Applying God's Word to Politics

[studier]

Cool, show me what you use for translations of the Bible in different languages. I'm curious. And i'd like to hear it from you because the major is too biased, but very fun, in this conversation. lol

The screenshot is of my favorite software I've been using for decades. It was and remains for some a favorite of others for its simplicity for doing language analysis. The left screen is all the instances a quick search shows the instance of the Hebrew word. The middle screen is showing the Hebrew, the Greek and some English translations I have selected. The right screen is showing the parsing and lexical definition of the Greek (LXX) word.

I have 2 others I work with to get used to them because this one is no longer supported. Logos | The Most Complete Bible Study Platform and Home - Accordance

 

[Eli1]

The screenshot is of my favorite software I've been using for decades. It was and remains for some a favorite of others for its simplicity for doing language analysis. The left screen is all the instances a quick search shows the instance of the Hebrew word. The middle screen is showing the Hebrew, the Greek and some English translations I have selected. The right screen is showing the parsing and lexical definition of the Greek (LXX) word.

I have 2 others I work with to get used to them because this one is no longer supported. Logos | The Most Complete Bible Study Platform and Home - Accordance

View attachment 271616

Looks like a nice program. Thanks for sharing.
So, question.
Actually before i ask the question i wanted to tell you that i realize that the word in English is "murder".
The follow up question is how do you know that the translation from the Jewish or Greek is the most closely aligned to an English word?
Can you explain that to me? How does the program tell you that?

 

[GWH]

10 commandments.

View attachment 271614

I guess vrasesh is the same as ( vrasje murder, killing, homicide, kill, sleep, dispatch ) that I found online?

Okay, what is the Albanian for GN 9:6 and EX 21:15?

Actually, it is the fact that killing as right/just punishment is commanded in those passages which determines that the correct understanding of whatever word is used in EX 20:13 must logically be "murder" or unjustified killing.

 

[Eli1]

I guess vrasesh is the same as ( vrasje murder, killing, homicide, kill, sleep, dispatch ) that I found online?

It is NOT the same bro. Hahah. There is no word "murder" in Albanian. It's only "kill".

Okay, what is the Albanian for GN 9:6 and EX 21:15?

GN 9:6 : Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Albanian version: Cilido që derdh gjakun e një njeriu, gjaku i tij do të derdhet nga një njeri, sepse Perëndia e ka krijuar njeriun simbas shëmbëlltyrës së tij.

This is a 100% correct translation with nothing lost nothing gained. No cultural differences here basically.

EX: 21:15 Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death .

Albanian version: Kush rreh atin ose nënën e tij do të dënohet me vdekje .

The only difference in this version is that the word "attack" is not "attack" in Albanian but "beating".
This is essentially the same thing so no cultural differences here.

What's your point? That you want to make a distinction between "good" kills and "wrong" kills.
Yeah, enjoy the English language then. For Albanians it's only "kills" in the vocabulary and the moral implication is silent.
Because we know that we killed a person who was going to kill more people. Not murder. Kill!

 

[maxwel]

The screenshot is of my favorite software I've been using for decades. It was and remains for some a favorite of others for its simplicity for doing language analysis. The left screen is all the instances a quick search shows the instance of the Hebrew word. The middle screen is showing the Hebrew, the Greek and some English translations I have selected. The right screen is showing the parsing and lexical definition of the Greek (LXX) word.

I have 2 others I work with to get used to them because this one is no longer supported. Logos | The Most Complete Bible Study Platform and Home - Accordance

View attachment 271616

Your bible is plumb full o' squiggles like it's written by a drunken sailor. You need yourself a good Bible written in American like God intended.

.

 

[studier]

Looks like a nice program. Thanks for sharing.
So, question.
Actually before i ask the question i wanted to tell you that i realize that the word in English is "murder".
The follow up question is how do you know that the translation from the Jewish or Greek is the most closely aligned to an English word?
Can you explain that to me? How does the program tell you that?

The Hebrew and Greek Lexicons do a historical analysis of how the words are used in the Text and in other historical writings. There are several Lexicons for each language. I have many of them in this system. You can see the one on the right screen and at the bottom the heading for another. At times, maybe many times, they get us close, but we can tell a different English synonymous word or phrase may add clarity. As I said, it's not a one for one science as the example you provided is comparable.

The issue I noticed in Seminary and spoke to my language professor about is that these Lexicons at times will take liberties and put theological conclusions in. So, it's back to doing word searches in the Text and trying to determine how God uses the word.

There are also tools like these TLG - Home and Perseus Digital Library

There are also tools like these you may know of: Bible Study Tools I don't use them much unless someone else is referring to them or I might point to something easy to access that may be useful to them.

Sometimes this comes in handy: Etymonline - Online Etymology Dictionary

 

[studier]

Yeah, enjoy the English language then. For Albanians it's only "kills" in the vocabulary and the moral implication is silent.

But the moral implication of the hero cop you wrote the example of, even though he killed a potential or actual killer, there is surely a difference, correct?

 

[GWH]

It is NOT the same bro. Hahah. There is no word "murder" in Albanian. It's only "kill".



GN 9:6 : Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Albanian version: Cilido që derdh gjakun e një njeriu, gjaku i tij do të derdhet nga një njeri, sepse Perëndia e ka krijuar njeriun simbas shëmbëlltyrës së tij.

This is a 100% correct translation with nothing lost nothing gained. No cultural differences here basically.

EX: 21:15 Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death .

Albanian version: Kush rreh atin ose nënën e tij do të dënohet me vdekje .

The only difference in this version is that the word "attack" is not "attack" in Albanian but "beating".
This is essentially the same thing so no cultural differences here.

What's your point? That you want to make a distinction between "good" kills and "wrong" kills.
Yeah, enjoy the English language then. For Albanians it's only "kills" in the vocabulary and the moral implication is silent.
Because we know that we killed a person who was going to kill more people. Not murder. Kill!

My point is this: it is the fact that killing as right/just punishment is commanded in those passages but condemned as wrong in EX 20:13 which logically determines that the correct understanding of whatever word is used in EX 20:13 must logically be "murder" or unjustified killing, so there should be no moral equivalence.

 

[studier]

Your bible is plumb full o' squiggles like it's written by a drunken sailor. You need yourself a good Bible written in American like God intended.

.

Spoken like a true American! And we can ignore where English was first used. It speaks funny anyway. Maybe I should add a bunch of other foreign translations to the center screen and make it even more fun! But it's tough enough dealing with just the 3+ I normally deal with.

 

[Eli1]

The Hebrew and Greek Lexicons do a historical analysis of how the words are used in the Text and in other historical writings. There are several Lexicons for each language. I have many of them in this system. You can see the one on the right screen and at the bottom the heading for another. At times, maybe many times, the get us close, but we can tell a different English synonymous word or phrase may add clarity. As I said, it's not a one for one science as the example you provided is comparable.

The issue I noticed in Seminary and spoke to my language professor about is that these Lexicons at times will take liberties and put theological conclusions in. So, it's back to doing word searches in the Text and trying to determine how God uses the word.

There are also tools like these TLG - Home and Perseus Digital Library

There are also tools like these you may know of: Bible Study Tools I don't use them much unless someone else is referring to them or I might point to something easy to access that may be useful to them.

Sometimes this comes in handy: Etymonline - Online Etymology Dictionary

Thank you for sharing these resources. I have added this post to my favorites so i can check them out a bit later.
I think the whole point of this exercise is to highlight a few key points which i have mentioned before in the forum:

1. If we get picky on translations we will get lost into translations and the languages themselves are not enough to describe God in His entirety which is why i made peace with many mysteries.
2. The translators of every language do an incredible job in translating the Bible because they need to be very fluid in the cultures of both countries they are trying to translate from/to.
3. In almost every language (i can't imagine what the Japanese words would be) the essence of the teachings of the Bible are captured intact which is why we have unity in Christ.
4. And fourth, the most important point. When we have complete understanding of one language and culture, there are several political, cultural and ways of life within that culture.
This means that anyone with a preconceived ideology like the trans who want to justify their lifestyles and our friend here the major who wants to justify his love of guns, are both wrong for pulling verses out of context in relation to the overall message of the Bible.

 

[maxwel]

My point is this: it is the fact that killing as right/just punishment is commanded in those passages but condemned as wrong in EX 20:13 which logically determines that the correct understanding of whatever word is used in EX 20:13 must logically be "murder" or unjustified killing, so there should be no moral equivalence.

That's my understanding as well.
Whenever God says "Do x" then later says "Don't do x", we know that since God cannot contradict himself, there must be a genuine difference in the semantics of the two statements.

Sorry guys, I haven't been following the whole thread, just noticed the last few posts.
Not really sure what's going on here.

.

 

[Eli1]

But the moral implication of the hero cop you wrote the example of, even though he killed a potential or actual killer, there is surely a difference, correct?

Of course, but the point is that the cop is a killer nonetheless. A professional killer in fact.
He's tainted because he took another human life but he is who we call to do the killing because we don't want to cross that line.
That is why the word "murder" doesn't exist in the culture.

 

[Eli1]

My point is this: it is the fact that killing as right/just punishment is commanded in those passages but condemned as wrong in EX 20:13 which logically determines that the correct understanding of whatever word is used in EX 20:13 must logically be "murder" or unjustified killing, so there should be no moral equivalence.

And my point is this: you want to justify killing because you love guns. But Jesus also said that those who live by the sword die by the sword.
You are cherry picking the Bible to support your love of guns.
The trans people also cherry pick the Bible to support their love of being trans.

 

[Eli1]

Not really sure what's going on here.

.

Maxwell this is an "old guys" coffee shop that the major and i started.
We all love God and we do a bit of "old guys" humor here and there.
We have coffee, food and beer sometimes.

 

[studier]

Sorry guys, I haven't been following the whole thread, just noticed the last few posts.
Not really sure what's going on here.

Actually, somewhat of a relaxation discussion after the reality of it earlier.

 

[studier]

Of course, but the point is that the cop is a killer nonetheless. A professional killer in fact.

Makes sense assuming your different culture. Nevertheless, he is a legitimately sanctioned killer which could have similar meaning to not a murderer.

 

[studier]

Maxwell this is an "old guys" coffee shop that the major and i started.

How old are we?

 

[maxwel]

Maxwell this is an "old guys" coffee shop that the major and i started.
We all love God and we do a bit of "old guys" humor here and there.
We have coffee, food and beer sometimes.

As I can neither confirm nor deny being an "old guy"... I may need to find the egress.
: )

.

 

[GWH]

That's my understanding as well.
Whenever God says "Do x" then later says "Don't do x", we know that since God cannot contradict himself, there must be a genuine difference in the semantics of the two statements.

Sorry guys, I haven't been following the whole thread, just noticed the last few posts.
Not really sure what's going on here.

.

Wow! It is refreshing to encounter someone who uses their God-given logical ability on CC.

Do you agree that if God says "Thou shalt not murder" in EX 20:13 and "Thou shalt murder babies" in JSH 6-11 that the former is more in line with the NT portrayal of God as all-loving? There are folks on CC who see no problem with the latter!

 

[studier]

As I can neither confirm nor deny being an "old guy"... I may need to find the egress.
: )

.

There's always spiritual maturity you can claim. But we'll be watching you like a hawk.