isn't being submissive. It's not a law in the idea of if it doesn't happen punishment will follow, but it is a way to live. The "goal" is to be sinless, but Jesus forgives us when we fail
The goal for a wife should be to be submissive, but the husband should forgive her if she isn't. It doesn't grant her to be not submissive though.

 

[Angela53510]

I believe spousal abuse is rampant in conservative churches! I have worked with an abuse group, and the majority of women who seek help are Christian women. I believe this is because of the resurgence of patriarchal dominance, which is not only out of place in our culture, but based on the worst Biblical exegetical of 2 verses!

i have argued again and again that Gal. 3:28 should be the Biblical start of relationships. Headship is taken out of context of a passage in Ephesians 5 which is written about the headship of Christ, and the startling instructions in Greek and Roman cultures for a husband to love his wife. This was radical in the 1st century, and it seems to be radical in conservative churches.

I was reading a book today called, "I am Malala." It is about the 12 year old girl in Pakistan who this book was shot in the face by the Taliban for wanting to go to school. Her father was a teacher and encouraged her to learn. But the conservative Muslims, who interpreted the Qur'an to mean only men were worthwhile, began to push their way into the towns and villages esp. after 9/11 and enforce their brand of patriarchy, that women and girls were less than men.

This book reminds me so much of what I see happening in Christian churches today it both scared and outraged me!!! We are all God's children and Christ is our head. Only Christ has been given all authority, and we need to obey God rather then men. Too many women have been forced to squander God's gifts, because of arrogant and haughty men, who want women barefoot and pregnant, just like the Taliban.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely! This is why abuse is rampant in the church. Men that have claimed this so-called "headship" have become "heady" with power. They are corrupting the very foundation of living together as children of the King.

As as for divorce, no woman has to live in fear of mental or physical abuse. I dare any man to live in a house with a bigger, stronger and more dominate person and stay when the abuse occurs regularly. Women need to leave such abusers, and have a restored life, free of the terror of abuse!

And our churches need to be leaders, rather than hiding behind the double screens of male hierarchy and the lie that "God hates divorce." No, God hates abusive husbands, and they will be judged for it one day, and the churches and pastors who allowed it to continue in their flocks will also be held accountable!

(P.S. I would be happy to go over the Greek, history and culture of the Ephesians and Corinthians one more time for the newcomers!)

 

[tripsin]

A women should be submissive to a man, but the man (who should be representing christ) should forgive the women if she isn't being submissive.

Should the woman forgive the man if he isn't loving her?

It's not a law in the idea of if it doesn't happen punishment will follow, but it is a way to live. The "goal" is to be sinless, but Jesus forgives us when we fail.

The 'goal' is to express the nature of God instead of expressing our own which nature is a fallen one.

The goal for a wife should be to be submissive, but the husband should forgive her if she isn't. It doesn't grant her to be not submissive though.

The whole issue is, actually, mutual respect. But too many men read the verses and think that the wife has to 'mind' them as if they were a little kid. If they think that, then they are not respecting her. Of course there are women who are head strong and do not respect their husband's wishes. Rebellion on the woman's part; abuse on the man's part, neither are good for the marriage.

 

[RedTent]

"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal. 5.

Oh Tripsin, to say that knowing we can go to Christ for forgiveness, to know how Christ was planned from the beginning, to know what Christ did for us, is to say that learning about the "law" or how God shows us to achieve the best for us, if only "justified by law" is taking beauty and only seeing dross!! Knowing Christ, worshiping our Savior, going to Christ for forgiveness, does not mean we must not know all of the principles that God gives us in law!! When you wipe all that out with your "justified by law" idea, you are missing so much of Christ. Of COURSE we are not justified by law, that is a man idea and not ever in scripture.