Applying God's Word to Politics

[GWH]

I have no problem with Christian rulers promoting moral laws. My question is whether the apostles ever instruct the church, as church, to pursue civil power as a means of advancing Christian morality. That's the specific link I'm still not seeing stated in the text.

My question has always been narrower: where do the apostles instruct the church, as church, to pursue civil authority as a means of accomplishing its mission?

I don't agree with your inference, but I do agree that we're now discussing competing inferences rather than explicit commands.

The inference I affirm is this: God ordained civil government to restrain evil (Rom. 13), and He ordained the church to preach the gospel and make disciples (Matt. 28). Therefore, Christians may serve faithfully in government and bring Christian morality into public life, but the New Testament does not assign the church itself the mission of wielding civil power.

In other words, I see cooperation without conflation.

You infer that because rulers are God's servants and Christians can be rulers, the church's mission necessarily extends into the exercise of civil power for moral ends.

I infer that because the apostles repeatedly instruct the church to preach, persuade, disciple, rebuke, and suffer, while never instructing it to pursue governmental authority, the two callings remain distinct even when exercised by the same person.

So yes, I reject your inference, but not because I deny the Spirit's role.
I reject it because I don't see the apostolic writings making the connection you do.
The Spirit and the text should harmonize, and when two believers draw different conclusions, the question becomes which inference best accounts for the whole of the New Testament.
That's where our disagreement lies.

Well, I am glad we agree on what we disagree about,
and now that you shared your affirmation, I agree with that as saying what I have been affirming all along,
except that you divorce the church's evangelistic mission from its moral mission,
which is like divorcing conversion from sanctification, whereas the apostles taught both as connected (e.g., Eph. 2:8-10).
I guess that is where the remaining disagreement lies, so what is your justification for divorcing them?

 

[GWH]

If I had to choose a threshold, I would lean toward conception rather than sentience.
Not because Scripture explicitly says, "life begins at conception," but because I do not see Scripture identifying awareness, intelligence, self-consciousness, or sentience as the basis of human value.

My concern with sentience is that it raises the question: why that threshold rather than some other level of development?
Newborns, the severely disabled, and the unconscious all possess varying degrees of awareness at different times.
Scripture appears to ground human worth in what a person is, not in what a person can presently do.

That said, I'm less confident about the exact legal threshold than I am that the unborn child is already under God's care and is treated as a personal subject in the womb.
So between our two answers, yours is more specific, while mine is more cautious.
The real question then becomes: what biblical text identifies sentience as the point at which a human being acquires civil rights? That's still the step I'd want demonstrated.

I lean toward conception as the eventual goal but sentience as more immediately attainable.
References to quickening imply sentience, which occurs about a month or two later than the onset of sentience.

The beauty of sentience is that the rationale for choosing it is scientific and disallows later stages of development.
We are talking about normal development.

I agree with your saying my answer is more specific and yours is more cautious,
which is why I encourage you to trust guidance/insights from the HS via divine logic/right reasoning,
believing you are a truthseeker, and we will find out in heaven how correct our inferences were.
If we were off by some degree regarding such didachaic issues, I am confident it will be forgiven.

 

[OMC]

Well, I am glad we agree on what we disagree about,
and now that you shared your affirmation, I agree with that as saying what I have been affirming all along,
except that you divorce the church's evangelistic mission from its moral mission,
which is like divorcing conversion from sanctification, whereas the apostles taught both as connected (e.g., Eph. 2:8-10).
I guess that is where the remaining disagreement lies, so what is your justification for divorcing them?

"You keep saying I am divorcing evangelism from morality, but that is not my position.
The apostles clearly taught both conversion and sanctification.
The question is not whether Christians should live morally, but whether the New Testament assigns the church the mission of exercising civil power to produce that morality.

Ephesians 2:8-10 actually supports my point.
The good works flow from conversion and discipleship.
Paul does not tell the church to pursue governmental authority as a means of accomplishing them.
Throughout the New Testament, the apostles call the church to preach, teach, persuade, rebuke, disciple, and exemplify holiness.
They never instruct the church, as church, to obtain civil power in order to advance its mission.

So I am not separating conversion from sanctification.
I am distinguishing between the means the apostles gave the church for promoting holiness and the means God gave civil government for restraining evil.
The issue remains the same: where do the apostles explicitly connect the church's mission to the pursuit or exercise of civil authority?"

 

[OMC]

I lean toward conception as the eventual goal but sentience as more immediately attainable.
References to quickening imply sentience, which occurs about a month or two later than the onset of sentience.

The beauty of sentience is that the rationale for choosing it is scientific and disallows later stages of development.
We are talking about normal development.

I agree with your saying my answer is more specific and yours is more cautious,
which is why I encourage you to trust guidance/insights from the HS via divine logic/right reasoning,
believing you are a truthseeker, and we will find out in heaven how correct our inferences were.
If we were off by some degree regarding such didachaic issues, I am confident it will be forgiven.

"I appreciate the tone of that, and I agree that many of these questions involve inference rather than explicit didactic statements. Where I am more cautious is that I do not see Scripture itself identifying sentience as the threshold for personhood or civil rights.
You appeal to sentience because it provides a scientifically identifiable line, but from my perspective that still leaves the biblical question unresolved.
Science may tell us when sentience appears, but science cannot tell us why sentience should be the criterion for human worth.
That is a philosophical conclusion, not a scientific one.
My concern is that once worth is tied to a measurable capacity, the debate shifts from 'What is a human being?' to 'Which capacities matter enough?'
Scripture consistently seems to ground the value of human beings in what they are as image-bearers, not in their present level of development, awareness, or function.
That is one reason I lean toward conception.
Not because I think Scripture explicitly settles every legal question, but because conception appears to be the one objective point at which a new human life begins to exist.
Sentience, quickening, viability, and other milestones all describe stages in the development of an already existing human organism.
That said, I agree with your final point.
We both want our reasoning to be governed by truth rather than preference, and where Scripture is not explicit, humility is appropriate.
We may discover in eternity that some of our inferences were stronger than others, but for now the question remains which inference best accounts for the whole biblical witness."

 

[rewriter]

Yes which is one of the numerous reason I do not support abortion.



I refrain from doing things the Lord says are sinful in His Word and I do so by the power of the Holy Spirit.



No, the Lord teaches in His Word that those walking after the flesh reap corruption.
You seem to be saying we can live in sin and still be saved. That's not scriptural.



Not true. There is a sin not unto death (separation from God)
1 John 5:17 - All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.



Romans 6:1,2
Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

That's the problem with many is they are not dead to sin and so they continue therin
That's why reformed folks keep saying it's not possible to stop living in sin because they are living in sin and not only admit it, they are proud of it!

Scripture tells us that ALL sin is an abomination. Scripture also tells us that ALL people sin, believers are not exempted. Thus, to identify a single example of sin as being worse than any other, including those that are committed by those who claim to walk by the spirit, are contradicting scripture. Then applying your standard of, well they are committing this specific sinful act, therefore they are doomed, implies that you consider yourself doomed. Otherwise, you are in the bind of, since you do not know the relationship between those who have an abortion and God, you are contradicting scripture. In fact, I have personal knowledge of an occasional anti-abortion seminar speaker and self-professed conservative evangelical Christian, who had an abortion safely after becoming a Christian, solely because she was breaking up with her fiancée and did not want to be a single mother at her age and desired future.

 

[GWH]

"You keep saying I am divorcing evangelism from morality, but that is not my position.
The apostles clearly taught both conversion and sanctification.
The question is not whether Christians should live morally, but whether the New Testament assigns the church the mission of exercising civil power to produce that morality.

Ephesians 2:8-10 actually supports my point.
The good works flow from conversion and discipleship.
Paul does not tell the church to pursue governmental authority as a means of accomplishing them.
Throughout the New Testament, the apostles call the church to preach, teach, persuade, rebuke, disciple, and exemplify holiness.
They never instruct the church, as church, to obtain civil power in order to advance its mission.

So I am not separating conversion from sanctification.
I am distinguishing between the means the apostles gave the church for promoting holiness and the means God gave civil government for restraining evil.
The issue remains the same: where do the apostles explicitly connect the church's mission to the pursuit or exercise of civil authority?"

I keep saying you should not divorce evangelism from morality because they parallel conversion and sanctification.
Eph. 2:8-10 supports not divorcing either pair.

Your straw horse claims: Paul does not tell the church to pursue governmental authority as a means of accomplishing them.
The apostles never instruct the church, as church, to obtain civil power in order to advance its mission.

The issue is: what is the inferred connection between Christians/Scripture and politics?

 

[CS1]

Scripture tells us that ALL sin is an abomination. Scripture also tells us that ALL people sin, believers are not exempted. Thus, to identify a single example of sin as being worse than any other, including those that are committed by those who claim to walk by the spirit, are contradicting scripture. Then applying your standard of, well they are committing this specific sinful act, therefore they are doomed, implies that you consider yourself doomed. Otherwise, you are in the bind of, since you do not know the relationship between those who have an abortion and God, you are contradicting scripture. In fact, I have personal knowledge of an occasional anti-abortion seminar speaker and self-professed conservative evangelical Christian, who had an abortion safely after becoming a Christian, solely because she was breaking up with her fiancée and did not want to be a single mother at her age and desired future.

no that is incorrect. And your example is the most foolish thing I have heard of a "Christian doing" one was pregnant before marriage and got an abortion because she was breaking up with her fiancée and did not want to be a single mother at her age and desired future?

Sound like she did not listen to the word of God and not shack up. And was led by some ungodly people that discipled her.

God saves from our sin he did not save us to Live in sin. We don't Identify with the world. There are not gay Christians, or Christians who hold to a sin that they were set free from.

 

[OMC]

The issue is: what is the inferred connection between Christians/Scripture and politics?

The inferred connection is that Christians are disciples of Christ in every sphere of life, including politics.

 

[ScooterJackson]

Scripture tells us that ALL sin is an abomination.

Actually it does not. There is some sin that does not cause a person to be separated from the Lord:
1 John 5:17 - All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Scripture also tells us that ALL people sin, believers are not exempted.

Scripture also instructs us to sin not. You were not aware of this?

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

Scripture also tells us that whoever sins is of the devil. You were not aware of this?

1 John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil

John 8:34 - Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1 John 3:6 - Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.

Thus, to identify a single example of sin as being worse than any other, including those that are committed by those who claim to walk by the spirit, are contradicting scripture.

Only to those that don't know scripture very well.

Then applying your standard of, well they are committing this specific sinful act, therefore they are doomed, implies that you consider yourself doomed.

I know better than that because I know what the Lord's Word teaches.

you do not know the relationship between those who have an abortion and God, you are contradicting scripture.

If they actually had a relationship with the Lord they would be being led by the Holy Spirit Who does not lead people to murder their children. Do you think the Lord is going around telling women to murder their babies? Only liberals believe that sort of thing because the "lord" they serve is actually the devil.

I have personal knowledge of an occasional anti-abortion seminar speaker and self-professed conservative evangelical Christian, who had an abortion safely after becoming a Christian, solely because she was breaking up with her fiancée and did not want to be a single mother at her age and desired future.

She's a hypocrite and does not know the Lord.
She's speaking at these seminars to earn a little filthy lucre on the side

 

[ScooterJackson]

God saves from our sin he did not save us to Live in sin.

Don't tell reformed people that, because they believe they are born sinners and can never stop sinning and claim anybody that turns away from sin is trying to earn their salvation. They're an extremely confused bunch of people.

The inferred connection is that Christians are disciples of Christ in every sphere of life, including politics.

Until they turn politics in to an idol not knowing they are supposed to be serving the Lord.

Luke 21:34
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with
surfeiting (to feed or supply to excess, to overindulge), and drunkenness, and cares
of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

 

[GWH]

Actually it does not. There is some sin that does not cause a person to be separated from the Lord:
1 John 5:17 - All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.



Scripture also instructs us to sin not. You were not aware of this?

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

Scripture also tells us that whoever sins is of the devil. You were not aware of this?

1 John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil

John 8:34 - Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1 John 3:6 - Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.




Only to those that don't know scripture very well.



I know better than that because I know what the Lord's Word teaches.



If they actually had a relationship with the Lord they would be being led by the Holy Spirit Who does not lead people to murder their children. Do you think the Lord is going around telling women to murder their babies? Only liberals believe that sort of thing because the "lord" they serve is actually the devil.



She's a hypocrite and does not know the Lord.
She's speaking at these seminars to earn a little filthy lucre on the side

You are not aware of 1John 1:8-9?

 

[rewriter]

Actually it does not. There is some sin that does not cause a person to be separated from the Lord:
1 John 5:17 - All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.



Scripture also instructs us to sin not. You were not aware of this?

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

Scripture also tells us that whoever sins is of the devil. You were not aware of this?

1 John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil

John 8:34 - Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1 John 3:6 - Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.




Only to those that don't know scripture very well.



I know better than that because I know what the Lord's Word teaches.



If they actually had a relationship with the Lord they would be being led by the Holy Spirit Who does not lead people to murder their children. Do you think the Lord is going around telling women to murder their babies? Only liberals believe that sort of thing because the "lord" they serve is actually the devil.



She's a hypocrite and does not know the Lord.
She's speaking at these seminars to earn a little filthy lucre on the side

I am so glad you know so much based on so little information. The individual I referenced has not received any money for her speaking engagements, so it is hard to see where she is earning a little "filthy lucre", but you with your great insights, must know better.

Likewise, you know so well what the Lord's Word teaches, which is why you quote so much scripture which according to scripture is not God's word. Scripture defines God's word as a living being, not recorded words.

But a challenge for you, should you dare to honestly address it. Scripture claims that the law was created for the benefit of humans, not humans for the benefit of the law, so, first why is shed blood required for the forgiveness of sin? Second, to whom is the price for
sin paid, if it is to Satan, where did he get such authority as all his authority is derived from God and why would God allow him to receive such a high price. But if it is to God, it is basically God moving money from one pocket to another and claiming that a price has been paid, which is absurd. Or do you claim that there is a third party who is receiving the exceedingly high price for sin?

And by the way, before you get too comfortable, I have been studying these issues for decades while recognizing that traditional theologies, like yours, are full of contradictions and absurdities, so I can keep lobbing extremely difficult to answer questions all day long, and retreating to a stance of, "well you are not Christian", might soothe your ego, you do not truly know enough to make such a call. ALL, including yourself, have fallen short of the glory of God and are saved only by grace, and since it is God who dispenses that grace, only God know for certain who receives it, not ANY human, not even you with your faulty assumptions that allow you to make judgements.

 

[JaumeJ]

John 18-36
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be delivered over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not from here.”

 

[ScooterJackson]

You are not aware of 1John 1:8-9?

That's speaking on sin that is on our record since we have all sinned.
God's Word literally teaches Christians are to sin not, so you're going to have to learn to rightly discern the Word of Truth

Here's a few instructional passages for you to meditate on:

1 John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil

John 8:34 - Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1 John 3:7 - Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOES righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:6 - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 5:18 - We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Galatians 5:16 - Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:24 - they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

2 Peter 1:4 - Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Peter 2:14,15 - Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Romans 6:1,2 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:7 - for he who has died hath been set free from the sin.

Romans 11:22 - Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:6 - For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:13,14 - For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

2 Timothy 2:21 - If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Romans 12:1 - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

James 1:22 - Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves

 

[GWH]

That's speaking on sin that is on our record since we have all sinned.
God's Word literally teaches Christians are to sin not, so you're going to have to learn to rightly discern the Word of Truth

Here's a few instructional passages for you to meditate on:

1 John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil

John 8:34 - Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1 John 3:7 - Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOES righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:6 - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 5:18 - We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Galatians 5:16 - Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:24 - they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

2 Peter 1:4 - Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Peter 2:14,15 - Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Romans 6:1,2 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:7 - for he who has died hath been set free from the sin.

Romans 11:22 - Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:6 - For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:13,14 - For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

2 Timothy 2:21 - If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Romans 12:1 - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

James 1:22 - Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves

The verses you quote from the Word of Truth indicate that Christians desire to become morally perfect,
NOT that they attain it in this life--not even Paul (Phil. 3:12).

You might learn to discern that meaning if you did not omit 1John 1:8-9,
but it requires rightly harmonizing those verses, which is easy if you are willing to learn.
(Hint: read the NIV :^)