And He Carries Her Off Into the Sunset... (Pornography Marketed Toward Women.)

[seoulsearch]

Hey hey, Everybody,

Just thought I'd share a few things on my mind and ask for your thoughts and opinions, as always!!!

Many of the women I work with are avid readers and have started a small book exchange in our locker room. The other day, I was browsing through some of the titles and back covers... and have to admit feeling a little dismayed that most of these books were romance novels with varying genres (mystery, suspense, Western, historical, etc.) but they all seemed to have the same theme: "Stranger X, who just happens to be a slightly ornery ultra-mega-gazillionaire, moves in next door to Lady Y, a stubbornly fierce and independent woman who has no need for Mr. X in her life but yet finds herself strangely attracted to him anyway."

And you all know the rest of the story... an illicit affair and supposed true love and a happily ever after will soon follow... Yeah, right.

Although I was never into these types of books, when I was in high school, I did fall prey to the Flowers in the Attic series (V.C. Andrews), which is basically a type of revenge-based porn. Although there is little sex in the books per se, the main theme of all her books is that the people who have done wrong absolutely must, and will, pay for their unfair deeds.

Being an anger-filled teenager who was frustrated at spending a lifetime in Christian schools that told me what to do and how to act, but often vehemently swept any signs of real-life struggles under the rug for the sake of appearances (girls who became pregnant at my high school conveniently "disappeared"), this was right up my alley. I latched right on to dramatic stories of women who used their looks to punish the people who had done them wrong, even though it was something I didn't do in my own life (I never had the looks to do it or I honestly might have tried.)

Now, I am NOT trying to judge anyone who may read these types of books, but, I personally wonder at how they make us view relationships and what to expect from a potential husband someday. Again, this is just my opinion, but I've come to view books and stories like this as a form of pornography (because it produces a skewed outlook of relationships, sex, and intimacy) especially targeted towards women and nowadays, I tend to avoid these types of themes in books, movies, and entertainment as much as I possibly can.

You can feel free to disagree with me, but I think that many of today's movies ("chick flicks") are all filled with many of the same messages (I happen to prefer films in which a lot of things get blown up and/or a lot of people get their butts kicked... which is just as bad in other ways!)

Do we, as women, feel that men are somehow going to meet all expectations, sweep us off our feet, provide for our every whim, fight off all our battles, and be automatic experts at sex from the moment we say "I do" at the altar, AND be ultimate, 100%, makes-as-little-mistakes-as-possible Christians in addition?

We tell ourselves, "Oh, as long as he's a nice guy and a good Christian, that's all I want", but is it REALLY? Are we secretly disappointed that some mysterious billionaire doesn't show up on our doorstep quoting Bible verses? What can we do to cultivate a more realistic view of what we should be looking for and expecting in relationships and future marriages?

I am certainly no exception and am guilty of having bought into some of these stereotypes, but I hope to get better!!

And, this is why I didn't post this exclusively in the Women's Forum: guys, I'd like to hear your opinions of this topic too. Do you feel that a lot of the entertainment industry sets up women to have very unrealistic expectations? What kinds of pressure and rejection does it set up on your end, and how can we, as Christian women, have more balanced views of members of the opposite gender?

I know unrealistic expectations are a problem all across the border--I just thought it would be interesting to look at the subject from a slightly different angle.

G'bless, and thanks for voicing your opinions and experiences.

 

[NodMyHeadLikeYeah]

your on a role tonight woman. This is a great issue to talk about.

As you know and as all women know, we want an emotional connection over a sexual one. I think with reading these books that gives some women the emotional connection they feel their lacking in their own relationships.

If you are dating or married and your read these types of books, i believe it will cause you to become very unsatisfied with your relationship. In romance novels the man always says the right thing, makes the woman feel the right way, always does the right thing. its all just perfect. In real life your husband boyfriend is nothing like that. There human, and lets face it men say stupid things........... a lot! ( no offense to you guys!) It is easy to start comparing the men in the book to the man that you are with when your reading novels with perfect fictional characters.

For myself i stay away from them. I enjoy murder mysterys much better!

 

[torotoro]

1,074 posts, impressive!

Well, I'm a guy, an abnormal kind of guy, but then again we all like to think we are a bit abnormal, so it really makes me a pretty normal guy, anyway, I say this because my reply is my personal opinion. Hopefully this will prevent any kind of misunderstandings. Fairy tales dont exist. Prince Charmings died out before the dinosaurs became extinct, there is no knight in shining armor, all men are the same, etc., etc. Women influence men BIG TIME, even if we argue and pretend that that they dont. And with those ideas, and the whole thinking of "I shouldnt expect much from men because they'll always disappoint me", well, I think that just puts a man down. Why would I even try to be a "knight in shining armor" if the woman I want to protect thinks I'm not capable of doing it? Why even bother?

I really like a part of The Grapes of Wrath. It reads: "And the women came out of the houses to stand beside their men - to feel whether this time the men would break. The women studied the men's faces secretly, for the corn could go, as long as something else remained...After a while the faces of the watching men lost their bemused perplexity and became hard and angry and resistant. Then the women knew that they were safe and that there was no break. Then they asked, What'll we do? And the men replied; I don't know. But it was all right...Women and children knew deep in themselves that no misfortune was too great to bear if their men were whole."

I think that's what men would like (I know I would) to hear. They would like being told: "You know what, the money can go, everything can go because I know that you are a man that fights, a man that becomes hard and angry and resistant to life's problems. As long as you are whole, we can bear anything. You might not know what to do, but I feel safe and I trust you." Something along those lines. I'm pretty sure if women asked for whole men, men would either start trying to achieve that cause it's either being whole or not getting a woman.

So now a question, I dont know if it'll get answered but it's worth the try. Let's say you have a boyfriend/husband whatever, but you have a man. And you trust him, and you have the "the corn could go, as long as something remained" mentality, what would that "something" be to you? What would your man have to lose for you to not trust him anymore?

 

[NodMyHeadLikeYeah]

1,074 posts, impressive!

Well, I'm a guy, an abnormal kind of guy, but then again we all like to think we are a bit abnormal, so it really makes me a pretty normal guy, anyway, I say this because my reply is my personal opinion. Hopefully this will prevent any kind of misunderstandings. Fairy tales dont exist. Prince Charmings died out before the dinosaurs became extinct, there is no knight in shining armor, all men are the same, etc., etc. Women influence men BIG TIME, even if we argue and pretend that that they dont. And with those ideas, and the whole thinking of "I shouldnt expect much from men because they'll always disappoint me", well, I think that just puts a man down. Why would I even try to be a "knight in shining armor" if the woman I want to protect thinks I'm not capable of doing it? Why even bother?

I really like a part of The Grapes of Wrath. It reads: "And the women came out of the houses to stand beside their men - to feel whether this time the men would break. The women studied the men's faces secretly, for the corn could go, as long as something else remained...After a while the faces of the watching men lost their bemused perplexity and became hard and angry and resistant. Then the women knew that they were safe and that there was no break. Then they asked, What'll we do? And the men replied; I don't know. But it was all right...Women and children knew deep in themselves that no misfortune was too great to bear if their men were whole."

I think that's what men would like (I know I would) to hear. They would like being told: "You know what, the money can go, everything can go because I know that you are a man that fights, a man that becomes hard and angry and resistant to life's problems. As long as you are whole, we can bear anything. You might not know what to do, but I feel safe and I trust you." Something along those lines. I'm pretty sure if women asked for whole men, men would either start trying to achieve that cause it's either being whole or not getting a woman.

So now a question, I dont know if it'll get answered but it's worth the try. Let's say you have a boyfriend/husband whatever, but you have a man. And you trust him, and you have the "the corn could go, as long as something remained" mentality, what would that "something" be to you? What would your man have to lose for you to not trust him anymore?

soooo you wanna remain with me??

Seriously great reply!

 

[seoulsearch]

1,074 posts, impressive!

So now a question, I dont know if it'll get answered but it's worth the try. Let's say you have a boyfriend/husband whatever, but you have a man. And you trust him, and you have the "the corn could go, as long as something remained" mentality, what would that "something" be to you? What would your man have to lose for you to not trust him anymore?

Ha, don't be impressed by my number of posts, Torotoro--I've just been here a while and the CC community is gracious enough to put up with me!

I would no longer trust a man and would leave if he were unfaithful, even if that unfaithfulness were a pornography addiction. I know some couples work through this and stay together, but I could not.

I agree with Nod as well in that I think our entire culture tries to "sell" us the dream relationship and supposed person... Everything is better, faster, newer, richer... But people themselves are not refrigerators and smart phones... and I wonder what's going to happen in the advent of "social networking", as there have been, and are, so many marriages/relationships breaking up because of things like reconnecting with an old boyfriend, etc.

One of my inspirations for this post was a co-worker who just told me about their sister, who is convinced she will be perfectly happy if she leaves her husband of 12 years for a high school flame she found on Facebook. Never mind that she also had a child and her old flame has not changed since high school--he's still an alcoholic and can't hold a job, but we get stars in our eyes and think someone else will make us so much happier.

I am NOT blaming Facebook at all, and I am all for online dating among single, unmarried, unattached people if they feel it's an option for them, but when I see all these big numbers about how many people are on these sites...

I often wish they'd also post the numbers as to how many marriages have been broken up because of finding someone else on these sites as well. (I like to hear both sides of the story!)

 

[Matthew]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the kind of books you talk about as long as they don't cross that line from romantic fantasy into written porn, these books are written for women and it is crucial that women don't start using these male characters as the standard by which they judge men in real life......and in just the same way men need to avoid holding women to the standards displayed in mens magazines right through to pornography.

We are our own enemy when it comes to finding a mate because all people to some extent have nursed the fantasy of a near perfect partner at some time and for men that's often the oddly devoted supermodel type that all the other guys want but can't have and for the women it's the hunky guy that still manages to be a one woman man and ever sensitive to her needs......if either exist they are the very rarest.

Truth is bad messages in all mediums outnumber the good ones a hundred to one and christians have their own ways of elevating expectations to an unreasonable and unrealistic level, the solution is the same as it's always been and that's to keep your eye on the ball......recognise the core qualities in a person that see them rise above the trivial conflicts in daily life and deliver the crucial things and look for them above everything else, have your wish-list but make sure you have it in 2nd place....or you'll never end up with up a No.1 spouse.

 

[seoulsearch]

I have a friend who feels sorry for my state of singleness, and as a way of supposedly "keeping my faith alive," she made me read a book of Christian romances... UGH!!! I hated these stories even more than the secular ones because in each case, a believer fell in love with a nonbeliever or vice versa, and the unbeliever becomes an on-fire Christian... and they live happily ever after, with not so much as a word of things such as to how they dealt with sexual temptation before marriage, etc. I can't stand situations in which all reality is completely glossed and not even discussed for the sake of "faith".

Thinking back to my own upbringing, if the pastors and teachers would have just said, "You're human, you're going to struggle, and guess what, we're human we're struggling too...", I think it would have made things so much easier for both the students and for themselves, but there was no mention of that, just a basic creed of, "Be quiet, accept what we teach you as law, don't cause trouble, don't say anything that might make us look bad, and if you suffer, just pray more and read your Bible more because you obviously must have someone brought it upon yourself."

Although I'm no expert in women's romance novels, I can tell you that from what I've seen as far as the secular versions go, they are very graphic and would definitely qualify as written pornography. (It's like a foreign language--you're immediately drawn to the worst words, phrases, and scenes.)

It's also quite horrifying to see how young of audiences these markets are reaching. When I was in my preteens, my best friend and I went through a phase of buying, reading, and sharing various teen romances we picked up at the local bookstore. There was one book in particular that looked like any other... and although there were no pictures, it was one of the most graphic, shocking things I've ever read, whether as a kid or as an adult. To this day, I wish I could have it deleted from my memory!!! I have no idea how that book made it onto the shelves for an audience of 12-year-olds. But unfortunately, the shock is part of what draws you in.

I personally feel sorry for any guy who marries a woman who may innocently believe that this is how it's supposed to be. Having been married at one time, I can say flat-out that like most anything, sex requires a foundation of trust, honesty, and communication--it's not immediate fireworks, bells sounding, or birds floating around on golden halos like these novels seem to depict. I have talked to many women who have said they do not want to marry men who are virgins because they expect a man to know everything about sex (and yes, some of these are Christian women that I've talked to), which I think is horribly unfortunately, and partially due to ideals such as this, along with the fact that most Christian circles seem to advocate the idea that God would never want His people to be educated about or discuss the subject of sex... never mind that He was the one who formulated the idea in the first place...

And in some cases, I think that many people turn to sources like this because in some ways, I think they believe this is the only way they can get any kind of information about sex, romance, and relationships (you don't see too many churches holding classes on sex education--sex was never mentioned in my Christian schools except as a DON'T--"Don't do it!" "Don't think about it!" "And for God's sake, don't ask about it!"), which, in my opinion, leaves us all open to very damaging worldly ideals.

 

[lil-rush]

Redeeming Love by Francine Rivers, best Christian romance story I've ever read. I even got a guy friend who can't stand Christian romance to read it and he ended up loving it.

On topic, I like paranormal romance novels, but I find they could be way better without the bedroom scenes. I just like the whole paranormal quality of it. I really do think that many romance novels are the female equivalent of porn. Like Laurell Hamilton had a good series going into it delved completely into the sexual aspects. I stopped reading the series after that, because it went from being paranormal books with some romance to basically being sex books with some paranormal in it.

I think the worst about romance books is that the girls are always one extreme or the other, either extremely feminine and helpless or extremely feminist and unwilling to take any help from men. It gives girls the idea that we can't exist in a happy medium between the two.

 

[Blueberry]

1,074 posts, impressive!

Well, I'm a guy, an abnormal kind of guy, but then again we all like to think we are a bit abnormal, so it really makes me a pretty normal guy, anyway, I say this because my reply is my personal opinion. Hopefully this will prevent any kind of misunderstandings. Fairy tales dont exist. Prince Charmings died out before the dinosaurs became extinct, there is no knight in shining armor, all men are the same, etc., etc. Women influence men BIG TIME, even if we argue and pretend that that they dont. And with those ideas, and the whole thinking of "I shouldnt expect much from men because they'll always disappoint me", well, I think that just puts a man down. Why would I even try to be a "knight in shining armor" if the woman I want to protect thinks I'm not capable of doing it? Why even bother?

I really like a part of The Grapes of Wrath. It reads: "And the women came out of the houses to stand beside their men - to feel whether this time the men would break. The women studied the men's faces secretly, for the corn could go, as long as something else remained...After a while the faces of the watching men lost their bemused perplexity and became hard and angry and resistant. Then the women knew that they were safe and that there was no break. Then they asked, What'll we do? And the men replied; I don't know. But it was all right...Women and children knew deep in themselves that no misfortune was too great to bear if their men were whole."

I think that's what men would like (I know I would) to hear. They would like being told: "You know what, the money can go, everything can go because I know that you are a man that fights, a man that becomes hard and angry and resistant to life's problems. As long as you are whole, we can bear anything. You might not know what to do, but I feel safe and I trust you." Something along those lines. I'm pretty sure if women asked for whole men, men would either start trying to achieve that cause it's either being whole or not getting a woman.

So now a question, I dont know if it'll get answered but it's worth the try. Let's say you have a boyfriend/husband whatever, but you have a man. And you trust him, and you have the "the corn could go, as long as something remained" mentality, what would that "something" be to you? What would your man have to lose for you to not trust him anymore?

That was a beautiful post

 

[christiancollegegirl]

I used to read romance novels till they got too depressing. I mean, the men I know in real life are nothing like the rich, successful, romantic, gorgeous guys depicted in the book. Men are human too and they're going to let us down. No, he's not always gonna be there to rescue you just in the nick of time. Sometimes, you're gonna have to use your own wits to get yourself out of whatever scrape you got yourself into this time.

 

[nanabean]

You just gotta remember where you (or your friends/coworkers) got the book from in the first place ........ the FICTION section!!!! hahha I do understand all the comments, trust me I do, about it setting readers up for a preconceived notion of the "perfect" romance, etc., however, I have to say I feel a conviction that adults (kids shouldn't be able to get their hands on most of these books) who choose to read romance novels, should be mature enough to tell the difference from whats real and what is fictional for a reason. By this, ("fictional for a reason") I just mean that I think a romance novel, or any fictional novel really, as well as alot of "chick flicks" just take us to a place for a little while, take us away from the "here and now" of our lives. Sometimes that is needed. I am NOT in any way shape or form, trying to advocate reading pornographic type books, fictional or no!!, nor watching X-rated movies! There are many "tame" romance novels out there with no true "bedroom scenes" in them (yes I went through a phase too............but a "tame" one!!!!!) All I am saying is, is that books can take stress out of a day.....as long as you don't cornfuse what you are reading with what you expect your life to be.



p.s. I didn't typo..I meant "cornfused" ...hahahha..my dad (a farmer) used to say it that way all the time.....he said it like that cuz he likened being confused with being as out of it as standing out in the cornfield!!!

 

[DABEARS85]

I have a friend who feels sorry for my state of singleness, and etcetcetc

I'm not so sure I feel sorry for your singleness seoul. Without that, and I might not have such awesome forum posts to read day in and day out! Sometimes, I feel like I'm alone in the CC Singles Forum addiction, because my name will pop up as the last post in every single thread... and then you come along and fix that for me!

Anyway seoul, you are by far one of the most interesting people I've met on these forums or in real life! I really can't see why you would be unattractive at all to anyone with even a slight sense of humor! Very few people are able to keep me interesting in things they write as much as you do, so if you are like this in real life whatsoever... I definitely couldn't understand a reason to dislike you! I sure hope whoever I marry is half as interesting as you are day in and day out. Life would be pretty boring otherwise, don't ya think?

 

[NodMyHeadLikeYeah]

Seoul... will you marry me????????

 

[DABEARS85]

Seoul... will you marry me????????

These be fightin' words missy!

 

[NodMyHeadLikeYeah]

These be fightin' words missy!

you feelin froggy???

 

[DABEARS85]

you feelin froggy???

Do ya feel lucky punk? Well, do ya?

 

[NodMyHeadLikeYeah]

Do ya feel lucky punk? Well, do ya?

well yeah.. a little

 

[seoulsearch]

Seoul... will you marry me????????

I'm sorry, Nod, but... I fell fast and hard a long time ago for some guy named Sam... It didn't work out, and I'm still getting over it. *sniff*

 

[1still_waters]

I think 'porn' might be a bit extreme to describe what's happening in these stories.

I guess if folks can't distinguish between real life and fiction, then they shouldn't read fiction.

I'm not saying to fill your mind with smut, but if you can't decipher that the perfect guy in those books isn't real, then yeah, put the book down.

Sure I love watching Star Wars, but I know that in my real life, chances are I won't have some idea duel with the prince of darkness with my lightsabre. But it sure is a fun escape. Maybe these books should be treated the same way?

 

[seoulsearch]

I'm not so sure I feel sorry for your singleness seoul. Without that, and I might not have such awesome forum posts to read day in and day out! Sometimes, I feel like I'm alone in the CC Singles Forum addiction, because my name will pop up as the last post in every single thread... and then you come along and fix that for me!

Anyway seoul, you are by far one of the most interesting people I've met on these forums or in real life! I really can't see why you would be unattractive at all to anyone with even a slight sense of humor! Very few people are able to keep me interesting in things they write as much as you do, so if you are like this in real life whatsoever... I definitely couldn't understand a reason to dislike you! I sure hope whoever I marry is half as interesting as you are day in and day out. Life would be pretty boring otherwise, don't ya think?

Ha, DB--thanks for saying you're glad I'm single for the sake of your entertainment --just kidding!! I really appreciate your kind words... and for bearing through all my rambling thoughts!

People tell me I'm the exact same in writing, on the phone, and in person so... I guess you can say I'm consistent. I'm not sure about being interesting (your compliments are going to give me a big ego, don't you know ) but as you can see... I like to just say things as I see them... so if that's interesting to you, feel free to keep reading!

I think 'porn' might be a bit extreme to describe what's happening in these stories.

I guess if folks can't distinguish between real life and fiction, then they shouldn't read fiction.

I'm not saying to fill your mind with smut, but if you can't decipher that the perfect guy in those books isn't real, then yeah, put the book down.

Sure I love watching Star Wars, but I know that in my real life, chances are I won't have some idea duel with the prince of darkness with my lightsabre. But it sure is a fun escape. Maybe these books should be treated the same way?

Hi Still,

I can't claim to be an expert on these types of genres but my high school boyfriend's mom had stacks and stacks of these books (Harlequin, etc.) lying around the house--after paging through a few of them, it was just my own observation that the encounters written in them were pretty much what you'd see in an R-or much-stronger rated movie, except in graphic language that was written instead of visual, and had a supposed plot and purpose to somehow justify all the naked shenanigans.

I guess this is why I always found it interesting... that graphic, visual porn is condemned in the Christian world, but things such as this somehow seem to "slide by", which, from what I've observed, are just as bad and contribute to just as much dissatisfaction in relationships but somehow seem to be glossed over.

Maybe I'm being too judgmental... but most all of us have had experiences in which they've seen things they shouldn't have... and the scenes in a lot of these books would rival and sometimes top anything one might see on a screen.

(Hopefully, I am not somehow inadvertently encouraging people do run out and "research" these books for the sake of the thread!)