Just whose tribulation is it anyway when the AoD is set up,is it sent forth unto them because the beast is angry or is it sent forth because God is angry,is the first trump the last?
All 7 trumpets have been blown, big discovery! Thoughts?
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Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mark 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
Luke 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
So, they knew not yet the scripture that said he must rise again from the dead? And many bodies of the saints rose?
How many resurrections are there?
Mark 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
Luke 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
So, they knew not yet the scripture that said he must rise again from the dead? And many bodies of the saints rose?
How many resurrections are there?
Christ resurrected once. Saints shall resurrect at God's last trump, which is not the 7th angels trump in Revelation. What are you perplexed about my friend?
Joel & Revelation may be connected, but do consider this;
If you think about it, if certain events were to have had happened at the time of Christ or before Christ, what need be there for John's Book of Revelation?
Just because John may have written a symbolism in reference to when Christ was on earth; that does not necessarily place everything else in the Book of Revelation has having occurred in the past. That could have been a flashback.
Revelation 12:[SUP]5 [/SUP]And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Christ's ascension reference? Or the pre tribulational rapture as Christ the Firstfruits led the way?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
When the nation of Israel was scattered before coming back to be a nation again?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,[SUP]8 [/SUP]And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Definitely read the pre trib rapture here and the coming great tribulation when the devil knows his time is short on earth.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
So the Book of Joel may be mirroring a yet future event and just because John makes a reference to the time when Christ was on earth, that does not mean the Book of Revelation had already happened, because there would be no need for John to present the Book of Revelation as concerning events yet to happen.
Which does make one wonder that if a scroll has seven seals, it is not officially "opened" until the last seal is broken and thus indicative that each event of each seal will happen all at once? If so, then the events transpired at the time of the pre tribulational rapture... it seems.
Greeting Enow,
Just some information for you to check out, unless of course you already know it. The time-line of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19 when Jesus told John to write:
What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches, also representing the entire church period
What will take place later = Everything that will take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period.
In support of the above, you have the following:
Revelation 1 thru 3 = Ekklesia/church only, no hagios/saints
Revelation 4 onward = Hagios/Saints only, no ekklesia/church
Voice like a trumpet saying 'come up here' = Trumpet call of God found in 1 Thes.4:16
The language in the verse above infers the "male child" as being caught up without being devoured/killed by the dragon/Satan. Regarding this, Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the male child, because he was not caught up, but crucified and then resurrected. I believe that the male child will be "caught up" in the same way that the living church will experience being caught up at the time of the resurrection. According to what I have from my studies is that, the male child is a collective name for the 144,000 who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah and who will come out of the twelve tribes of Israel (gives birth to). Also, Rev.14 states that these are those who will have not defiled themselves with women, which would make this group all males, ergo, "male child."
Just some information for you to check out, unless of course you already know it. The time-line of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19 when Jesus told John to write:
What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches, also representing the entire church period
What will take place later = Everything that will take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period.
In support of the above, you have the following:
Revelation 1 thru 3 = Ekklesia/church only, no hagios/saints
Revelation 4 onward = Hagios/Saints only, no ekklesia/church
Voice like a trumpet saying 'come up here' = Trumpet call of God found in 1 Thes.4:16
The language in the verse above infers the "male child" as being caught up without being devoured/killed by the dragon/Satan. Regarding this, Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the male child, because he was not caught up, but crucified and then resurrected. I believe that the male child will be "caught up" in the same way that the living church will experience being caught up at the time of the resurrection. According to what I have from my studies is that, the male child is a collective name for the 144,000 who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah and who will come out of the twelve tribes of Israel (gives birth to). Also, Rev.14 states that these are those who will have not defiled themselves with women, which would make this group all males, ergo, "male child."
really good stuff.
matthew 28:18-20 "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying ,ALL POWER IS GIVEN INTO ME in HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the HOLY GHOST: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even UNTO THE END of the world. Amen."
then Jesus is taken up to Heaven...
Revelation 5:5-6 "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, HATH PREVAILED to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God SENT FORTH INTO ALL THE EARTH."
Jesus receiving all the authority He spoke of in matthew in Heaven, when He ascended to the throne when " stephen and others saw Him seated on the throne in Heaven at God s right hand Long before revelation was written. This leads to basically His coronation in Heaven
V11-And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12Saying with a loud voice, WORTHY IS THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN to RECEIVE POWER, and RICHES, and WISDOM, and STRENGTH, and HONOUR, and GLORY, and BLESSING 13And every creature which is in HEAVEN, and on the EARTH, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, BLESSING, and HONOUR, and GLORY, and POWER, be unto him that sitteth UPON THE THRONE, and UNTO THE LAMB FOREVER AND EVER . 14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty ELDERS fell down and WORSHIPPED HIM that LIVETH for ever and ever."
Jesus says " Luke 10:17- 20 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning FALL FROM HEAVEN. 19Behold, I GIVE UNTO YOU POWER to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."
revelation 12 :And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to HIS THRONE......7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was CAST OUT, that old serpent, called the Devil, and SATAN, which DECEIVETH THE WHOLE WORLD: he was CAST INTO THE EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
When Jesus was born remember satan came and tried to tempt Him 3 times? Herod tried to destroy Him at Birth, and persecuted the church of rome for 3oo years after Jesus was resurrected.....
It is kind of confusing. The apostle Paul said that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. He also said if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. It would seem that if you are with the Lord you hardly need to be resurrected from the dead because you are alive with Christ. On the other hand, if you need to be resurrected from the dead then you are dead and certainly not with the Lord. It does not seem reasonable that both conditions could exist for Paul at the same time...any thoughts?
Hello samuel23,
It becomes less confusing once you understand that when Paul said "to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord" that he speaking of his spirit/soul.
Everyone who has died in Christ from the onset of the church, their spirits/souls have departed and have gone to be in his presence, where they are looking forward to the resurrection when they will be reunited with those immortal and glorified bodies that they will receive. On the other hand, those who are in Christ who are still alive at the time of the resurrection, will be transformed into those immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them.
The Lord resurrected in the same body that was placed in the tomb, albeit, immortal and glorified, just as all believers will experience.
Greetings Ahwatukee!
There are multiple problems with the interpretation you have come up with, I'll list a few of the major ones:
-The 144,000 are sealed stand in front of the Throne after the 6th seal, before the manchild is even born.
-The 144,000 have the washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the lamb (Revelation 7:14, they do not have the testimony of Jesus Christ like the seed of the manchild do in Revelation 12.
-The 144,000 were not responsible for creating "remnants of her seed" which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
-The remnant of the womans seed do 2 things: keep the commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ (THATS US BROTHER
)Glory, Honor, Dominion, and Majesty be to the One who is able to keep us from falling. Amen.
Are you trying to say that there is another one to rule with a rule with a rod of iron?.......... Jesus was the manchild.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to HIS throne. Is it really that hard for people to believe that this is Jesus? I cant believe nobody else has interpreted Revelations this way. Probably because they thought it was all gonna happen in the future, even though we are told that it is the final hour! 1 John 2:18
Hello SpiritLed,
I can assure that there is nothing at all wrong with my conclusion, as I have been quite thorough in comparing and cross-referencing scripture. Furthermore, I don't make a claim about scripture until I am sure that what I am teaching is correct.
There are two groups introduced in Revelation 7
1). The 144,000 from the twelve tribes, who are sealed and who come out of the woman/Israel, as the first fruits to God who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.
2). The great multitude which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which makes them Gentile believers. The Elder asks John who this group is and he doesn't know. The elder then says, these are those who have come out of the great tribulation.
Regarding the first group, John hears the number of those who are sealed, 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. Then he breaks down the 144,000 into groups of 12,000 per each tribe, which would demonstrate that a literal number is being used.
In comparison, the second group is a number which no man can count, meaning that it is a very high number. They are also said to be from every nation, tribe, people and language, which makes them Gentile believers and which is in direct opposition with those mentioned as being sealed out of Israel.
Also, you said that the 144,000 "stand before the throne after the 6th seal," which is false! For it is the "great number that no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language" which are said to be standing before the throne, as described in Rev.7:9. There is nothing in the context stating that the 144,000 are standing before the throne. It is not until Rev.14 that we see the male child/144,000 after in heaven after they have been redeemed from the earth.
In addition, the phrase "gives birth to" is not meant as referring to a literal child birth, but is figurative referring to the 144,000 who come out of Israel, as those who recognize Jesus as their Messiah.
Again, those who "wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the Lamb" is referring to that multitude which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language. What you are doing is mixing the two groups as being the same people, while the scripture makes a definite distinction between the two.
Revelation 7:1-8 = The 144,000
Revelation 7:9-17 = The great multitude which no man can count
NO! Those who keep the commandments of God in that verse is not the church. In Rev.12:5, the male child/144,000 are said to be caught to God's throne. After that event In Rev.12: 7-9,13-17, the dragon/Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth. The dragon/Satan goes after the woman/Israel, who gave birth to the male child who will have previously been caught up to God's throne.
In addition and as I pointed out in the previous post, you will not find the word "Ekklesia/church" used anywhere from Revelation 4 onward. The next time the church is alluded to, is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride at the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven. The next time that the word "Ekklesia/church" is used is outside of the narrative in Rev.22:16
Furthermore, if you have the church as being the 144,000, first of all, there are a heck of a lot more believers than just 144,000. This is a JW's teaching. And second you would be putting the church as being on earth during the time that God's wrath is being poured out, which we are not appointed to suffer.
I can assure that there is nothing at all wrong with my conclusion, as I have been quite thorough in comparing and cross-referencing scripture. Furthermore, I don't make a claim about scripture until I am sure that what I am teaching is correct.
There are two groups introduced in Revelation 7
1). The 144,000 from the twelve tribes, who are sealed and who come out of the woman/Israel, as the first fruits to God who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.
2). The great multitude which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which makes them Gentile believers. The Elder asks John who this group is and he doesn't know. The elder then says, these are those who have come out of the great tribulation.
Regarding the first group, John hears the number of those who are sealed, 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. Then he breaks down the 144,000 into groups of 12,000 per each tribe, which would demonstrate that a literal number is being used.
In comparison, the second group is a number which no man can count, meaning that it is a very high number. They are also said to be from every nation, tribe, people and language, which makes them Gentile believers and which is in direct opposition with those mentioned as being sealed out of Israel.
Also, you said that the 144,000 "stand before the throne after the 6th seal," which is false! For it is the "great number that no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language" which are said to be standing before the throne, as described in Rev.7:9. There is nothing in the context stating that the 144,000 are standing before the throne. It is not until Rev.14 that we see the male child/144,000 after in heaven after they have been redeemed from the earth.
In addition, the phrase "gives birth to" is not meant as referring to a literal child birth, but is figurative referring to the 144,000 who come out of Israel, as those who recognize Jesus as their Messiah.
Again, those who "wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the Lamb" is referring to that multitude which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language. What you are doing is mixing the two groups as being the same people, while the scripture makes a definite distinction between the two.
Revelation 7:1-8 = The 144,000
Revelation 7:9-17 = The great multitude which no man can count
-The remnant of the woman's seed do 2 things: keep the commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ (THATS US BROTHER
NO! Those who keep the commandments of God in that verse is not the church. In Rev.12:5, the male child/144,000 are said to be caught to God's throne. After that event In Rev.12: 7-9,13-17, the dragon/Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth. The dragon/Satan goes after the woman/Israel, who gave birth to the male child who will have previously been caught up to God's throne.
In addition and as I pointed out in the previous post, you will not find the word "Ekklesia/church" used anywhere from Revelation 4 onward. The next time the church is alluded to, is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride at the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven. The next time that the word "Ekklesia/church" is used is outside of the narrative in Rev.22:16
Furthermore, if you have the church as being the 144,000, first of all, there are a heck of a lot more believers than just 144,000. This is a JW's teaching. And second you would be putting the church as being on earth during the time that God's wrath is being poured out, which we are not appointed to suffer.
Hello again SpiritLed,
There are three in Revelation who are attributed with the phrase "rule with a rod of iron."
Those of the church who are victorious:
"And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery—just as I have received authority from My Father. - Rev.2:26-27
The Male child/144,000
"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter" - Rev.12:5
And the Lord Jesus
"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter" - Rev.19:15
Regarding Jesus being the male child, people just follow suit having adopted that teaching. But the truth is that, Jesus does not fit the criteria of the male child.
Man Child = Caught up to God's throne without harm, out of the dragon reach. The same word "harpazo" translated as "caught up" is the same word used here for the male child in the same way that the living church is caught up as described in 1 Thes.4:16.
Jesus = Crucified and resurrected. In keeping with the scripture, Jesus would have been devoured.
There are three in Revelation who are attributed with the phrase "rule with a rod of iron."
Those of the church who are victorious:
"And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery—just as I have received authority from My Father. - Rev.2:26-27
The Male child/144,000
"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter" - Rev.12:5
And the Lord Jesus
"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter" - Rev.19:15
Regarding Jesus being the male child, people just follow suit having adopted that teaching. But the truth is that, Jesus does not fit the criteria of the male child.
Man Child = Caught up to God's throne without harm, out of the dragon reach. The same word "harpazo" translated as "caught up" is the same word used here for the male child in the same way that the living church is caught up as described in 1 Thes.4:16.
Jesus = Crucified and resurrected. In keeping with the scripture, Jesus would have been devoured.
I would suggest if the last trump had blown Like with Joshua and Jericho we would have our new incorruptible bodies which will be neither male or female Jew or Gentile. That will occur on the last day, the second and final resurrection. The end of this world as we know it. Just as it was for those in Jericho who knew not God.
Two groups, one chaste virgin bride the church.
I see that parable differently. From my perspective I would be careful remembering what God has joined together let no man separate. The description is of one chaste virgin bride the church made up of Jew and Gentile alike, as a new born again creation. God establishes no difference.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9
All Israel are not born again Israel. Just as a outward Jew, pertaining to the flesh is not one inwardly born again of the Spirit of Christ, through the word of God.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
The kingdom of God is not of this world. Because of that.... we walk by faith and not by sight as a way of trusting God, not seen. He forbids the counting of the men seeing it would make faith (the unseen) without effect and therefore men would be trusting in the flesh.
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Even with His promises that have to do with generations he uses the word thousand to represent all the generations. Not giving an exact number so that men could walk by sight but must continue to walk by the faith of Christ working in us both to will and do his god pleasure ,as a imputed righteousness not of our own selves.
And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. 2Samuel 24:10
Num 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
All that are sealed represent the chaste virgin bride of Christ.,using tribes to represent the old testament saints and apostles to represent the rest of the saints the new government because Christ had come.
The hundred and forty and four thousand represent His chaste virgin bride the church clothed in white (the righteousness of Christ.)
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Still informing us of all that are sealed as born again he adds the remnant of His bride
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
One chaste virgin bride, represented by a number no man could count (144,000)
It would I believe be like counting dust particles.
As I continue to make known, from Revelation 1 thru the end of chapter 3 only the word Ekklesia/church is used within those chapters. From Revelation 4 onward, beginning at 5:8, the word hagios/saints is used and you never see Ekklesia/church again.
Regarding what you said above, the fact remains that Revelation 7 introduces two separate groups made up of different numbers and different people, Israel and Gentiles. Your error is not believing what scripture says. The 144,000 is not representing the church, but a literal group consisting of 144,000 who are of Israel just as the scripture states.
The above is implied by you and is pure conjecture, subjective. These two groups are exactly who they are, 144,000 out of Israel and an a great multitude from every nation, tribe, people and language, making them Gentiles. Neither group is referred to as the church.