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E
Well I do know what Paul said. Abraham BELIEVED and because of it he was saved. No mention of water.
Also. Water baptism was only for a gentile and priest. A gentile had to be baptized to participate in jewish law. A preist was baptized at his annointing. No jew was baptised. So I guess no one else was saved?
John 3. Water = flesh. = physical birth/. Again twisting things to make ones false belief a reality.
Did Jesus tell nicodemus that God gave his son to the world so that whoever believes and is baptised will have eternal life? Why, if baptism is so important to eternity, did Jesus leave it out and just mention belief (faith)
And why would you want to work to earn a gift?
Also. Water baptism was only for a gentile and priest. A gentile had to be baptized to participate in jewish law. A preist was baptized at his annointing. No jew was baptised. So I guess no one else was saved?
John 3. Water = flesh. = physical birth/. Again twisting things to make ones false belief a reality.
Did Jesus tell nicodemus that God gave his son to the world so that whoever believes and is baptised will have eternal life? Why, if baptism is so important to eternity, did Jesus leave it out and just mention belief (faith)
And why would you want to work to earn a gift?
L
If they would have eaten from the tree of life in a fallen state then there could be no hope of salvation they would forever remain in a fallen state. Also the Lamb did not forgive their sins but it pointed to the Lamb of God.
Hebrews 10:4
(4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
John 1:29
(29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Hebrews 10:4
(4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
John 1:29
(29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Yes CJ he was baptized. That man hung on the cross and he had no idea that it was Jesus Christ (the Messiah) that hung there with him. Then GOD baptized that man with the TRUTH! First of all the man FEARED God not death but the condemnation! Luke 23:40. And then God had compassion for the man becasue he rebuked the other with these words and right there the man REPENTED and confessed his sins!.. Saying... We hang here condemned, and justifiably so, we recieve what we deserve from our deeds, but not this MAN! And he admitted Jesus to be the MESSIAH. and he asked Jesus to remember him when He comes to His Kingdom. And then? The man recieved the baptism of GOD! Jesus said that no man will enter into the Kingdom of God if he was not born of the Spirit, joh 3:5. Also we know that no man can say Jesus is the Messiah unless it is the Holy Spirit that confess with him. And no man knows the things of God but the SPIRIT.
The fact that the man on the cross knew JEsus was innocent, and that He was going to HIS KINGDOM, was given to that man by the Holy Spirit. And the only way that man had the Holy Spriit was that God BAPTIZED him with the Holy Ghost. The truth and the knowledge thereof came by God's Spirit in that man! Right there on the cross, the man was Baptized with the Holy Spirit! 1 Cor 2:11.
Jesus answered... YOU WILL BE WITH ME...
The fact that the man on the cross knew JEsus was innocent, and that He was going to HIS KINGDOM, was given to that man by the Holy Spirit. And the only way that man had the Holy Spriit was that God BAPTIZED him with the Holy Ghost. The truth and the knowledge thereof came by God's Spirit in that man! Right there on the cross, the man was Baptized with the Holy Spirit! 1 Cor 2:11.
Jesus answered... YOU WILL BE WITH ME...
Also the Bible says that Adam & Eve were clothed with coats of skins from God, those coats came from the lamb that they sacrificed, 'the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth' to teach the Christ who would die in their place so it was God who taught the gospel before anyone
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Laodicea....This is the statement that I was reffering to, Where does it say "They" Adam and Eve sacrificed the Lamb?
If these coats of skin was the Lamb, as you say here, ... It would have been The Lamb's Righteousness, and they would'nt have
had to be put out of the Garden. Right?
No doubt it was a foreshadow of things to come, I'm just saying I don't think it happened here, ..yet.
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Laodicea....This is the statement that I was reffering to, Where does it say "They" Adam and Eve sacrificed the Lamb?
If these coats of skin was the Lamb, as you say here, ... It would have been The Lamb's Righteousness, and they would'nt have
had to be put out of the Garden. Right?
No doubt it was a foreshadow of things to come, I'm just saying I don't think it happened here, ..yet.
L
Genesis 4:4
(4) And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Where did Abel get the idea from to sacrifice a lamb? Where did God get the coats of skins if they did not sacrifice a Lamb?
Revelation 13:8
(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(4) And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Where did Abel get the idea from to sacrifice a lamb? Where did God get the coats of skins if they did not sacrifice a Lamb?
Revelation 13:8
(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
F
We have no way knowing if the thief on the cross was baptized. Maybe he was or maybe not, do you want to place your salvation on this question?
We do know that those in Acts 2:38 were baptized in order to be saved from their sins.
We do know the Lord said in Mrk 16:16, "he that believes and is baptized will be saved."
We do know that Paul was told to "arise and be baptized, and was away thy sins" - Acts 22:16.
Is this not enough to understand what we must do?
The thief on the cross, was under the Law of Moses.
You are under the New Covenant which commands and gives us examples of what we must do.
F
Lets start from the top "Abraham BELIEVED and because of it he was saved. No mention of water. ----First there needs to be no mention of water seeing Abraham was under a different law system entirely. There is also no mention of him keeping the passover either, because it was not given yet. We are under the New Testament not the old - Col 2:14, he nailed it to the His cross, that includes the patriarchal Laws as well in which Abraham was under.
Concening Abraham's belief - You seem to not understand what the Bible defines as Belief.
It is not simply believing in the existance of something or someone, i.e like believing in Santa.
Our belief is seen through our obedience to God's word. If we do not obey we are the same as unbelievers - Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
You see this servant who decided to live a life of sin received the same fate upon his Lord's return as the unbelievers.
Abraham's faith (belief) caused him to obey:
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
If Abrham would not have obeyed (performed obedient works) his belief would not have counted as anything, neither will yours.
Jesus did not say " that God gave his son to the world so that whoever believes and is baptised will have eternal life" He did not need to, He already covered that when he said we must be born of water and of spirit, and also in Mrk 16:16 it is stated almost exactly like that.
if you truly beleive then you will be baptized, this does not nullify the grace of God, it answers it with obedience - Jn 14:15 - 'if you love keep my commands"
you asked: "And why would you want to work to earn a gift?"
This kind of reasoning is foolish. You are not earning a gift by obeying, we cannot in no way earn God's grace - Eph 2:
God has given us grace yet we do not deserve it, (thats why its grace). But in no way does this take away our commandment to obey his every word.
Lets use your kind of reasoning with Noah.
Now what if Noah answered God's waring with your kind of reasoning.
God - "build thee an ark"
Noah - "No Lord because i have found grace in your eyes, that would be working and I can not earn my salvation, I cannot work for my gift. You build the Ark and place me in it, then that will be grace."
What do you think would have happened to Noah?
You should know:
Noah was saved because: - Gen 6:22 "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he."
This goes right along with - Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Concening Abraham's belief - You seem to not understand what the Bible defines as Belief.
It is not simply believing in the existance of something or someone, i.e like believing in Santa.
Our belief is seen through our obedience to God's word. If we do not obey we are the same as unbelievers - Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
You see this servant who decided to live a life of sin received the same fate upon his Lord's return as the unbelievers.
Abraham's faith (belief) caused him to obey:
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
If Abrham would not have obeyed (performed obedient works) his belief would not have counted as anything, neither will yours.
Jesus did not say " that God gave his son to the world so that whoever believes and is baptised will have eternal life" He did not need to, He already covered that when he said we must be born of water and of spirit, and also in Mrk 16:16 it is stated almost exactly like that.
if you truly beleive then you will be baptized, this does not nullify the grace of God, it answers it with obedience - Jn 14:15 - 'if you love keep my commands"
you asked: "And why would you want to work to earn a gift?"
This kind of reasoning is foolish. You are not earning a gift by obeying, we cannot in no way earn God's grace - Eph 2:
God has given us grace yet we do not deserve it, (thats why its grace). But in no way does this take away our commandment to obey his every word.
Lets use your kind of reasoning with Noah.
- Noah found grace - Gen 6:8.
- God's grace warned Noah of the coming destruction - Gen 6:13.
- God's grace to Noah what he needed to do - "build thee an ark" - Gen 6:14
Now what if Noah answered God's waring with your kind of reasoning.
God - "build thee an ark"
Noah - "No Lord because i have found grace in your eyes, that would be working and I can not earn my salvation, I cannot work for my gift. You build the Ark and place me in it, then that will be grace."
What do you think would have happened to Noah?
You should know:
- God's grace has warned you - II Pet 3:10
- God's grace has told you what you need to do - Rom 8:1 - (be in Christ)
- Gods' grace has told you how to do so - Gal 3:27 (..as many of us as are baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (this is how we get in the ark)
Noah was saved because: - Gen 6:22 "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he."
This goes right along with - Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
E
Ok. Lets start here/ Tell me. What part of the law saved anyone? Does not the book hebrews say the law never saved anyone, Does not scripture say the law was a tutor to bring us (the world) to Christ?
As Scripture says, Even demons believe, yet tremble. Your right. It is called faith. mere belief does not mean anything.
ps. Instead of telling someone they don't understand something, You should ask them.
Faith produces salvation. Which produce works. Without the HS to guide us, Our works are as filthy rags, Paul makes it clear in Eph 2: 8-9 that we are saved by faith apart from works. He then tells us in vs 10 that those who are saved, are brought back to a relationship with God so that they are able to produce good works.
See the picture?
Faith = salvation = ability to do good works.
Yes. And his works proved he had a real faith and not a false faith. He was not saved by his work. His work proved his faith was real and not dead
Ah but you missed the most important aspect of James.
James 2:17–20 (NKJV)
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Do you understand what a dead faith is? Does something that is dead have life? James is claiming a fact. mere belief does not mean anything. Faith is needed to be saved, And true faith will produce works. If one is a hearer not a doer of the word (Also in james) he might have a belief. But as James said, even demons believe. But his lack of work proves he had no faith.
Paul said we are saved by faith. If one does not have faith are they saved? No. So how can we know one has faith and not a mere belief? They will produce works.
Abraham had a true faith. Thus he had works. His works proved his faith was real. and because of it his faith was accounted for righteousness.
Remember what Paul said. You all seem to love James, but you forget what Paul said.
Romans 4 : 1 - 8 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
And we can't use the excuse Paul was meaning only works of the law. there was no law yet. so we can't try to implant that into this verse. paul even explains that as he continues in chapter 4.
1. Your assuming nicodemous would have thought baptism when Jesus said water. Water baptism had not even been instituted yet. so your assumptions are off base.
2. Nicodemous asked if he should enter his mothers womb again. Jesus explains that which is born of flesh (water) is flesh. that which is born of spirit is spirit. Jesus was explaining the two births. water and spirit.
3. Mark 16: 16 is not in most ancient manuscripts. I said this before. Now I will say it again. Are you willing to eat poison and or get bit by a poisonous snake to see if Mark 16: 16 - 18 is correct? Because according it. the sign of all who believe is that they will do these things and not die.
4. Even if we would assumne it is scripture. Look at the opposite. Who is condemned? Those who do not believe. What about those who believe and are not baptised? According to mark 16: 16 they would still be saved. because not being baptised is NOT a mention of being condemned.
5. Mark 1: 15. John the baptist said repent and believe in the gospel (faith)
6. John 1: 12. To be a children of God. all it takes is belief
7. John 3: 18. 36 Whoever believes is NOT CONDEMNED. Whoever does not believe is condemned.
8. John 6. Whoever believes will have eternal life. Never hunger, never thirst, never die, live forever, and be assured of being ressurected on the last day.
9. John 5: 24. Whoever believes in the words shall have everlasting life, and has passed from judgment, and passed to life (born again) no mention of water here
10. John 7: 38, He who believes out of his heart will flow rivers of libing water (Holy Spirit)'
11. John 8: 24. You will die in your sin if you do not believe, no baptism
12. John 10: 25. Whoever believes in Christ, although his flesh will die, he will live
Funny, All thes examples of belief only. And not one mention of baptism, except in mark 16, which is a questionable passage. Sorry I chose to trust all the other passages, Not the one.
Amen, But I am not saved because I was baptised. I am baptised because I was saved. If I am not saved, All I did was get wet.
Ah, But baptism is a work of righteousness. Which is obeying a command of God. SO if your saying baptism is a requirement, you are working for a gift. Paul said in titus 3 that not by any work of righteousness we have done ( including baptism) but by the HS through faith we are washed and regenerated (born again)
Never claimed it did. He also commands us to assemble ourselves together. Pray without ceasing. Take the lords supper. Feed the poor. Evengelise the lost etc etc. These are all God woorks which God told us to do. But none of them will have anything to do with our salvation. We do them because we are saved, or they are of no use, if we are doing them to recieve Gods gift. we are trying to earn reward. Not recieve a gift. we are working for it.
Noah doing the work saved his physical life. We can not use this to speak of eternal things. Noah was saved just as abraham was (eternally) He believed god and it was accounted to him for righteousness. He also happened to save his life because he did the work. Like we all should do.
Sorry but your reasonings are flawed. We work because we are saved, Not to get saved.
Paul said if it is grace, it is no longer works. otherwise grace is no longer grace. If we are saved by grace, it must be minus any work period. or as Paul said. we collect a debt, not grace. what is our debt? Pefection. And we are guilty of not paying this debt, so all our works will not be enough to pay our debt.
Also remember, The penalty of sin is death. Not being baptised. Not anything else. DEATH/. Only death can remove the debt of sin.
E
Kinda hard to be baptised when your hanging on a cross isn't it?
Not true. Peter only commanded those who repented to be baptised. not to get saverd, but because they had remmision of sin. Much like John the baptist refused to baptise anyone who could not prove they already had remmision of sin. Read my above comment, I explained this in detail.
again, read above
Yet peter witness many gentiles get saved before they were baptised. and paul said he was not sent to baptise, but preach the gospel. separating baptism and the gospel. why is this?
SHow me one person who was saved under the law? Hebrews would be a good start to find out who was saved under the law.
ps. I used to believe this also.
F
Ok. Lets start here/ Tell me. What part of the law saved anyone? Does not the book hebrews say the law never saved anyone, Does not scripture say the law was a tutor to bring us (the world) to Christ?
The part of the Law the saved them, was them doing their part while they were under the Law.
They had a law to obey, if they did not obey it they were not saved.
It is true that no one was saved until Christ shed His blood at the cross. His blood flows backward and forward. Those under the Law who decided not to obey, and turn to sin, perished. Yes the Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, as the law foreshadowed the new covenant.
Yet a major flaw in many people interpretation are getting the "works" under the Law of Moses confused with "works" under the gospel. The law of Moses is gone, it's works mean nothing, however, the works under the New Testament mean much.
As Scripture says, Even demons believe, yet tremble. Your right. It is called faith. mere belief does not mean anything.
Then if I choose to believe and yet live a life of sin will I still be saved by my belief in God?
ps. Instead of telling someone they don't understand something, You should ask them.
Sorry.
Faith produces salvation. Which produce works. Without the HS to guide us, Our works are as filthy rags, Paul makes it clear in Eph 2: 8-9 that we are saved by faith apart from works. He then tells us in vs 10 that those who are saved, are brought back to a relationship with God so that they are able to produce good works
See the picture?
Faith = salvation = ability to do good works.
Yes I see your Picture, yet it is wrong (no offense).
You have missed the point of the entire chapter of Eph 2:
Paul is not discussing works of obedience but meritorious works.
Notice the context:
If that was so, we could boast, that because of our righteousness God sent His son. This would not agree with what he said in verse 4, we are saved because God loved us who is rich in Mercy.
This is concerning meritorious works, not works of obedience. If we choose not to obey then we forfeit God's grace. Baptism like faith, confession, and repentance are all works of obedience that must be carried out in order for an individual to be saved. In fact even believing is a work that must be done on our part, would you say that one could be saved without belief?
[/color][/color]Yes. And his works proved he had a real faith and not a false faith. He was not saved by his work. His work proved his faith was real and not dead[/b]
Ok you just said "his works proved he had a real faith.." Yet what if he did not perform his works?
Without his works according to what your saying he would have had dead faith.
So how could he be only saved by faith? It seems to me his works played a very important role in his justification.
Ah but you missed the most important aspect of James.
[/color][/size] James 2:17–20 (NKJV)
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
according to these passages:
When was Abraham "justified"?
When was his faith made "perfect" (or complete, whole, mature)?
When was "righteousness imputed"?
Could he have been saved without being justified, righteous, and complete in faith? "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" I ask you same.
When we believe we must obey before we can be righteous.
The unrighteous will not be saved.
Abraham had a true faith. Thus he had works. His works proved his faith was real. and because of it his faith was accounted for righteousness.
Questions for you?
How do we obtain righteousness?
Must we be "righteous" to go to heaven?
Remember what Paul said. You all seem to love James, but you forget what Paul said.
Romans 4 : 1 - 8 "
And we can't use the excuse Paul was meaning only works of the law. there was no law yet. so we can't try to implant that into this verse. paul even explains that as he continues in chapter 4.
Please read carefully:
when I read your statement above all i could think is wow. what do you mean "we cant use the excuse Paul was meaning only works of the law"? Are you serious? That is not an excuse because that is exactly what he is speaking about in these chapters and in most of the book of Romans.
Chapter 4 is a continuation of chapter 3 concerning the works of the law of Moses.
The fact that there was no Law of Moses is exactly Paul's point concerning Abraham.
Paul is showing them that if we were only saved by the Law of Moses, how could Abraham be saved because he was not circumcised at time when the "blessing of having his sins forgiven was granted to him from God.
Dont forget these passages:
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that
WHEN WAS FAITH REKONED TO ABRAHAM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS?
1. Your assuming nicodemous would have thought baptism when Jesus said water. Water baptism had not even been instituted yet. so your assumptions are off base.
2. Nicodemous asked if he should enter his mothers womb again. Jesus explains that which is born of flesh (water) is flesh. that which is born of spirit is spirit. Jesus was explaining the two births. water and spirit.
3. Mark 16: 16 is not in most ancient manuscripts. I said this before. Now I will say it again. Are you willing to eat poison and or get bit by a poisonous snake to see if Mark 16: 16 - 18 is correct? Because according it. the sign of all who believe is that they will do these things and not die.
4. Even if we would assumne it is scripture. Look at the opposite. Who is condemned? Those who do not believe. What about those who believe and are not baptised? According to mark 16: 16 they would still be saved. because not being baptised is NOT a mention of being condemned.
5. Mark 1: 15. John the baptist said repent and believe in the gospel (faith)
6. John 1: 12. To be a children of God. all it takes is belief
Ah, But baptism is a work of righteousness. Which is obeying a command of God. SO if your saying baptism is a requirement, you are working for a gift. Paul said in titus 3 that not by any work of righteousness we have done ( including baptism) but by the HS through faith we are washed and regenerated (born again)
Never claimed it did. He also commands us to assemble ourselves together. Pray without ceasing. Take the lords supper. Feed the poor. Evengelise the lost etc etc. These are all God woorks which God told us to do. But none of them will have anything to do with our salvation. We do them because we are saved, or they are of no use, if we are doing them to recieve Gods gift. we are trying to earn reward. Not recieve a gift. we are working for it.
still you are missing the point, We must:
Hear the gospel: - Rom 10:17
We must believe - Jn 3:16
We must repent - Acts 2:38, II Cor 7:10
We must confess - Rom 10:9
We must be Baptized - Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom 6:1-f. I Pet 3:21
The rest of the works you cited above, are workes after one is a Christian, and all these are essential in becoming such.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
The part of the Law the saved them, was them doing their part while they were under the Law.
They had a law to obey, if they did not obey it they were not saved.
It is true that no one was saved until Christ shed His blood at the cross. His blood flows backward and forward. Those under the Law who decided not to obey, and turn to sin, perished. Yes the Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, as the law foreshadowed the new covenant.
Yet a major flaw in many people interpretation are getting the "works" under the Law of Moses confused with "works" under the gospel. The law of Moses is gone, it's works mean nothing, however, the works under the New Testament mean much.
As Scripture says, Even demons believe, yet tremble. Your right. It is called faith. mere belief does not mean anything.
Then if I choose to believe and yet live a life of sin will I still be saved by my belief in God?
ps. Instead of telling someone they don't understand something, You should ask them.
Sorry.
Faith produces salvation. Which produce works. Without the HS to guide us, Our works are as filthy rags, Paul makes it clear in Eph 2: 8-9 that we are saved by faith apart from works. He then tells us in vs 10 that those who are saved, are brought back to a relationship with God so that they are able to produce good works
See the picture?
Faith = salvation = ability to do good works.
Yes I see your Picture, yet it is wrong (no offense).
You have missed the point of the entire chapter of Eph 2:
Paul is not discussing works of obedience but meritorious works.
Notice the context:
- He begins in Verse 1 showing them that they were not deserving of His grace.
- Eph 2:1, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"
- Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
- They were dead in sin, yet God saved them because of His mercy and love.
- This is His grace - giving us what we do not deserve - Christ, heaven,Eternal life, etc.
- Then He says, Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." - vs 10 shows that we are to maintain Good works.
- NOne of these Passages tell us we are saved witout works of obediece.
If that was so, we could boast, that because of our righteousness God sent His son. This would not agree with what he said in verse 4, we are saved because God loved us who is rich in Mercy.
This is concerning meritorious works, not works of obedience. If we choose not to obey then we forfeit God's grace. Baptism like faith, confession, and repentance are all works of obedience that must be carried out in order for an individual to be saved. In fact even believing is a work that must be done on our part, would you say that one could be saved without belief?
[/color][/color]Yes. And his works proved he had a real faith and not a false faith. He was not saved by his work. His work proved his faith was real and not dead[/b]
Ok you just said "his works proved he had a real faith.." Yet what if he did not perform his works?
Without his works according to what your saying he would have had dead faith.
So how could he be only saved by faith? It seems to me his works played a very important role in his justification.
Ah but you missed the most important aspect of James.
[/color][/size] James 2:17–20 (NKJV)
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
according to these passages:
When was Abraham "justified"?
When was his faith made "perfect" (or complete, whole, mature)?
When was "righteousness imputed"?
Could he have been saved without being justified, righteous, and complete in faith? "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" I ask you same.
When we believe we must obey before we can be righteous.
The unrighteous will not be saved.
Abraham had a true faith. Thus he had works. His works proved his faith was real. and because of it his faith was accounted for righteousness.
Questions for you?
How do we obtain righteousness?
Must we be "righteous" to go to heaven?
Remember what Paul said. You all seem to love James, but you forget what Paul said.
Romans 4 : 1 - 8 "
And we can't use the excuse Paul was meaning only works of the law. there was no law yet. so we can't try to implant that into this verse. paul even explains that as he continues in chapter 4.
Please read carefully:
when I read your statement above all i could think is wow. what do you mean "we cant use the excuse Paul was meaning only works of the law"? Are you serious? That is not an excuse because that is exactly what he is speaking about in these chapters and in most of the book of Romans.
Chapter 4 is a continuation of chapter 3 concerning the works of the law of Moses.
The fact that there was no Law of Moses is exactly Paul's point concerning Abraham.
Paul is showing them that if we were only saved by the Law of Moses, how could Abraham be saved because he was not circumcised at time when the "blessing of having his sins forgiven was granted to him from God.
Dont forget these passages:
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that
WHEN WAS FAITH REKONED TO ABRAHAM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS?
- when he was uncircumcised,
- The point is, these chapters are speaking nothing about works of obedience under the New Testament.
- You are taking those passages so far out of context they have disappeared from my Bible.
1. Your assuming nicodemous would have thought baptism when Jesus said water. Water baptism had not even been instituted yet. so your assumptions are off base.
- First of all I never assumed Nicodemus thought anything concerning baptism. Just because born of water means baptism, that does not mean Nicodemus fully understood that yet.
- Where do read that water baptism was not yet instituted yet.
- What do you think John was doing baptizing in Aneon where there "was much water." - Jn 3:23
2. Nicodemous asked if he should enter his mothers womb again. Jesus explains that which is born of flesh (water) is flesh. that which is born of spirit is spirit. Jesus was explaining the two births. water and spirit.
- Wrong. You cannot just stick "water" in the meaning of born of "flesh" just because it is mentioned in the proceeding passages.
- When Nicodemous asked if he could "enter into his mothers womb" That which is born of the flesh answered that question.
- When he said be born of "water" he not saying, "you must first exist" and then be born of the spirit.
- That wold be like me telling someone wanting to know how to get to my house, "first you must be born into the world, and then take hwy 635"
3. Mark 16: 16 is not in most ancient manuscripts. I said this before. Now I will say it again. Are you willing to eat poison and or get bit by a poisonous snake to see if Mark 16: 16 - 18 is correct? Because according it. the sign of all who believe is that they will do these things and not die.
- No point in defending this passage if dont feel it is inspired.
- The fact is, there are plenty of other passages that support it.
- So we can leave this one out of discussion.
4. Even if we would assumne it is scripture. Look at the opposite. Who is condemned? Those who do not believe. What about those who believe and are not baptised? According to mark 16: 16 they would still be saved. because not being baptised is NOT a mention of being condemned.
- Ok, why would he need to say "he that does not believe and is not baptized"
- Think about it, "He who sees poorly and buys glasses will see better, but he who cannot see at all and does not by glasses is blind.
- Obliviously the phrase "and does not buy glasses" in not needed and the not buying of glasses would not change the fact that he is blind.
- Just the same, a non-believer who is baptized or not baptized is condemned because he does not believe.
5. Mark 1: 15. John the baptist said repent and believe in the gospel (faith)
- Yes if you do not believe the gospel how can you follow the other steps for salvation?
- Those in acts 2:38 had to believe before they could truly repent and be baptized.
- Faith comes by hearing the word of God - Rom 10:17
- Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. - Man confesses UNTO salvation, he believes UNTO righteousness.
- UNTO = eis
Thayer Definition:
1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among
Part of Speech: preposition
- You say His belief is his righteousness and "is" his salvation.
- Man believes toward obedience
- Obediece unto righteousness - Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
- Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
- By baptism we are buried with Christ;
- By baptism our old man (the state of the sinner) is gone
- By baptism we are freed from sin - also acts 22:16 "arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins"
- You are saying we can be saved:
- not buried into Christ's death
- NOt walking in newness of life
- Still in the Old man
- Not freed from sin
- Since all thse occur by baptism - you say we an be saved while still in our sins.
6. John 1: 12. To be a children of God. all it takes is belief
- Your method of interpretation is off. You are making the Bible contradict itself.
- Again you need to understand what belief is.
- Belief and obedience go together just as disobedience and unbelief.
- Baptism does not have to be mentioned in every passage concerning salvation.
- we have the whole Bible that is in harmony.
- IT the same that belief is not mentioned in every passage concerning salvation by baptism - II Pet 3:21 "baptism doth also now save us" no mention of belief, but we understand that is a must, why because other passages tell us that it is, just as other passages tell us that we must repent.
- If fact Paul say "repentance is unto salvation" does that mean we do not have to believe, confess?
- NO! we must us the Bible as a whole, not taking one passage, and again, a true believer will obey.
Ah, But baptism is a work of righteousness. Which is obeying a command of God. SO if your saying baptism is a requirement, you are working for a gift. Paul said in titus 3 that not by any work of righteousness we have done ( including baptism) but by the HS through faith we are washed and regenerated (born again)
- Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
- How do you not understand Paul is saying it's not by anything we have done that deserved God to send Christ.
- It is according to HIs mercy - That still does not mean that we do not have to obey.
- The "gift" is the fact you, even though you were once dead in sin, now by the blood of Christ you can have your sins forgiven if you will repent and be baptized "calling upon the name of the Lord."
- That is the gift, you dont deserve it but it is freely given to all that will obey.
Never claimed it did. He also commands us to assemble ourselves together. Pray without ceasing. Take the lords supper. Feed the poor. Evengelise the lost etc etc. These are all God woorks which God told us to do. But none of them will have anything to do with our salvation. We do them because we are saved, or they are of no use, if we are doing them to recieve Gods gift. we are trying to earn reward. Not recieve a gift. we are working for it.
still you are missing the point, We must:
Hear the gospel: - Rom 10:17
We must believe - Jn 3:16
We must repent - Acts 2:38, II Cor 7:10
We must confess - Rom 10:9
We must be Baptized - Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom 6:1-f. I Pet 3:21
The rest of the works you cited above, are workes after one is a Christian, and all these are essential in becoming such.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
- since paul did not mention belief, confession, faith, or baptism in this passage, according to your method of interpretation all we must do is repent, and nothing else?
- We are expected to study the whole Bible, not pick one passage and run with it.
- if you would do so, you would see the Bible does have a plan for salvation.
F
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Kinda hard to be baptised when your hanging on a cross isn't it?[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
· [FONT="]Yes it would be very hard to be baptized while hanging on a cross. [/FONT]
· [FONT="]It would also be pointless after he died on the cross.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]So hmmm, that would leave us with another option, he could have been baptized prior to being hung on the cross.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]But even if he was not (which we have no way of knowing, your assuming) he was still under the old law, Jesus had not died and rose again.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]And by the way this a unique situation, I guess if you are ever hanging on a cross next to Christ, and he tells you, “you will be with me in paradise” then I would say you have no worries.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]But the fact is, that is not you on the cross next to him, and you have been commanded to do what you need to do.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Belive, repent, confess, and be baptized and live faithful unto death – Rev 2:10.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]No all these are not found in one passage, that we we are to study – Acts 17:11, II Tim 2:15.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Not true. Peter only commanded those who repented to be baptised. not to get saverd, but because they had remmision of sin. Much like John the baptist refused to baptise anyone who could not prove they already had remmision of sin. Read my above comment, I explained this in detail.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
· [FONT="]How far will you twist an easy passage to hold to error?[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Im going to go ahead and break down your statement to expose the error of reading into the text.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Quote: Peter only commanded those who repented to be baptised. not to get saverd, but because they had remmision of sin.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?[/FONT]
· [FONT="]They wanted to know what they needed to do to be saved, not because they were saved.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]When they heard Peter’s inspired sermon they were “pricked in their hearts”[/FONT]
· [FONT="]This is “godly sorrow” II Cor 7.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]II Cor 7:9 - Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance:[/FONT]
· [FONT="]2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]In Order to have “godly sorrow” you must already be a believer, otherwise it would not be godly.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Godly sorrow works REPENTENCE, and REPENTENCE works SALVATION[/FONT]
· [FONT="]This is exactly what happened to the Jews in Acts 3:[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]They were pricked in their hearts – Godly sorrow[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]They wanted to know what to do – Repent – turn from their sins of Law and embrasse the New Coventant[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Repentace worked salvation as they were baptized into Christ, and added to the church – Acts 2:47.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Acts 2:38 “repent and be baptized FOR (eis) the remmision of sin.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Not “because of “ as some try to force.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Eis – for, unto toward, all crediable lexicons agree – vines, strongs, Thayer, all crediable Bible translations render “eis” as “for” KJV, NKJV, ASV, ESV.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]They were not saved until they obeyed the gospel.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]That is not done by simply believing.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]That would have been a perfect time to answer – “believe and say the sinners prayer”[/FONT]
· [FONT="]But instead “repent and baptize FOR the remission of Sins.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Yet peter witness many gentiles get saved before they were baptised.[/FONT][FONT="] and paul said he was not sent to baptise, but preach the gospel. separating baptism and the gospel. why is this? [/FONT]
[FONT="]Answer: again, stop taking passages out of their context. If Paul was not sent to Baptise then why did he?[/FONT]
[FONT="]Again lets go to the context: [/FONT]1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. If he was not sent to baptize was he disobeying the Lord’s commands? Of course not. What Paul was saying is that the divisions they were making based upon who baptized them was not a part of the gospel, in which he was sent to preach. As said before without the gospel baptism is pointless. He was condemning their divisions, and in no way does his statement suggest that baptism itself is not a necessity Look at the immediate context of what is being discussed,
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
He is telling them of the unity they are supposed to have in Christ.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
They were making divisions among themselves, like the denominations do today with creed books and founders.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Is Christ divided he asks, no he is not, he then asks were you baptized in the name of Paul? They were not, so they had no reason to differentiate each other because they were all baptized in the name of Christ.
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
So we see Paul did in fact baptize, he was glad he did not baptize the ones disputing.
Again your missing the point and making the Bible seem as it is in contradiction with itself.
In reality it is man and his interpretations that misuses the Bible as you are atempting. If we take one passage and understand it in such a way that it disagrees with other passages, we need to rethink what we have interpreted as the meaning of the passage. I mean instead of running with one passage, why don’t you go read what else Paul said concerning baptism? – Rom 6:1-f, Gal 3:27, Eph 4:4-5 and so much more.
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]SHow me one person who was saved under the law? Hebrews would be a good start to find out who was saved under the law.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] ps. I used to believe this also.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_4:20[/FONT][FONT="] And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_4:26[/FONT][FONT="] And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_4:35[/FONT][FONT="] And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_5:10[/FONT][FONT="] And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_5:13[/FONT][FONT="] And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_6:7[/FONT][FONT="] And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_19:22[/FONT][FONT="] And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Num_15:25[/FONT][FONT="] And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance: [/FONT]
[FONT="]Num_15:28[/FONT][FONT="] And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Are you saying God was lying to them? [/FONT]
[FONT="]What do you mean?[/FONT]
[FONT="]Are saying Abraham, Moses, David all were not saved?[/FONT]
[FONT="]They WERE SAVED BY OBEYING THE LAW BUT NOT UNTIL CHRIST SHED HIS BLOOD:[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]__________________
Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]QUESTION CONCERING ROM 8:1:[/FONT]
[FONT="]HOW DO WE GET INTO CHRIST?????[/FONT]
[FONT="]Kinda hard to be baptised when your hanging on a cross isn't it?[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
· [FONT="]Yes it would be very hard to be baptized while hanging on a cross. [/FONT]
· [FONT="]It would also be pointless after he died on the cross.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]So hmmm, that would leave us with another option, he could have been baptized prior to being hung on the cross.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]But even if he was not (which we have no way of knowing, your assuming) he was still under the old law, Jesus had not died and rose again.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]And by the way this a unique situation, I guess if you are ever hanging on a cross next to Christ, and he tells you, “you will be with me in paradise” then I would say you have no worries.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]But the fact is, that is not you on the cross next to him, and you have been commanded to do what you need to do.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Belive, repent, confess, and be baptized and live faithful unto death – Rev 2:10.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]No all these are not found in one passage, that we we are to study – Acts 17:11, II Tim 2:15.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Not true. Peter only commanded those who repented to be baptised. not to get saverd, but because they had remmision of sin. Much like John the baptist refused to baptise anyone who could not prove they already had remmision of sin. Read my above comment, I explained this in detail.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
· [FONT="]How far will you twist an easy passage to hold to error?[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Im going to go ahead and break down your statement to expose the error of reading into the text.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Quote: Peter only commanded those who repented to be baptised. not to get saverd, but because they had remmision of sin.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?[/FONT]
· [FONT="]They wanted to know what they needed to do to be saved, not because they were saved.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]When they heard Peter’s inspired sermon they were “pricked in their hearts”[/FONT]
· [FONT="]This is “godly sorrow” II Cor 7.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]II Cor 7:9 - Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance:[/FONT]
· [FONT="]2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]In Order to have “godly sorrow” you must already be a believer, otherwise it would not be godly.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Godly sorrow works REPENTENCE, and REPENTENCE works SALVATION[/FONT]
· [FONT="]This is exactly what happened to the Jews in Acts 3:[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]They were pricked in their hearts – Godly sorrow[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]They wanted to know what to do – Repent – turn from their sins of Law and embrasse the New Coventant[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Repentace worked salvation as they were baptized into Christ, and added to the church – Acts 2:47.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Acts 2:38 “repent and be baptized FOR (eis) the remmision of sin.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Not “because of “ as some try to force.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Eis – for, unto toward, all crediable lexicons agree – vines, strongs, Thayer, all crediable Bible translations render “eis” as “for” KJV, NKJV, ASV, ESV.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]They were not saved until they obeyed the gospel.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]That is not done by simply believing.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]That would have been a perfect time to answer – “believe and say the sinners prayer”[/FONT]
· [FONT="]But instead “repent and baptize FOR the remission of Sins.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Yet peter witness many gentiles get saved before they were baptised.[/FONT][FONT="] and paul said he was not sent to baptise, but preach the gospel. separating baptism and the gospel. why is this? [/FONT]
[FONT="]Answer: again, stop taking passages out of their context. If Paul was not sent to Baptise then why did he?[/FONT]
[FONT="]Again lets go to the context: [/FONT]1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. If he was not sent to baptize was he disobeying the Lord’s commands? Of course not. What Paul was saying is that the divisions they were making based upon who baptized them was not a part of the gospel, in which he was sent to preach. As said before without the gospel baptism is pointless. He was condemning their divisions, and in no way does his statement suggest that baptism itself is not a necessity Look at the immediate context of what is being discussed,
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
He is telling them of the unity they are supposed to have in Christ.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
They were making divisions among themselves, like the denominations do today with creed books and founders.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Is Christ divided he asks, no he is not, he then asks were you baptized in the name of Paul? They were not, so they had no reason to differentiate each other because they were all baptized in the name of Christ.
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
So we see Paul did in fact baptize, he was glad he did not baptize the ones disputing.
Again your missing the point and making the Bible seem as it is in contradiction with itself.
In reality it is man and his interpretations that misuses the Bible as you are atempting. If we take one passage and understand it in such a way that it disagrees with other passages, we need to rethink what we have interpreted as the meaning of the passage. I mean instead of running with one passage, why don’t you go read what else Paul said concerning baptism? – Rom 6:1-f, Gal 3:27, Eph 4:4-5 and so much more.
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]SHow me one person who was saved under the law? Hebrews would be a good start to find out who was saved under the law.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] ps. I used to believe this also.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_4:20[/FONT][FONT="] And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_4:26[/FONT][FONT="] And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_4:35[/FONT][FONT="] And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_5:10[/FONT][FONT="] And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_5:13[/FONT][FONT="] And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_6:7[/FONT][FONT="] And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Lev_19:22[/FONT][FONT="] And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Num_15:25[/FONT][FONT="] And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance: [/FONT]
[FONT="]Num_15:28[/FONT][FONT="] And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Are you saying God was lying to them? [/FONT]
[FONT="]What do you mean?[/FONT]
[FONT="]Are saying Abraham, Moses, David all were not saved?[/FONT]
[FONT="]They WERE SAVED BY OBEYING THE LAW BUT NOT UNTIL CHRIST SHED HIS BLOOD:[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]__________________
Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]QUESTION CONCERING ROM 8:1:[/FONT]
[FONT="]HOW DO WE GET INTO CHRIST?????[/FONT]
F
My Quote:
Now what if Noah answered God's waring with your kind of reasoning.
God - "build thee an ark"
Noah - "No Lord because i have found grace in your eyes, that would be working and I can not earn my salvation, I cannot work for my gift. You build the Ark and place me in it, then that will be grace."
What do you think would have happened to Noah?
You should know:
Noah was saved because: - Gen 6:22 "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he."
This goes right along with - Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
YOU SAID "Noah doing the work saved his physical life. We can not use this to speak of eternal things. Noah was saved just as abraham was (eternally) He believed god and it was accounted to him for righteousness. He also happened to save his life because he did the work. Like we all should do."
why can we not use Noah's work to speak of spiritual (eternal ) things?
Peter did:
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Peter took what happened to Noah's "physical life" and compared them to Baptism saving us - "Eternally"
"He also happened to save his life because he did the work. Like we all should do."
My point exactly, if he refused he would have perished!
He would have forfeited God's grace due to disobedience.
If we refuse to believe, or repent, confess, or be baptized we do the same.
Noah's faith was useless without obedience - SO IS YOURS.
WE ARE NOT SAVED BY FAITH ONLY, REPENTENCE ONLY, CONFESSION ONLY, OR BAPTISM ONLY,
BUT BY OBEYING ALL OF THESE COMMANDS
In fact the term "faith only" is found only one time in the New Testament:
HERE IT IS: Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.
This is not as hard as your making it.
- Noah found grace - Gen 6:8.
- God's grace warned Noah of the coming destruction - Gen 6:13.
- God's grace to Noah what he needed to do - "build thee an ark" - Gen 6:14
Now what if Noah answered God's waring with your kind of reasoning.
God - "build thee an ark"
Noah - "No Lord because i have found grace in your eyes, that would be working and I can not earn my salvation, I cannot work for my gift. You build the Ark and place me in it, then that will be grace."
What do you think would have happened to Noah?
You should know:
- God's grace has warned you - II Pet 3:10
- God's grace has told you what you need to do - Rom 8:1 - (be in Christ)
- Gods' grace has told you how to do so - Gal 3:27 (..as many of us as are baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (this is how we get in the ark)
Noah was saved because: - Gen 6:22 "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he."
This goes right along with - Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
YOU SAID "Noah doing the work saved his physical life. We can not use this to speak of eternal things. Noah was saved just as abraham was (eternally) He believed god and it was accounted to him for righteousness. He also happened to save his life because he did the work. Like we all should do."
why can we not use Noah's work to speak of spiritual (eternal ) things?
Peter did:
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Peter took what happened to Noah's "physical life" and compared them to Baptism saving us - "Eternally"
"He also happened to save his life because he did the work. Like we all should do."
My point exactly, if he refused he would have perished!
He would have forfeited God's grace due to disobedience.
If we refuse to believe, or repent, confess, or be baptized we do the same.
Noah's faith was useless without obedience - SO IS YOURS.
WE ARE NOT SAVED BY FAITH ONLY, REPENTENCE ONLY, CONFESSION ONLY, OR BAPTISM ONLY,
BUT BY OBEYING ALL OF THESE COMMANDS
In fact the term "faith only" is found only one time in the New Testament:
HERE IT IS: Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.
This is not as hard as your making it.
Last edited by a moderator:
E
Before we go any further. we need to get this right. Can you show me in scripture where it says this?
what was the purpose of the law?
Who did God give it to?
What did God say he would do if they obeyed this law? (Leviticus 26 should help you) Was it salvic in nature or was it temporal life and Gods blessings or cursing which was the nature (again lev 26 should help)
As I said, I used to believe as you do. I have since found my belief system was in error. So we need to get this hashed out first. for without it. Nothing else you commented on means anything.
F
Quote:
Before we go any further. we need to get this right. Can you show me in scripture where it says this?
what was the purpose of the law?
Who did God give it to?
What did God say he would do if they obeyed this law? (Leviticus 26 should help you) Was it salvic in nature or was it temporal life and Gods blessings or cursing which was the nature (again lev 26 should help)
As I said, I used to believe as you do. I have since found my belief system was in error. So we need to get this hashed out first. for without it. Nothing else you commented on means anything.
So basically, you are not going to answer any of the questions I posed and at the same time give me several questions to answer.
What I commented on means everything when it comes to the subject we are discussing.
You are more concerned about the old Test than the New.
In fact, even if we did not have the OT to read, we still have everything we need to understand what we need to do to be saved - II Pet 1:3.
I will answer your questions even though you have ignored mine. I will give you my questions once again in this response and ask you please answer them.
what was the purpose of the law? – There were many purposes as to why God gave man laws. You need to be specific to which law system are you referring – the patriarchal, the Mosaic, the Christian? If your speaking of the Law of Moses, it was given as “a school master to bring us to Christ.”
Who did God give it to? The law of Moses was given to the Israelites as they came out of Egypt.
What did God say he would do if they obeyed this law? (Leviticus 26 should help you) Was it salvic in nature or was it temporal life and Gods blessings or cursing which was the nature (again lev 26 should help) – According to Leviticus 26 it was blessing of nature, and in other places it was to bring them to the promise land, and in other to avoid the judgment of God. But this does not mean that they will not go to heaven if that’s what your getting at (honestly I have no idea where you are going with all this). We know that the Bible speaks of some in the OT as beieng saved spiritually (eternally) - Mat_8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
The law foreshadowed the NT. From the Passover lamb to the tabernacle all was a figure of what was to come. Still what does this have to do with faith only doctrine and baptism.
My questions to you:
· II Cor 7: - Does one have to already be a believer before they can feel godly sorrow?
· Can we be saved while still in our sins?
· Do we have to be buried with Christ in baptism?
· If I am saved upon my belief and feel I do not want to be baptized, will I still be saved?
· Is belief a work on our part or Gods?
· According to Acts 22:16, if Paul did not want to be baptized, would he be saved?
· Is repentance necessary for salvation?
· If I choose to believe and not obey, can I lose my salvation?
According to Rom 8:1 - there is no condemnation for those IN Christ, please explain to me how we are to be IN Christ.
I do appreciate your response, hope to hear back
-Ken
Before we go any further. we need to get this right. Can you show me in scripture where it says this?
what was the purpose of the law?
Who did God give it to?
What did God say he would do if they obeyed this law? (Leviticus 26 should help you) Was it salvic in nature or was it temporal life and Gods blessings or cursing which was the nature (again lev 26 should help)
As I said, I used to believe as you do. I have since found my belief system was in error. So we need to get this hashed out first. for without it. Nothing else you commented on means anything.
So basically, you are not going to answer any of the questions I posed and at the same time give me several questions to answer.
What I commented on means everything when it comes to the subject we are discussing.
You are more concerned about the old Test than the New.
In fact, even if we did not have the OT to read, we still have everything we need to understand what we need to do to be saved - II Pet 1:3.
I will answer your questions even though you have ignored mine. I will give you my questions once again in this response and ask you please answer them.
what was the purpose of the law? – There were many purposes as to why God gave man laws. You need to be specific to which law system are you referring – the patriarchal, the Mosaic, the Christian? If your speaking of the Law of Moses, it was given as “a school master to bring us to Christ.”
Who did God give it to? The law of Moses was given to the Israelites as they came out of Egypt.
What did God say he would do if they obeyed this law? (Leviticus 26 should help you) Was it salvic in nature or was it temporal life and Gods blessings or cursing which was the nature (again lev 26 should help) – According to Leviticus 26 it was blessing of nature, and in other places it was to bring them to the promise land, and in other to avoid the judgment of God. But this does not mean that they will not go to heaven if that’s what your getting at (honestly I have no idea where you are going with all this). We know that the Bible speaks of some in the OT as beieng saved spiritually (eternally) - Mat_8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
The law foreshadowed the NT. From the Passover lamb to the tabernacle all was a figure of what was to come. Still what does this have to do with faith only doctrine and baptism.
My questions to you:
· II Cor 7: - Does one have to already be a believer before they can feel godly sorrow?
· Can we be saved while still in our sins?
· Do we have to be buried with Christ in baptism?
· If I am saved upon my belief and feel I do not want to be baptized, will I still be saved?
· Is belief a work on our part or Gods?
· According to Acts 22:16, if Paul did not want to be baptized, would he be saved?
· Is repentance necessary for salvation?
· If I choose to believe and not obey, can I lose my salvation?
According to Rom 8:1 - there is no condemnation for those IN Christ, please explain to me how we are to be IN Christ.
I do appreciate your response, hope to hear back
-Ken
F
sorry I realized I did not answer your first question:
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Originally Posted by feedm3 [/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]The part of the Law the saved them, was them doing their part while they were under the Law.
They had a law to obey, if they did not obey it they were not saved.
It is true that no one was saved until Christ shed His blood at the cross. His blood flows backward and forward. Those under the Law who decided not to obey, and turn to sin, perished. Yes the Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, as the law foreshadowed the new covenant.
Yet a major flaw in many people interpretation are getting the "works" under the Law of Moses confused with "works" under the gospel. The law of Moses is gone, it's works mean nothing, however, the works under the New Testament mean much..[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]Before we go any further. we need to get this right. Can you show me in scripture where it says this?[/FONT]
· Where it says which part?
· If “they were to obey the law they were under to have their sins forgiven” its pretty much every where in the Pentateuch.
· If you mean, “[FONT="]It is true that no one was saved until Christ shed His blood at the cross” [/FONT][FONT="]it is implied by passages such as:[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT]Heb_10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
· If you mean, “[FONT="]Yes the Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, as the law foreshadowed the new covenant.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Or if you mean,“. The law of Moses is gone, it's works mean nothing, however, the works under the New Testament mean much”[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[/FONT]
[FONT="]This shows we are not under the Law it is gone.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Originally Posted by feedm3 [/FONT][FONT="]
[FONT="]The part of the Law the saved them, was them doing their part while they were under the Law.
They had a law to obey, if they did not obey it they were not saved.
It is true that no one was saved until Christ shed His blood at the cross. His blood flows backward and forward. Those under the Law who decided not to obey, and turn to sin, perished. Yes the Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, as the law foreshadowed the new covenant.
Yet a major flaw in many people interpretation are getting the "works" under the Law of Moses confused with "works" under the gospel. The law of Moses is gone, it's works mean nothing, however, the works under the New Testament mean much..[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]Before we go any further. we need to get this right. Can you show me in scripture where it says this?[/FONT]
· Where it says which part?
· If “they were to obey the law they were under to have their sins forgiven” its pretty much every where in the Pentateuch.
· If you mean, “[FONT="]It is true that no one was saved until Christ shed His blood at the cross” [/FONT][FONT="]it is implied by passages such as:[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT]Heb_10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
· If you mean, “[FONT="]Yes the Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, as the law foreshadowed the new covenant.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Or if you mean,“. The law of Moses is gone, it's works mean nothing, however, the works under the New Testament mean much”[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[/FONT]
[FONT="]This shows we are not under the Law it is gone.[/FONT]
Last edited by a moderator:
E
1. Sorry, But unless we get the first thing settled. nothing else you posted matters.
2. for having what we need in the NT. Funny, Paul told timothy he had everything he needed as a child to be saved. Considering timothy's age, he would have had NO ACCESS to the NT, (all he would have had is the OT) thus according to you he could not have been saved. because no command in the OT was ever given to be baptized to be saved.
3. I am not stuck on the OT. I am asking a literal question. how were OT people saved. The author of hebres makes it clear. no one was saved by the law. so how were they saved?.
Does the NT speak about any law other than the mosaic law? come on now!!
also. the law was given to bring EVERYONE to Christ. Who did Christ quote concerning himself? Did he say the law and the prophets pointed to him, and because if it. THEY should have known who he was when he came? It does not just point us to him,k it should have pointed OT people to him too!
Finally we can agree!
My point was that the law was given for conditional blessing or cursing of a nation on Earth. Not as a way to get to heaven. The jews thought differently. that is why they had Christ killed. Because they thought they were made right with the God by the law. Yet Scripture says no one was made right by the law. All the law did was condemn Eternally) those where were under it. So if no one was saved by the law. how were they saved? Why did they not need to be baptised and we all of sudden do? It makes no sense that absolutely NO OT ceremony or tradition or law had anything to do whit there salvation. so why all of a sudden did God add conditions to us for us to be saved?.
so lets answer my question. them we can move on!
Again;. How were OT saints saved?
2. for having what we need in the NT. Funny, Paul told timothy he had everything he needed as a child to be saved. Considering timothy's age, he would have had NO ACCESS to the NT, (all he would have had is the OT) thus according to you he could not have been saved. because no command in the OT was ever given to be baptized to be saved.
3. I am not stuck on the OT. I am asking a literal question. how were OT people saved. The author of hebres makes it clear. no one was saved by the law. so how were they saved?.
Does the NT speak about any law other than the mosaic law? come on now!!
also. the law was given to bring EVERYONE to Christ. Who did Christ quote concerning himself? Did he say the law and the prophets pointed to him, and because if it. THEY should have known who he was when he came? It does not just point us to him,k it should have pointed OT people to him too!
Finally we can agree!
My point was that the law was given for conditional blessing or cursing of a nation on Earth. Not as a way to get to heaven. The jews thought differently. that is why they had Christ killed. Because they thought they were made right with the God by the law. Yet Scripture says no one was made right by the law. All the law did was condemn Eternally) those where were under it. So if no one was saved by the law. how were they saved? Why did they not need to be baptised and we all of sudden do? It makes no sense that absolutely NO OT ceremony or tradition or law had anything to do whit there salvation. so why all of a sudden did God add conditions to us for us to be saved?.
so lets answer my question. them we can move on!
Again;. How were OT saints saved?
E
sorry I realized I did not answer your first question:
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Originally Posted by feedm3 [/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]The part of the Law the saved them, was them doing their part while they were under the Law.
They had a law to obey, if they did not obey it they were not saved.
It is true that no one was saved until Christ shed His blood at the cross. His blood flows backward and forward. Those under the Law who decided not to obey, and turn to sin, perished. Yes the Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, as the law foreshadowed the new covenant.
Yet a major flaw in many people interpretation are getting the "works" under the Law of Moses confused with "works" under the gospel. The law of Moses is gone, it's works mean nothing, however, the works under the New Testament mean much..[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]Before we go any further. we need to get this right. Can you show me in scripture where it says this?[/FONT]
· Where it says which part?
· If “they were to obey the law they were under to have their sins forgiven” its pretty much every where in the Pentateuch.
· If you mean, “[FONT="]It is true that no one was saved until Christ shed His blood at the cross” [/FONT][FONT="]it is implied by passages such as:[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT]Heb_10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
· If you mean, “[FONT="]Yes the Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, as the law foreshadowed the new covenant.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Or if you mean,“. The law of Moses is gone, it's works mean nothing, however, the works under the New Testament mean much”[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[/FONT]
[FONT="]This shows we are not under the Law it is gone.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Originally Posted by feedm3 [/FONT][FONT="]
[FONT="]The part of the Law the saved them, was them doing their part while they were under the Law.
They had a law to obey, if they did not obey it they were not saved.
It is true that no one was saved until Christ shed His blood at the cross. His blood flows backward and forward. Those under the Law who decided not to obey, and turn to sin, perished. Yes the Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, as the law foreshadowed the new covenant.
Yet a major flaw in many people interpretation are getting the "works" under the Law of Moses confused with "works" under the gospel. The law of Moses is gone, it's works mean nothing, however, the works under the New Testament mean much..[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]Before we go any further. we need to get this right. Can you show me in scripture where it says this?[/FONT]
· Where it says which part?
· If “they were to obey the law they were under to have their sins forgiven” its pretty much every where in the Pentateuch.
· If you mean, “[FONT="]It is true that no one was saved until Christ shed His blood at the cross” [/FONT][FONT="]it is implied by passages such as:[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT]Heb_10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
· If you mean, “[FONT="]Yes the Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, as the law foreshadowed the new covenant.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Or if you mean,“. The law of Moses is gone, it's works mean nothing, however, the works under the New Testament mean much”[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[/FONT]
[FONT="]This shows we are not under the Law it is gone.[/FONT]