Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

Inquisitor · Mar 10, 2023

Most here have a dispensational view of The Revelation of Christ. That is the view i grew up with. Which can mean a pre mid or post tribulation timing of rapture.
I hold to the view Jesus will return .. but The Revelation of Christ was written to the people of that day . Long story short it shows what God did to the temple way of life unto those who had Jesus crucified . I believe the Olivet Discourse was a prophesy of what was to come at the end of that generation. To my understanding When Jesus said "this generation" He was speaking to that generation. The blood sacrifices stopped about 70 AD. Most here do not agree wiht my thoughts i do not believe it is what we call a "salvation issue."

There is much more but i am not good at putting my head and spirit into words. To me there are many different issues , sides, dogmas, we Christians can discuss fuss over differ and still be followers of Christ.

I agree with you.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 10, 2023

MessengerofTruth said:

Right. And the word "must" (which I put in BLUE ^ in your post), Greek word "G1163" being/meaning: "behooves / necessary / what is absolutely necessary," speaking of the things that He will "TO SHOW" (1:1) which starts in verse 4:1 ("SHOW")... i.e. the "future" aspects of the Book...

...and that "must [G1163]" word in verse 1:1 (not to mention also used in 4:1) is the same word used in Mark 8:31, for example.
See that verse. = )

Berean Standard Bible
Then He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and after three days rise again.

Berean Literal Bible
And He began to teach them that it is necessary for the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again.

King James Bible
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

MessengerofTruth · Mar 10, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

So, do you believe that the things in Revelation have or have not been fulfilled?

MessengerofTruth · Mar 10, 2023

MessengerofTruth said:

Never mind, it was answered in an earlier post.

cv5 · Mar 10, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

That Greek term SHOW G1166 used 8X in the book of Revelation. Seven times pertaining to something to happen prophetically yet future.

G1166 - deiknyō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

Rev 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew G1166 unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew G1166 thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev 22:6
And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew G1166 unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 17:1
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew G1166 unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Rev 21:9
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew G1166 thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Rev 21:10
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed G1166 me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Rev 22:1
And he shewed G1166 me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 10, 2023

cv5 said:

That Greek term SHOW G1166 used 8X in the book of Revelation. Seven times pertaining to something to happen prophetically yet future.

G1166 - deiknyō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

RIGHTEO!

Beckie · Mar 10, 2023

MessengerofTruth said:

I get that...
The Reveling of Christ shows His power, HIs Glory, His vengeance, His majesty His justice His righteousness His omnipotence His love . To me the book is not about an antichrist it mentions it is about Him our Lord and Saviour

HeIsHere · Mar 10, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Future from when it was written, which was before 70 AD

MessengerofTruth · Mar 10, 2023

Beckie said:

I agree. I do believe that the main thrust is to be a warning to the saints.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 10, 2023

HeIsHere said:

"Future" from "the things WHICH ARE" [chpts 2-3] which things themselves, in those chpts, are NOT said of THEM that they are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (as are the things "future" to them [i.e. "AFTER THESE"] which ARE said "must" take place/come to pass in quickness [noun]... that is, the things from 4:1+ to His Second Coming to the earth in Rev19 [that's the "IN QUICKNESS" i.e. "7-yr period" leading UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19--the "future," specific, LIMITED time-period, commonly called "the tribulation period"]).

IOW, they (chpts 4-19) are not describing things which take place immediateLY / SOON / shortLY [ADVERBS] (as the Preterists insist), but rather "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" Rev1:1 ["TO SHOW UNTO", see "SHOW" in 4:1]
("AVENGE in quickness" and "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR feet in quickness" as other passages say--neither have taken place as of yet);

... and they are not describing things which would unfold over the course of some near-2000 years (as the Historicists insist).

[and this perfectly AGREES with the "SEQUENCE ISSUES" of the Olivet Discourse, already talked about in previous posts in this thread = ) ]

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 10, 2023

MessengerofTruth said:

Per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1, the things from 4:1 TO Christ's RETURN to the earth at Rev19 (ALL of THAT) is yet to take place.

[Rev4:4 / 5:9 shows the "24 elders" UP THERE (wearing "stephanous/crowns" and sitting on "thrones"), saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." and that's BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13 / Rev5:6) by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of that specific, future, LIMITED time-period we call "the Trib" (7-yrs)]

Radius · Mar 11, 2023

MessengerofTruth said:

While the two descriptions sound similar, they are not the same event. The trumpet of resurrection and the trumpet judgments are two different events, which happen at different times, though both involve the use of a trumpet. In fact, these are very different trumpets.

First, the trumpet referenced in 1Corinthians 15 is one of the trumpets traditionally blown during the Jewish feast of Rosh Hashanah (also called the Feast of Trumpets for that reason). The last trump is a well-known Jewish phrase of Paul's day referring to the final trumpet blown at this feast. Rosh Hashanah observance involves blowing a series of trumpets at the feast each year. During the ceremony, there are a series of short trumpet sounds which conclude with one, long trumpet blast called the tekiah gedolah, which means “the great trumpet blast.” This is the trumpet Paul was describing in 1Corinthians 15, and it announces the resurrection of the Church.

Paul was intimating that the feast of Rosh Hashanah pictures the Rapture of the Church. All seven feasts on the Jewish calendar picture aspects of God's redemptive plan, starting with Passover and ending with the Feast of Tabernacles. The Feast of Rosh Hashanah pictures the moment of the Church's resurrection (also called the Rapture), which is why a trumpet is blown during the feast. That tekiah gedolah is a prophetic picture of the trumpet that will blow at the Church's resurrection.

On the other hand, the trumpets of the seven Trumpet Judgments are announcement blown by angels in Heaven during the latter half of Tribulation. They are signals to warn unbelievers of impending judgment. These judgments will be the final opportunities for unbelievers on Earth in Tribulation to be saved before the final wrath of God poured out on earth in the Bowl Judgments.

Adstar · Mar 11, 2023

Lori said:

I am a post tribber..

First you say this:::

The you make this claim:::

You cannot have an open mind and at the same time state that post trib doesn't hold water.. You have made you mind up already.. and you believe the post tribulation rapture belief does not hold water....

We are not subject to Gods Wrath.. But we are subject to tribulation in this world.. We shall be tribulated by the followers of satan who will persecute us.. In this world we shall have tribulation but be of good cheer because Jesus has overcome this world..

No.. This post trib believer does not believe followers of Christ should be worried about the wrath of God.. But we should note the tribulation that people can inflict upon us.. Even unto death..

Not when you have Angels protecting you and even lifting you up so as to stop you from hurting your toe against a missed rock..

(Psalms 91:1-12) "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. {2} I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. {3} Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. {4} He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. {5} Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; {6} Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. {7} A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. {8} Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. {9} Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; {10} There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. {11} For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. {12} They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

Ruby123 · Mar 11, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Hi Ruby123,

The Hebrew word "shemittah [H8059]" (and meaning "release") is used 5x in the OT:

--Deut15:1, 2[2x], 9; 31:10

--in Deut31:10, it looks like this:
הַשְּׁמִטָּ֖ה
haš-šə-miṭ-ṭāh ['of the release']

--so, in Deut15:1, it says:
"At the end H7093 of every seven H7651 years H8141 thou shalt make H6213 a release H8059 "

--BibleHub points one also to Exodus 21:1-11 and Leviticus 25:1-7

Now, please allow me (in efforts to answering your question in a somewhat round-about way, or at least getting toward that end) to place a few of my thoughts in somewhat of a bullet-point list, and (not trying to be "tricky" or anything, I'm just wanting you to let ME know if you think any of what I'm putting might align with the subject of your question--please help ME out, if you can):

[some of this will be a repeat, so my apologies, but I feel it's necessary to state in this way...]

--the "7-yr trib" [seals / trumpets / vials] falls within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, per Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1... in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" (chpts 2-3) which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" as THESE are said to do;
The "SEALS" at the START of the "7-yr" period are EQUIVALENT to "the beginning of birth PANGS" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 and Paul speaks of the "KICK-OFF" i.e. INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" / the ARRIVAL of it, in both 1Th5:1-3 as well as in 2Th2:3b,6,8a,9a ("whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME--corresponding to Daniel 9:27a[,26b "prince THAT SHALL COME / IS COMING"], aka SEAL #1 at the START of the "7-yrs"... exactly the person Jesus is speaking of in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]");

--Rev8:1-5 is describing things in association with "the Day of Atonement [i.e. Yom Kippur]" (a Hebrew calendar date falling in our Sept/Oct)...It speaks also of the "silence in heaven about the space of half an hour"... and verse 13 speaks of Trumpets 5, 6 and 7 (the "3 Woes")... connecting "Trumpet #5 / 1st Woe unto the earth" (both here and elsewhere in Rev) with the MID-trib point, as I see the texts saying (so, MID-trib in proximity to the afore-mentioned date on a calendar);

--Matt24:36 (and parallels) "knoweth [perfect indicative] no man" (not saying they'll NEVER know) is speaking of His Second Coming to the earth , per CONTEXT (Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13[,9 (elect of Israel)])... so NOT speaking of "our Rapture/SNATCH [IN THE AIR]" point in time... so if this is an "idiom" as many suggest (referring to "Rosh Hashanah / Feast of Trumpets"), the supposed idiom is not speaking of "our Rapture" time-slot anyway... And I tend to believe it would NOT be speaking of "Rosh Hashanah / FoTr"... but perhaps a different "New Moon"!! YES, I see THAT as more likely... (ex. Numb10:1-10 makes it sound as though "trumpets [or trumpet]" is sounded on EVERY new moon [i.e. EVERY month]... ); So "GREAT" trumpet (in the passages I listed in this section) could very well take place at the beginning of a month... ("ROSH" of a different month, instead of "Tishri')...
[the "pro" (versus "con") of this, is that there are exactly "2520 days" between" such (in certain "sets of seven years")... where as, from "RH / FoTr" to _____ [i.e. fall-to-fall], there never is... if that makes sense; And I am one who sees the various "time-stamps" and timing-indicators abundantly scattered throughout Revelation, as CONNECTING to actual [biblically-pertinent] calendar dates, rather than RANDOM dates on a calendar... without going into the specifics in this already-too-long post

One example though, which I've mentioned before: "kings [went/]go out to battle" at a very specific time/ calendar-date (think: Rev19); etc etc];

--I do believe "our Rapture" takes place pretty much LOCK-STEP WITH [that is, just preceding] the INITIAL moments of the "7-yr period" (which "7-yr" trib period's "KICK-OFF" point / STARTING point is SEAL #1 / Matt24:4-Mk13:5 / the "man of sin BE REVEALED" [which is NOT at the LATER moment when he does the 2Th2:4b "SITTETH" thing] / that is, the "KICK-OFF" point of the "7-yr period" is Dan9:27a[,26b / 2Th2:9a!] --"our Rapture" will have PRECEDED that! [lock-step... but THAT SEQUENCE, per Paul's repeating THAT VERY SEQUENCE 3x in 2Th2, agreeing with all other texts on this Subject])

Having said all this... help me out, Ruby123!! [lol]... Are you seeing that any of what I've put (re: my viewpoint ^ which is only a snippet, believe it or not

... just enough to show the basic "outline" of the time-line, here ^ )... does this ^ , in your understanding, resemble such a "time-line" [outline] that could be said to "LOOK LIKE" what either some folks are labeling as a "shemittah" or what Scripture itself calls a "shemittah" (top of this post) or perhaps your understanding of what a "shemittah" is?
I can't say I'm sure one way or another... at least, as far as what some others are calling a "shemittah".

[like I said in another post, I am confident that Dan12 is saying that "the WISE [of Israel, per context, which is DURING the future Trib yrs, when they come to faith in Christ] WILL UNDERSTAND," that this "UNDERSTAND" thing will INCLUDE the timing-issues specifically spelled out IN THAT TEXT, which [believing-]Israel (those having come to faith IN that time-period, the Trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture") will be UNIQUELY-QUALIFED to "grasp [/understand]," at a time when there will be great deception!
[I believe Matt25:40,45's "the least of these My brethren" speaks of these, among other passages--and those "of the nationS" will either be called "ye BLESSED" by our Lord, or "ye CURSED," based on their having either "blessed" them themselves, or hadn't, DURING THE TRIB YRS (see the OT connection to "BLESS" or "CURSE" regarding this very matter)]

Hello TDW, thanks for your reply. This is way too above me. I only heard/learnt of the rapture and endtimes in 2019. My knowledge is minute. I have watched a few videos on you tube though and have never read the book of revelations only parts. I keep things simple and ask God as I am so fed up with the many different answers each person claiming they are right and everybody else who disagrees with them is hearing from the devil (not saying that about you btw, you always seem to be respectful to others) I have received a few dreams concerning the end times which I believe are from God, although I dont quite understand some of them.

I know it is risky to believe in dreams as they may not be from God but he seems to communicate to me alot by dreams. About 20 or so of my personal ones have come to pass. That is all but one so far. Anyways why I asked about the shemittah is alot of people say that the rapture must happen at the beginning of the shemittah. If it does not happen sometime this year then it could only happen in 2029/30 or 2036/37 etc. Is that true?

cv5 · Mar 11, 2023

Radius said:

"While the two descriptions sound similar, they are not the same event."
DEFINITELY. In fact they are radically dissimilar and one has nothing whatsoever to do with the other. Because of the simple fact that the Revelation judgement trumpets can and will never affect the already raptured Church.

Many Messianic Jews hold to this Rosh Hashanah interpretation. And yes, the Moedim/miqra/rehearsals are metronomic of all major Biblical prophetic events.

As for me I am not entirely convinced of this. Yet. There are certain issues that need to be resolved IMO. Needs further study. But the fact of the Moedim being fulfilled in terms of the CHURCH ie Pentecost (and not exclusively for Israel) makes the Rosh Hashanah a possible candidate IMO.

We do know that the trumpet is definitely NOT any Revelation judgment trumpet. The posties get the whole shebang wrong, including that.

During the ceremony, there are a series of short trumpet sounds which conclude with one, long trumpet blast called the tekiah gedolah, which means “the great trumpet blast.” This is the trumpet Paul was describing in 1Corinthians 15, and it announces the resurrection of the Church.

cv5 · Mar 11, 2023

MessengerofTruth said:

More properly stated an exhortation to the saved in the Churches and warning to those nominal unsaved pew potatoes.
These passages reside ONLY in Revelation chapters 2 & 3. The rapture has taken place by Rev ch 4. Church is seen in heaven (typified as the 24 elders) in Rev chapters 4 & 5, described in unerring detail as the one and only CHURCH.

But you have failed to mention the radical rapid cataclysmic destruction of the planet/biosphere/animals/plants/seas. And the near extinction-level event for the race of men. Why is it that historicists ignore and gloss over this.....shall we say.....ENTIRELY SIGNIFICANT major theme?

Mat 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:37
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be

cv5 · Mar 11, 2023

Radius said:

The way I see it, the Day of Atonement aka Yom Kippur is undoubtedly specified in these passages:

Hos 5:14
For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
Hos 5:15
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Hos 6:1
Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

This Yom Kippur (repentance of Israel) event is followed by God tabernacling with men (Feast of Tabernacles).

So what occurs for 7 contiguous years before "they (Israel) acknowledge their offence" (which occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation)?

cv5 · Mar 11, 2023

cv5 said:

A few more additional proof passages pertaining to the repentance of Israel and their receiving of their Savior and Lord at the time of the SC. There are many more.....

Luk 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Zec 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Isa 12:1
And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me.
Isa 12:4
And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.
Isa 25:9
And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

GaryA · Mar 12, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Revelation 15:

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Revelation 10:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

In neither case is it referring to a chronological start-and-finish type of 'complete'; rather, it is a 'totality' + 'achieve' type of 'complete'. And, there is no 'start'; neither is there the 'finish' that goes with the 'start'. (Thus, the chronology aspect - which is not present in the word.)

The 'Wrath of God' and the 'mystery of God' are both "self-contained" with regard to the word (G5055); neither is the 'end' of anything. (in a series of things)

The way you are trying to use the word in the first example does not even fit the second example. The 'mystery of God' is not the last [some number of items] in a list of things being 'completed' in the sense you refer to in the other example. It simply does not fit.

Don't just stop at the first nice-sounding word you come to that fits your intent - read the whole definition. (And, in this case, the definition of the word it came from.)

Doing so should help you gain a better understanding of the proper "sense" of the word.

TheDivineWatermark said:

Guess again...

The 'Vials' are the 'Wrath of God' in a "self-contained" unit that is described/indicated in 'event' terms - nothing more and nothing less.

GaryA · Mar 12, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

The 1290/1335 days at the end of Daniel 12 are referring to the time it took to "cleanse the temple" and "get it back into operation" after it was "polluted" in 167 B.C.

There is nothing about it that is future to us.

Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

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