Are biblical dietary laws related directly to the Gentile/Jew division?

[UnitedWithChrist]

I don't know much about any Judaizer beliefs. I only know what my research reveals to me. One thing I have learned is that even though there are several "Christian Cults" that claim they are the only one's who are right, they all have one thing in common. There is always some sort of doctrinal belief that they have adopted that is actually correct. Just because they are a cult doesn't mean they are wrong in every doctrinal belief they adopt. I am not giving them credit here I am just stating an observation.
even in this day and time things like pork no matter how clean a pig is raised can still smell nasty when it is cooking in a frying pan. So I would say that both views have value.

Are you telling me that you have never studied or listened to any arguments from Judaizers like Herbert Armstrong or any of the "Church of God" cults such as United Church of God, Restored Church of God, Living Church of God or Church of God International?

I would actually bet money that you have listened to the teachings of some Church of God group because you agree with at least two of their odd teachings. Clean/unclean meats and soul sleep are the two I've noted.

You see, I have learned that guys who claim they got their understanding from their own unbiased research, without referring to other sources of information are not acknowledging the source of their indoctrination.

I am familiar enough with the teachings on those points to recognize their arguments.

So, I ask you, have you ever read any of Herbert Armstrong's booklets or heard any of his teachings? Or, the teachings of the Church of God groups that still follow his teachings? These include United Church of God, Church of God International, Restored Church of God or Living Church of God. There's probably about 150 others that descended from them.

And, concerning these groups being correct on certain doctrines, they use dubious teachings in order to attract people into their cult. My Armstrongite pastor said that these sorts of things are the worm that covers the hook...particularly prophecy. Some poor, self-righteous soul who thinks God has called him to straighten out the Church will latch onto one of those doctrines, and the cult will reel him in like a fish.

Soul sleep, annihilationism, postmortem salvation, and prophecy are four likely candidates with Armstrongites. This is because just about everyone has lost a relative that was unsaved, so they want some assurance that person isn't suffering eternal punishment now. So, they are very susceptible to being drawn in by Armstrongites because they teach that eternal torment is false.

 

[massorite]

Are you telling me that you have never studied or listened to any arguments from Judaizers like Herbert Armstrong or any of the "Church of God" cults such as United Church of God, Restored Church of God, Living Church of God or Church of God International?

I would actually bet money that you have listened to the teachings of some Church of God group because you agree with at least two of their odd teachings. Clean/unclean meats and soul sleep are the two I've noted.

You see, I have learned that guys who claim they got their understanding from their own unbiased research, without referring to other sources of information are not acknowledging the source of their indoctrination.

I am familiar enough with the teachings on those points to recognize their arguments.

So, I ask you, have you ever read any of Herbert Armstrong's booklets or heard any of his teachings? Or, the teachings of the Church of God groups that still follow his teachings? These include United Church of God, Church of God International, Restored Church of God or Living Church of God. There's probably about 150 others that descended from them.

And, concerning these groups being correct on certain doctrines, they use dubious teachings in order to attract people into their cult. My Armstrongite pastor said that these sorts of things are the worm that covers the hook...particularly prophecy. Some poor, self-righteous soul who thinks God has called him to straighten out the Church will latch onto one of those doctrines, and the cult will reel him in like a fish.

Soul sleep, annihilationism, postmortem salvation, and prophecy are four likely candidates with Armstrongites. This is because just about everyone has lost a relative that was unsaved, so they want some assurance that person isn't suffering eternal punishment now. So, they are very susceptible to being drawn in by Armstrongites because they teach that eternal torment is false.

Yes I am. I was raised up going to Catholic and Episcopal churches and we didn't attend those churches very often. Once when I was very my parents enrolled my brother and I in an Episcopal school and I was an alter boy at the church. I remember that I used to feel something special whenever I was up there doing the alter boy thing but I never realized what it was I was feeling until I was actually saved and baptized in the true sense. Only then did I realize that it was the Holy Spirit that I was feeling up there at the alter and it wasn't about the Episcopal church, it was about God revealing Himself to me at a very early age. I think I was about 8 and I remember when they announced to everybody that RFK had been killed when I was sitting in class.
After that there was a lot of bad stuff that happened in my life and even though I remember some stuff most of it is a blur until 1969 when we moved to Georgia. School was very boring because the school system was two years behind that of California so I joined the service in 1970 ten days before I turned 18. I got out of the service in 1973, moved up to the mountains of Georgia and got baptized in a Church of Christ. At that point I had no idea about any denominational differences between churches. I thought church was church and they were all the same. I am one of those folks whom when they came up out of the water I was filled with the Holy Spirit and I had this powerful Love for everybody in sight.
Right away God put it into my heart to study the Bible but given my ignorance I had no idea that there were such a thing as a Bible dictionary and nobody at that church ever informed me any different, so all I had was a Webster's Dictionary.
Soon after I started reading the Bible and continuing to go to that Church of Christ and I found that what they were trying to teach me about the Bible and their doctrinal beliefs was totally wrong according to what I was reading. They tried to teach me that the "Lord's Prayer" was obsolete, that using musical instruments in church was bad and that doing miracles died out with the apostle's.
Being as ignorant as I was about doctrinal differences and after the Holy Spirit brought innocents back into my life I tried to have discussion with them about what they were trying to teaching me and trying to use what it said in the bible to do it.
Man let me tell you that those folks began to hate me in short order and one time an old lady came into the church, sat down a few feet away from me and turned and looked a me with her face all snared up and she growled at me. LOL that was the first time I ever saw a demon in a person.
Anyways those folks started treating me so bad that I got a hard church hurt and I walked away from God at that point. I had decided that if that was what Christianity was all about I did want no part of it.
Twenty Two years later in 1996 my life was in shambles, I was an alcoholic and a doper and my life was headed to a hard crash. I knew I needed to do something so I began to reach out to God and started reading the Bible again and drinking my beer. I picked a Baptist church to start going to but I would still drink 3 or more tall beers before I got to the church every Sunday.
Then one night I had a dream and when I woke up I was delivered from alcoholism and refilled with the Holy Spirit once more. I found a nondenominational church to attend and God picked up where I left off and once again put this unquenchable desire to research and study the word of God and I have been hard at it ever since. I have written three books but two of them went out of print because the so called Christian publisher mismanaged their money and went under after Xerox confiscated $500,000 in leased printing equipment. I spent 8 years on the book of Revelation, 3 years on the early church doctrinal beliefs and event for the first 300 year and 4 years on researching and studying the Quran and Islam. The only book I have left on the market is the book on Islam.
So yes have never been influenced by any cult, school of thinking, bible collage or anything else. All I have ever studied from is the Word Of God. The book I wrote on Islam is about comparing the Bile to the Quran and reaching out to Muslims.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Yes I am. I was raised up going to Catholic and Episcopal churches and we didn't attend those churches very often. Once when I was very my parents enrolled my brother and I in an Episcopal school and I was an alter boy at the church. I remember that I used to feel something special whenever I was up there doing the alter boy thing but I never realized what it was I was feeling until I was actually saved and baptized in the true sense. Only then did I realize that it was the Holy Spirit that I was feeling up there at the alter and it wasn't about the Episcopal church, it was about God revealing Himself to me at a very early age. I think I was about 8 and I remember when they announced to everybody that RFK had been killed when I was sitting in class.
After that there was a lot of bad stuff that happened in my life and even though I remember some stuff most of it is a blur until 1969 when we moved to Georgia. School was very boring because the school system was two years behind that of California so I joined the service in 1970 ten days before I turned 18. I got out of the service in 1973, moved up to the mountains of Georgia and got baptized in a Church of Christ. At that point I had no idea about any denominational differences between churches. I thought church was church and they were all the same. I am one of those folks whom when they came up out of the water I was filled with the Holy Spirit and I had this powerful Love for everybody in sight.
Right away God put it into my heart to study the Bible but given my ignorance I had no idea that there were such a thing as a Bible dictionary and nobody at that church ever informed me any different, so all I had was a Webster's Dictionary.
Soon after I started reading the Bible and continuing to go to that Church of Christ and I found that what they were trying to teach me about the Bible and their doctrinal beliefs was totally wrong according to what I was reading. They tried to teach me that the "Lord's Prayer" was obsolete, that using musical instruments in church was bad and that doing miracles died out with the apostle's.
Being as ignorant as I was about doctrinal differences and after the Holy Spirit brought innocents back into my life I tried to have discussion with them about what they were trying to teaching me and trying to use what it said in the bible to do it.
Man let me tell you that those folks began to hate me in short order and one time an old lady came into the church, sat down a few feet away from me and turned and looked a me with her face all snared up and she growled at me. LOL that was the first time I ever saw a demon in a person.
Anyways those folks started treating me so bad that I got a hard church hurt and I walked away from God at that point. I had decided that if that was what Christianity was all about I did want no part of it.
Twenty Two years later in 1996 my life was in shambles, I was an alcoholic and a doper and my life was headed to a hard crash. I knew I needed to do something so I began to reach out to God and started reading the Bible again and drinking my beer. I picked a Baptist church to start going to but I would still drink 3 or more tall beers before I got to the church every Sunday.
Then one night I had a dream and when I woke up I was delivered from alcoholism and refilled with the Holy Spirit once more. I found a nondenominational church to attend and God picked up where I left off and once again put this unquenchable desire to research and study the word of God and I have been hard at it ever since. I have written three books but two of them went out of print because the so called Christian publisher mismanaged their money and went under after Xerox confiscated $500,000 in leased printing equipment. I spent 8 years on the book of Revelation, 3 years on the early church doctrinal beliefs and event for the first 300 year and 4 years on researching and studying the Quran and Islam. The only book I have left on the market is the book on Islam.
So yes have never been influenced by any cult, school of thinking, bible collage or anything else. All I have ever studied from is the Word Of God. The book I wrote on Islam is about comparing the Bile to the Quran and reaching out to Muslims.

Interesting story.

Church of Christ is actually a cult. Alexander Campbell claimed that all other churches before him were corrupt, and he was restoring the true gospel. He claimed that you had to be baptized by a Campbellite pastor in order to be truly saved. Funny thing is, he himself was never baptized by a Campbellite pastor.

There was a group of cultic Campbellite people on this site who tried to convert others to their belief. One of those beliefs would be that a person isn't forgiven for their sins until they are baptized. They claim that the person makes contact with the literal blood of Jesus in the water. Like you mentioned, they claim also that the Holy Spirit isn't received by current day Christians because there are no apostles today, and laying on of hands conveyed the Holy Spirit.

Modern day Campbellites still exist amongst the Church of Christ people, but most have moved away from their teachings and have a lesser case of Campbellite doctrines.

Campbellites believe, in essence, that they are the only true Christians, so they are very cultic.

Perhaps you belonged to a Campbellite church. There are tons of videos on the errors of Campbellite (Church of Christ) churches on Youtube. Only problem is that some of the apologists against them are almost as ignorant as them.

It sounds like you believe some of their teachings still, though. For instance, the hatred of denominations is part of the Campbellite mentality. Campbellites only believe in local church authority for this very reason. They do not cooperate in terms of missionary work with other churches usually, because they are rabidly anti-denominational.

Cults are often like that, too. They will claim that denominations are false, but define themselves as the true church. They are not a denomination, but they are the true church, in their minds. And, non-denominational churches have the same mentality. In fact, non denominational churches can be far more heretical than denominational churches. They just want to fly under the radar screen by using non-denominationalism as an excuse for their rejection of Christian teaching as a whole.

Better watch out for that.

You've provoked my interest and I will likely watch a few more videos on Campbellites. I suspect that is what you were involved with.

For those who don't know, Duck Dynasty guys go to a Church of Christ church. I don't know if they are Campbellites or not. But, a lot of Church of Christ people basically believe in baptismal regeneration. They think baptism is what regenerates a person, instead of an act of the Holy Spirit prior to baptism. Evangelicals believe that baptism is an important testimony to one's faith, but the faith is already active prior to baptism, and baptism does not save. A Campbellite claims baptism saves.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Yes I am. I was raised up going to Catholic and Episcopal churches and we didn't attend those churches very often. Once when I was very my parents enrolled my brother and I in an Episcopal school and I was an alter boy at the church. I remember that I used to feel something special whenever I was up there doing the alter boy thing but I never realized what it was I was feeling until I was actually saved and baptized in the true sense. Only then did I realize that it was the Holy Spirit that I was feeling up there at the alter and it wasn't about the Episcopal church, it was about God revealing Himself to me at a very early age. I think I was about 8 and I remember when they announced to everybody that RFK had been killed when I was sitting in class.
After that there was a lot of bad stuff that happened in my life and even though I remember some stuff most of it is a blur until 1969 when we moved to Georgia. School was very boring because the school system was two years behind that of California so I joined the service in 1970 ten days before I turned 18. I got out of the service in 1973, moved up to the mountains of Georgia and got baptized in a Church of Christ. At that point I had no idea about any denominational differences between churches. I thought church was church and they were all the same. I am one of those folks whom when they came up out of the water I was filled with the Holy Spirit and I had this powerful Love for everybody in sight.
Right away God put it into my heart to study the Bible but given my ignorance I had no idea that there were such a thing as a Bible dictionary and nobody at that church ever informed me any different, so all I had was a Webster's Dictionary.
Soon after I started reading the Bible and continuing to go to that Church of Christ and I found that what they were trying to teach me about the Bible and their doctrinal beliefs was totally wrong according to what I was reading. They tried to teach me that the "Lord's Prayer" was obsolete, that using musical instruments in church was bad and that doing miracles died out with the apostle's.
Being as ignorant as I was about doctrinal differences and after the Holy Spirit brought innocents back into my life I tried to have discussion with them about what they were trying to teaching me and trying to use what it said in the bible to do it.
Man let me tell you that those folks began to hate me in short order and one time an old lady came into the church, sat down a few feet away from me and turned and looked a me with her face all snared up and she growled at me. LOL that was the first time I ever saw a demon in a person.
Anyways those folks started treating me so bad that I got a hard church hurt and I walked away from God at that point. I had decided that if that was what Christianity was all about I did want no part of it.
Twenty Two years later in 1996 my life was in shambles, I was an alcoholic and a doper and my life was headed to a hard crash. I knew I needed to do something so I began to reach out to God and started reading the Bible again and drinking my beer. I picked a Baptist church to start going to but I would still drink 3 or more tall beers before I got to the church every Sunday.
Then one night I had a dream and when I woke up I was delivered from alcoholism and refilled with the Holy Spirit once more. I found a nondenominational church to attend and God picked up where I left off and once again put this unquenchable desire to research and study the word of God and I have been hard at it ever since. I have written three books but two of them went out of print because the so called Christian publisher mismanaged their money and went under after Xerox confiscated $500,000 in leased printing equipment. I spent 8 years on the book of Revelation, 3 years on the early church doctrinal beliefs and event for the first 300 year and 4 years on researching and studying the Quran and Islam. The only book I have left on the market is the book on Islam.
So yes have never been influenced by any cult, school of thinking, bible collage or anything else. All I have ever studied from is the Word Of God. The book I wrote on Islam is about comparing the Bile to the Quran and reaching out to Muslims.

Interesting story.

Church of Christ is actually a cult. Alexander Campbell claimed that all other churches before him were corrupt, and he was restoring the true gospel. He claimed that you had to be baptized by a Campbellite pastor in order to be truly saved. Funny thing is, he himself was never baptized by a Campbellite pastor.

There was a group of cultic Campbellite people on this site who tried to convert others to their belief. One of those beliefs would be that a person isn't forgiven for their sins until they are baptized. They claim that the person makes contact with the literal blood of Jesus in the water. Like you mentioned, they claim also that the Holy Spirit isn't received by current day Christians because there are no apostles today, and laying on of hands conveyed the Holy Spirit.

Modern day Campbellites still exist amongst the Church of Christ people, but most have moved away from their teachings and have a lesser case of Campbellite doctrines.

Campbellites believe, in essence, that they are the only true Christians, so they are very cultic.

Perhaps you belonged to a Campbellite church. There are tons of videos on the errors of Campbellite (Church of Christ) churches on Youtube. Only problem is that some of the apologists against them are almost as ignorant as them.

It sounds like you believe some of their teachings still, though. For instance, the hatred of denominations is part of the Campbellite mentality. Campbellites only believe in local church authority for this very reason. They do not cooperate in terms of missionary work with other churches usually, because they are rabidly anti-denominational.

Cults are often like that, too. They will claim that denominations are false, but define themselves as the true church. They are not a denomination, but they are the true church, in their minds. And, non-denominational churches have the same mentality. In fact, non denominational churches can be far more heretical than denominational churches. They just want to fly under the radar screen by using non-denominationalism as an excuse for their rejection of Christian teaching as a whole.

Better watch out for that.

You've provoked my interest and I will likely watch a few more videos on Campbellites. I suspect that is what you were involved with.

For those who don't know, Duck Dynasty guys go to a Church of Christ church. I don't know if they are Campbellites or not. But, a lot of Church of Christ people basically believe in baptismal regeneration. They think baptism is what regenerates a person, instead of an act of the Holy Spirit prior to baptism. Evangelicals believe that baptism is an important testimony to one's faith, but the faith is already active prior to baptism, and baptism does not save. A Campbellite claims baptism saves.

Campbellites are Restorationist Movement groups. They claim they have restored the true faith. Cults are also restorationist movement organizations, including the one I was a part of. Restorationist Movements include the Campbellites (Church of Christ), Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrongites, Seventh Day Adventists and Christian Science.

All of these groups claim to be the true faith. And, these movements appeal to the self-righteous and vain people who want to think that they are the true believers, and attack other believers on minor issues, at best.

 

[massorite]

Interesting story.

Church of Christ is actually a cult. Alexander Campbell claimed that all other churches before him were corrupt, and he was restoring the true gospel. He claimed that you had to be baptized by a Campbellite pastor in order to be truly saved. Funny thing is, he himself was never baptized by a Campbellite pastor.

There was a group of cultic Campbellite people on this site who tried to convert others to their belief. One of those beliefs would be that a person isn't forgiven for their sins until they are baptized. They claim that the person makes contact with the literal blood of Jesus in the water. Like you mentioned, they claim also that the Holy Spirit isn't received by current day Christians because there are no apostles today, and laying on of hands conveyed the Holy Spirit.

Modern day Campbellites still exist amongst the Church of Christ people, but most have moved away from their teachings and have a lesser case of Campbellite doctrines.

Campbellites believe, in essence, that they are the only true Christians, so they are very cultic.

Perhaps you belonged to a Campbellite church. There are tons of videos on the errors of Campbellite (Church of Christ) churches on Youtube. Only problem is that some of the apologists against them are almost as ignorant as them.

It sounds like you believe some of their teachings still, though. For instance, the hatred of denominations is part of the Campbellite mentality. Campbellites only believe in local church authority for this very reason. They do not cooperate in terms of missionary work with other churches usually, because they are rabidly anti-denominational.

Cults are often like that, too. They will claim that denominations are false, but define themselves as the true church. They are not a denomination, but they are the true church, in their minds. And, non-denominational churches have the same mentality. In fact, non denominational churches can be far more heretical than denominational churches. They just want to fly under the radar screen by using non-denominationalism as an excuse for their rejection of Christian teaching as a whole.

Better watch out for that.

You've provoked my interest and I will likely watch a few more videos on Campbellites. I suspect that is what you were involved with.

For those who don't know, Duck Dynasty guys go to a Church of Christ church. I don't know if they are Campbellites or not. But, a lot of Church of Christ people basically believe in baptismal regeneration. They think baptism is what regenerates a person, instead of an act of the Holy Spirit prior to baptism. Evangelicals believe that baptism is an important testimony to one's faith, but the faith is already active prior to baptism, and baptism does not save. A Campbellite claims baptism saves.

Campbellites are Restorationist Movement groups. They claim they have restored the true faith. Cults are also restorationist movement organizations, including the one I was a part of. Restorationist Movements include the Campbellites (Church of Christ), Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrongites, Seventh Day Adventists and Christian Science.

All of these groups claim to be the true faith. And, these movements appeal to the self-righteous and vain people who want to think that they are the true believers, and attack other believers on minor issues, at best.

No I don't hate denominational churches but I di feel compassion for the folks who are suckered in by the false doctrinal beliefs of Denominational church. God never intended for us to create different denominations at all as they are all man made. It would be against the teachings of Christ if I had hatred in my heart for denominational churches You are right about the church of Christ, they did try and teach me that all other church goers were going to hell because they were the only authorized by God "Church of Christ".
The same goes for the Catholic Church. They won't ever tell you that is what they believe but in their Catholic Encyclopedia under doctrinal beliefs that is what they believe. Nope I don't believe that the Holy Spirit or Baptism save us,. But if our hearts are right and we ask to be saved then only Christ can save us from ourselves.
Christians for the most part don't like me very much because in the past I have spoken out about things I think are false or bad doctrines and I didn't care if your a layman or the Pastor and I use scripture to prove my point. I don't do Easter or Christmas because I have done the research on the origins of the two "Holy Days" and found that everything about Christmas from the date to the decorations comes from pagan ritual. As for Easter there was once a rift that came about between the Roman church and the Jerusalem and in the end we now have egg rolling, Easter bunnies and egg hunts. But the biggest problem I have with Easter is when a Pastor gets up and preaches that God forsook or turned His back on His son while He was on the Cross because God can't look upon sin.
That is a garbage belief because God Himself tells us that He can in fact look at sin.
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
These scriptures above prove that God can look upon sin and there is no way in Hades that God would ever forsake or turn His back on His only begotten son. Otherwise other scriptures that tell that God would never leave or forsake us would be lies.
There are several doctrines that are taught in both denominational and nondenominational churches that I disagree with
Today though I have learned to temper my desire to speak out and I have realized the no church is perfect so I find the church I feel comfortable with and speak up at the right time and to the right people.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

No I don't hate denominational churches but I di feel compassion for the folks who are suckered in by the false doctrinal beliefs of Denominational church. God never intended for us to create different denominations at all as they are all man made. It would be against the teachings of Christ if I had hatred in my heart for denominational churches You are right about the church of Christ, they did try and teach me that all other church goers were going to hell because they were the only authorized by God "Church of Christ".
The same goes for the Catholic Church. They won't ever tell you that is what they believe but in their Catholic Encyclopedia under doctrinal beliefs that is what they believe. Nope I don't believe that the Holy Spirit or Baptism save us,. But if our hearts are right and we ask to be saved then only Christ can save us from ourselves.
Christians for the most part don't like me very much because in the past I have spoken out about things I think are false or bad doctrines and I didn't care if your a layman or the Pastor and I use scripture to prove my point. I don't do Easter or Christmas because I have done the research on the origins of the two "Holy Days" and found that everything about Christmas from the date to the decorations comes from pagan ritual. As for Easter there was once a rift that came about between the Roman church and the Jerusalem and in the end we now have egg rolling, Easter bunnies and egg hunts. But the biggest problem I have with Easter is when a Pastor gets up and preaches that God forsook or turned His back on His son while He was on the Cross because God can't look upon sin.
That is a garbage belief because God Himself tells us that He can in fact look at sin.
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
These scriptures above prove that God can look upon sin and there is no way in Hades that God would ever forsake or turn His back on His only begotten son. Otherwise other scriptures that tell that God would never leave or forsake us would be lies.
There are several doctrines that are taught in both denominational and nondenominational churches that I disagree with
Today though I have learned to temper my desire to speak out and I have realized the no church is perfect so I find the church I feel comfortable with and speak up at the right time and to the right people.

So, how do you deal with the fact that Jesus himself quoted Psalm 22, in relation to the Cross?

Matt 27:45-50 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. 48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Jesus did, in fact, bear the Curse for those who believe, and he suffered an abandonment by God due to the sin of mankind being imputed to him.

The reason God doesn't forsake or leave believers is because Jesus has already borne the Curse for them.

It is illogical to say God didn't apply the effects of the Curse to Jesus because he doesn't apply the effects of the Curse to believers. Jesus bore the penalty of sin to the believer, and one of these penalties is abandonment.

However, I realize that whatever I say, you are going to attempt to deny it, because you have your own little way of viewing everything.

I can even predict your claim..your claim will be that death was the only penalty, therefore Jesus was not abandoned by the Father on the Cross.

By the way, I'm more and more convinced that you have read Herbert Armstrong's teachings, or individuals trained by him. You may deny it, but I think you have.

So far, I've identified about five things he taught that you believe..unusual things.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Six Dimension of Hell on the Cross

Colin Smith

Artists and poets have speculated over the centuries about hell (consider Dante’s “Inferno”), but the clearest revelation of hell is given at the cross. The Apostle’s Creed affirms that Christ descended into hell. While this has often been taken to refer to a journey Christ made after his death, the Reformers understood it to refer to what Christ experienced in the hours of darkness when he bore our sins and became our sacrifice.

Hell has six dimensions and Christ experienced all of them on the cross.

1. He was in conscious suffering.
Jesus experienced great physical suffering—the scourging, the nailing and the mocking—all at the hands of men. He felt in his body all the pain of torture and crucifixion. Hell is a place of “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Luke 13:28; Matthew 13:50), and Jesus entered into all of its pains and torments when he was suffering on the cross.

2. He was in blackest darkness.
“From the sixth hour [midday] until the ninth hour [3 in the afternoon], darkness came over all the land” (Matthew 27:45). The sudden darkness tells us that something entirely new was happening. Up to this point it had all been about physical suffering. Now Jesus was entering into the heart of his atoning work as our sin-bearer, drinking the cup of God’s wrath.

3. He was surrounded by demonic powers.
Scripture speaks of these dark forces when it tells us that “having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross” (Colossians 2:15). A full picture of this conflict has not been given to us, but we can be sure that the demonic powers were present at Calvary, adding their taunts and venom to the human hatred that was poured out on Christ.

4. He was bearing sin.
1 Peter 2:24 says, “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree.” God made him who had no sin to be sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21). In the darkness, the Lord laid on Jesus the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). To be our sin-bearer, Christ received in himself the hell that our sins deserve. Klass Schilder says God was “directly sending the torments of hell against the Christ.” This is the deepest mystery in the darkness of the cross.

5. He was under judgment.
Jesus endured hell on the cross because hell is the punishment for sin. All that hell is, he experienced right there during these hours of darkness in which he bore our sin and endured our punishment. The wrath of God was poured out on him, and he became the propitiation for our sins (Romans 3:25, 1 John 2:2).

6. He was separated from the knowledge of God’s love of God.
This abandoning of Christ meant that the love the Son had enjoyed with his Father for all eternity was now beyond his reach. It also meant that the terrors of the Father’s judgment were poured out on the Savior. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that “those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus…will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

That is hell.

Hell is conscious suffering in blackest darkness, surrounded by demonic powers. It is bearing the guilt of your sin and coming under the righteous judgment of God. But the hell of hell for the sinner will be to know that there is a God of love and that he or she could have known this is love, but that now it is beyond their reach.

When people talk about hell, the discussion is often about whether or not it is real. Hell is as real as the cross. Jesus entered all of hell’s dimensions on the cross, and he endured them so that you would never know what hell is like.

If someone should say, “There is no hell,” I ask, “Then what was the cross about? Why did Christ have to suffer? Why the darkness? Why the forsakenness? These things happened because there is there is Divine wrath, there is judgment and there is hell. All of this was poured out on Jesus, and he absorbed it in himself to save us from it. But as Richard Sibbes says, “Whatsoever was done to Christ…shall be done to all that are out[side] of him.” [ii]

That is as plain a statement as you can get, and it is faithful to the Scriptures. It is why every person must come to Jesus Christ and be in him, because we cannot be saved without him.


https://unlockingthebible.org/2015/04/six-dimensions-of-hell-on-the-cross/

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Here's some more on the atonement of Jesus, and how Jesus paid the penalty for our sins.

It is marvelous how the Atonement on the Cross ties into the Curse of Genesis 3.

This event pointed back to the Fall, and there is a lot of symbolism employed upon the Cross that misses the shallow thinker.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ement-are-we-standing-on-burnt-ground.188553/

I highly recommend looking at the posts on this thread to understand the symbolism.

 

[JaumeJ]

The writings of all the Old Testament point to our Savior, however this is not condoning denominations contdrived using the Bible by men.

When anyone can say with accuracy which denomination Jesus-Yeshua would be, then let me know. Until then I believe Yeshua's teaching. We are of the faith of Abraham, and made his shildren......….

 

[Grandpa]

Acts 10:13-15
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Peter is shown that animals that used to be unclean God now calls clean.


Therefore, Gentiles who eat these animals are also not unclean. Because God has declared eating these animals is not what causes a person to be unclean.

Matthew 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.


If these "unclean" animals were a health issue then the Gentiles who were Gods People would have been given the clean and unclean animal laws. So that argument falls really flat as well.

 

[massorite]

So, how do you deal with the fact that Jesus himself quoted Psalm 22, in relation to the Cross?

Matt 27:45-50 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. 48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Jesus did, in fact, bear the Curse for those who believe, and he suffered an abandonment by God due to the sin of mankind being imputed to him.

The reason God doesn't forsake or leave believers is because Jesus has already borne the Curse for them.

It is illogical to say God didn't apply the effects of the Curse to Jesus because he doesn't apply the effects of the Curse to believers. Jesus bore the penalty of sin to the believer, and one of these penalties is abandonment.

However, I realize that whatever I say, you are going to attempt to deny it, because you have your own little way of viewing everything.

I can even predict your claim..your claim will be that death was the only penalty, therefore Jesus was not abandoned by the Father on the Cross.

By the way, I'm more and more convinced that you have read Herbert Armstrong's teachings, or individuals trained by him. You may deny it, but I think you have.

So far, I've identified about five things he taught that you believe..unusual things.

God has been promising those who believe in Him and seek after Him that He will never leave or forsake them since the beginning and since God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow Christ suffering the "curse" on the cross didn't change God's loyalty to those who seek after Him in any way both before or after the cross.
Psa 94:14 For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.
1Sa 12:22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people. Psa 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

I have never questioned nor doubted that all of the sins of the world were heaped upon Christ while He was on the cross and I have never said anything different.
God knew us before we were in our mother's womb. He had a place for us in this world already prepared before we were born and only we by our bad choices can thwart the plans God had for us before we were in or mothers womb.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that
we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
This means that God has always had hope for us since before we were in our mother's womb and the suffering on the cross didn't change or improve on that and didn't have anything to do with what God has promised since the beginning of time.
Psalm 22 is a prophetic Psalm and while Christ was on the cross He was bringing attention to that prophecy as it was being fulfilled.
The whole idea that God forsook His son while he was on the cross is a man made explanation and something man came up with because it is totally illogical that God would promise over and over to never forsake us yet He forsook His only begotten son while Christ was suffering more than any man has ever suffered or will ever suffer.
Before Christ was on the cross He already knew what was going to happen to him. He knew He was going to suffer great pain, He knew he was going to be hung on the cross and He knew that the sins of all mankind were going to be put on Him and He knew He was the lamb slain from before the foundations of the earth.
Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
And your trying to convince me that Christ forgot His purpose and accused His Father of forsaking Him??? Something God has never done to those who Love Him?? LOL man I think you got a few things a little bit twisted up.

The Church Of Christ believes in the baptism of full body submersion, they believe that unrepented sin will send you to hell and that praising God is good just like scripture has ordained and approved of. But the Church of Christ also believes in some pretty wacky false doctrinal beliefs. So does that mean that everybody else in all churches that believe in full body submersion and that Praising God is good are all wrong and are cults??? No it doesn't which means that even though the Church of Christ is wrong on several accounts it does get some things right according to scripture.
The same applies to me. You've been trying to convince me that I am following various different cult teachings but you can't seem to make up your mind which one it is that I am following and you insist that I have been taught by them.
You seem to be a very educated person and that is where you problem lies. You have lost the simplicity of scripture. The Bible is geared to an educational level from the age of 7 to 17 depending on the version of the Bible and a grade level from 3rd grade to the 12th grade level You have taken something that God intended to be relatively simple and made it confusing and complicated. It is good to have the education you have but you have forgotten the simplicity of the Word of God .

 

[JaumeJ]

How is it you believe Jesus-Yeshua was quoting? It is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ps. 22. Yeshua gave the words to David...David was quoting our God...

 

[massorite]

How is it you believe Jesus-Yeshua was quoting? It is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ps. 22. Yeshua gave the words to David...David was quoting our God...

To me that is pretty simply. Quoting scripture is simply repeating something that was already said. In this case Christ was doing both at the same time, quoting and fulfilling.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

God has been promising those who believe in Him and seek after Him that He will never leave or forsake them since the beginning and since God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow Christ suffering the "curse" on the cross didn't change God's loyalty to those who seek after Him in any way both before or after the cross.
Psa 94:14 For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.
1Sa 12:22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people. Psa 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

I have never questioned nor doubted that all of the sins of the world were heaped upon Christ while He was on the cross and I have never said anything different.
God knew us before we were in our mother's womb. He had a place for us in this world already prepared before we were born and only we by our bad choices can thwart the plans God had for us before we were in or mothers womb.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that
we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
This means that God has always had hope for us since before we were in our mother's womb and the suffering on the cross didn't change or improve on that and didn't have anything to do with what God has promised since the beginning of time.
Psalm 22 is a prophetic Psalm and while Christ was on the cross He was bringing attention to that prophecy as it was being fulfilled.
The whole idea that God forsook His son while he was on the cross is a man made explanation and something man came up with because it is totally illogical that God would promise over and over to never forsake us yet He forsook His only begotten son while Christ was suffering more than any man has ever suffered or will ever suffer.
Before Christ was on the cross He already knew what was going to happen to him. He knew He was going to suffer great pain, He knew he was going to be hung on the cross and He knew that the sins of all mankind were going to be put on Him and He knew He was the lamb slain from before the foundations of the earth.
Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
And your trying to convince me that Christ forgot His purpose and accused His Father of forsaking Him??? Something God has never done to those who Love Him?? LOL man I think you got a few things a little bit twisted up.

The Church Of Christ believes in the baptism of full body submersion, they believe that unrepented sin will send you to hell and that praising God is good just like scripture has ordained and approved of. But the Church of Christ also believes in some pretty wacky false doctrinal beliefs. So does that mean that everybody else in all churches that believe in full body submersion and that Praising God is good are all wrong and are cults??? No it doesn't which means that even though the Church of Christ is wrong on several accounts it does get some things right according to scripture.
The same applies to me. You've been trying to convince me that I am following various different cult teachings but you can't seem to make up your mind which one it is that I am following and you insist that I have been taught by them.
You seem to be a very educated person and that is where you problem lies. You have lost the simplicity of scripture. The Bible is geared to an educational level from the age of 7 to 17 depending on the version of the Bible and a grade level from 3rd grade to the 12th grade level You have taken something that God intended to be relatively simple and made it confusing and complicated. It is good to have the education you have but you have forgotten the simplicity of the Word of God .

Note that you are the one who is trying to edit Scripture.

And, you are clearly wrong concerning this claim:

This means that God has always had hope for us since before we were in our mother's womb and the suffering on the cross didn't change or improve on that and didn't have anything to do with what God has promised since the beginning of time.

Jesus suffered on the Cross as part of the redemptive plan. His atonement was penal substitutionary atonement.

Isaiah 53 1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.
(ESV)


Well, all I've got to say is it is a good thing that you DON'T go to Easter services, because you would be there with a totally wrong attitude, if you discount the importance of the crucifixion, the suffering involved with it, and the resurrection. It is the only reason why anyone is saved.

The reason you do not like what I have to say is that you are all about twisting Scripture toward some minority views that you hold. But, in this case, you are basically denying the importance of the Cross, which is plainly heretical.

Regarding Jesus' suffering, it was a NECESSARY PART of his substitutionary atonement.

And regarding why God won't forsake the elect, this is because Jesus suffered the results of the curse on the Cross! One of these results is being abandoned or forsaken. Since Jesus' sacrifice is applied to true believers, then they will never be forsaken.

But, you seem incapable of reasoning so I will likely put you on ignore. There's really no profit in addressing you and your doctrinal errors. With this post, I believe you demonstrate you aren't even a Christian if you don't believe Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross and the accompanying suffering had any effect on your salvation. I would agree with that, because you may not be saved if you speak in this manner about his sacrifice and his suffering.

I urge you to read Isaiah 53 and repent of your heretical views.

 

[massorite]

Note that you are the one who is trying to edit Scripture.

And, you are clearly wrong concerning this claim:

This means that God has always had hope for us since before we were in our mother's womb and the suffering on the cross didn't change or improve on that and didn't have anything to do with what God has promised since the beginning of time.

Jesus suffered on the Cross as part of the redemptive plan. His atonement was penal substitutionary atonement.

Isaiah 53 1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.
(ESV)


Well, all I've got to say is it is a good thing that you DON'T go to Easter services, because you would be there with a totally wrong attitude, if you discount the importance of the crucifixion, the suffering involved with it, and the resurrection. It is the only reason why anyone is saved.

The reason you do not like what I have to say is that you are all about twisting Scripture toward some minority views that you hold. But, in this case, you are basically denying the importance of the Cross, which is plainly heretical.

Regarding Jesus' suffering, it was a NECESSARY PART of his substitutionary atonement.

And regarding why God won't forsake the elect, this is because Jesus suffered the results of the curse on the Cross! One of these results is being abandoned or forsaken. Since Jesus' sacrifice is applied to true believers, then they will never be forsaken.

But, you seem incapable of reasoning so I will likely put you on ignore. There's really no profit in addressing you and your doctrinal errors. With this post, I believe you demonstrate you aren't even a Christian if you don't believe Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross and the accompanying suffering had any effect on your salvation. I would agree with that, because you may not be saved if you speak in this manner about his sacrifice and his suffering.

I urge you to read Isaiah 53 and repent of your heretical views.

See I told you that you were over educated and that you complicate and bring confusion to scripture far beyond what God intended for it to be. You didn't even understand what I said and showed you with scripture though I told about what I was saying as if you were a child.

 

[JaumeJ]

Here is a bit of help, the present age and mankind within exist in what is called dtime.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

By the way, God didn't just have hope for the elect.

He determined to save them. Period. Their salvation has been assured.

And for those who claim his suffering did nothing for their salvation, they are not saved.

Penal substitutionary atonement is a fundamental doctrine of the Church.

And, in their desire to appear wise, they are ignoring the clear teachings of Scripture.

1 Peter 3:18 18 Christ suffered and died for sins once for all. He never sinned and yet He died for us who have sinned.

Notice that he both suffered and died.

It really takes a theological retard to make such a claim that Christ's suffering added nothing to their salvation. I don't believe any true Christian would utter such a thing.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The argument that clean/unclean laws are moral issues and not related to the Mosaic Law is faulty.

Genesis 9:3-4 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
(ESV)

So, we can see that God gave all moving things to Noah and his descendants for food.

Therefore, it was not objectively immoral to eat items which were later prohibited from eating under the Mosaic Law.

There was a division in Noah's day between clean and unclean for purposes of offering animal sacrifices, but not for eating. Noah took along extra "clean animals" for sacrificing purposes after leaving the Ark.

At any rate, you will find that legalists of all types will quibble over calendar observances and food more than anything else. That is why Romans 14 focuses on this topic. Jews and Gentiles were arguing about these topics in the Roman Church.

And, you will always find these ignorant, isolated people who will be claiming that Roman Catholicism contaminated evangelical Christianity, and trying to drag you into their nutty conspiracy theories regarding this. That has been going on ever since the Reformation, and will continue to go on. If you examine the cults that they belong to, or their own "lone ranger" hermit version of Christianity, though, you will find FAR WORSE problems than the evangelical church has.

I like the analogy of troglodytes that venture to the front of the cave to heave boulders down at others. After they heave theological boulders down on others, they run off to the inner recesses of the cave to brag to their fellow troglodytes how much good they have done.

This was the mentality of the Judaizers I belonged to. All the time they would whine about how persecuted they were.

 

[massorite]

The argument that clean/unclean laws are moral issues and not related to the Mosaic Law is faulty.

Genesis 9:3-4 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
(ESV)

So, we can see that God gave all moving things to Noah and his descendants for food.

Therefore, it was not objectively immoral to eat items which were later prohibited from eating under the Mosaic Law.

There was a division in Noah's day between clean and unclean for purposes of offering animal sacrifices, but not for eating. Noah took along extra "clean animals" for sacrificing purposes after leaving the Ark.

At any rate, you will find that legalists of all types will quibble over calendar observances and food more than anything else. That is why Romans 14 focuses on this topic. Jews and Gentiles were arguing about these topics in the Roman Church.

And, you will always find these ignorant, isolated people who will be claiming that Roman Catholicism contaminated evangelical Christianity, and trying to drag you into their nutty conspiracy theories regarding this. That has been going on ever since the Reformation, and will continue to go on. If you examine the cults that they belong to, or their own "lone ranger" hermit version of Christianity, though, you will find FAR WORSE problems than the evangelical church has.

I like the analogy of troglodytes that venture to the front of the cave to heave boulders down at others. After they heave theological boulders down on others, they run off to the inner recesses of the cave to brag to their fellow troglodytes how much good they have done.

This was the mentality of the Judaizers I belonged to. All the time they would whine about how persecuted they were. View attachment 214373

LOL I remember that move. It was a Sinbad movie. LOL

 

[massorite]

By the way, God didn't just have hope for the elect.

He determined to save them. Period. Their salvation has been assured.

And for those who claim his suffering did nothing for their salvation, they are not saved.

Penal substitutionary atonement is a fundamental doctrine of the Church.

And, in their desire to appear wise, they are ignoring the clear teachings of Scripture.

1 Peter 3:18 18 Christ suffered and died for sins once for all. He never sinned and yet He died for us who have sinned.

Notice that he both suffered and died.

It really takes a theological retard to make such a claim that Christ's suffering added nothing to their salvation. I don't believe any true Christian would utter such a thing.

Ignorance is bliss for some folks.