Are Christians more accepting of charlatans then we should be?

[Dino246]

It's a church hoping to Make America Great Again

Maybe it's a church that wants to Mitigate America's Great Apostasy?

 

[Scribe]

i appreciate the enthusiasm and hope, and my opinion may matter very little here, but i think that anyone wanting to become a pastor should be ready to be content with a congregation of no more than 1 or 2 others.

I am content to know Him and fellowship with Him. Nevertheless Faith believes God's word and sees 3000 saved in one day in the Bible (megachurch) and goes forth in the power of the Holy Ghost and has no problem expecting similar results.

Those who complain about megachurches and mighty moves of God can huddle together in their living rooms with their miserable little opinions and talk about all those false Christians out there, and repeat their SAD stories about how they got offended at the megachurch, as for me I will go with the Holy Spirit into all the world and watch Him turn it upside down again in these last days. I will believe God for an unlimited harvest of souls that one church will not be large enough for them all to meet in at one time. I think God loves it when He can find people of such faith. He is looking for them.

 

[Scribe]

Says the guy that does things his way instead of God's way.

You seem intent on provoking an argument. I don't argue. Personal false accusations toward me will just get you on my ignore list.

 

[Edify]

You seem intent on provoking an argument. I don't argue. Personal false accusations toward me will just get you on my ignore list.

No, not at all. You misunderstand me.
Let's reason for a minute. A good pastor/minister should always seek God's will on anything/everything they do.
Should I strive to build a mega church without sincerely praying about it first?

What if the Lord put you over a flock of 50 people, and it doesn't grow any further than 95. Should you quit just because it doesn't become a mega church & try again some place else?
What many forget when they shepherd a small flock is while the congregation doesn't grow as fast as we think it should, hundreds if not thousands of people could stroll in & out through the years hearing what God sent them to hear. Then there's possible radio ministry, Youtube semons, etc. that could reach even more.

I only said that as an eye opener to get you to see that our way isn't always God's way. If you don't want to talk about it anymore, fine, just say so & I'll leave you alone. I'm not trying to argue with anyone.

 

[Scribe]

No, not at all. You misunderstand me.
Let's reason for a minute. A good pastor/minister should always seek God's will on anything/everything they do.
Should I strive to build a mega church without sincerely praying about it first?

What if the Lord put you over a flock of 50 people, and it doesn't grow any further than 95. Should you quit just because it doesn't become a mega church & try again some place else?
What many forget when they shepherd a small flock is while the congregation doesn't grow as fast as we think it should, hundreds if not thousands of people could stroll in & out through the years hearing what God sent them to hear. Then there's possible radio ministry, Youtube semons, etc. that could reach even more.

I only said that as an eye opener to get you to see that our way isn't always God's way. If you don't want to talk about it anymore, fine, just say so & I'll leave you alone. I'm not trying to argue with anyone.

I agree that we are to seek to obey God. Whatever that means for His Will in out lives. If someone is called to pastor in a very small community it is not likely that they are going to have a mega church. If I am called to pastor a church in a very large city it is going to be more likely that I would have a mega church. This is obvious. The point is that Holy Spirit empowered preaching and evangelism might produce a great harvest in a large city and that should be the goal of every soulwinner. This aversion to megachurches I will never understand. What evangelists thinks in terms of limiting the number of souls?

 

[Scribe]

I agree that we are to seek to obey God. Whatever that means for His Will in out lives. If someone is called to pastor in a very small community it is not likely that they are going to have a mega church. If I am called to pastor a church in a very large city it is going to be more likely that I would have a mega church. This is obvious. The point is that Holy Spirit empowered preaching and evangelism might produce a great harvest in a large city and that should be the goal of every soulwinner. This aversion to megachurches I will never understand. What evangelists thinks in terms of limiting the number of souls?

I should clarify that I believe that in the rare case where a man is empowered by the Holy Spirit to preach the Word of God in such a way that people experience an encounter with God when he steps to the pulpit, people will drive a hundred miles to come hear that kind of preaching in person, and in the presence of the moment which no video can substitute, and that church in what may be a small community can become a megachurch. There are millions who are hungry for such a word from God.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I should clarify that I believe that in the rare case where a man is empowered by the Holy Spirit to preach the Word of God in such a way that people experience an encounter with God when he steps to the pulpit, people will drive a hundred miles to come hear that kind of preaching in person, and in the presence of the moment which no video can substitute, and that church in what may be a small community can become a megachurch. There are millions who are hungry for such a word from God.

Can you give an example of a preacher that you think this is the case?

 

[surfer14]

Can you give an example of a preacher that you think this is the case?

When I read his post, the first person I thought of was Jim Jones.

 

[Scribe]

Can you give an example of a preacher that you think this is the case?

I used to drive 150 miles to hear David Wilkerson deliver a message from heaven. I had several friends that drove 150 miles to attend bible studies in the home of Leonard Ravenhill in the 80's and 90s. Both these men were given to prayer and would not rest until they had that confirmation and release from the Spirit that they had the message God wanted them to deliver for that service, for that people, for that specific time. You always sensed that if you were there in person.

I am sure you can find things you don't agree with that these men preached. And I am sure you can find a website dedicated to exposing their "false doctrine." Don't waste your time with me. I knew them both and I will follow them as they followed Christ. They weren't theologians they weren't academics, they were just men who burned with the fresh touch of the Spirit and were good examples of the kind of preaching people are hungry for.

They both taught that God is no respecter of persons and that each of us can have that same communion with the Holy Spirit and preach so that the POWER of God is manifest and peoples hearts are opened if we spend the time in prayer that He calls us to. But few will pay that price. It has been a problem in the pulpit for centuries. Prayerless Preaching.

 

[Scribe]

When I read his post, the first person I thought of was Jim Jones.

1 Cor 4:19-20
19But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.

There is a preacher that is just talk. And there are those that have the Power of the Holy Spirit in their preaching.

I am aware of the fact that a vast number of Christians have never witnessed such power of the Holy Spirit in their pastors preaching and might think I was talking about natural charisma of a man's personality but that is not what I am referring to. It is the exact opposite. That natural charisma is not what Paul was talking about. The Power of God is altogether different. And you know it when you hear it and are a witness to it.

But as in other things that relate to the Holy Spirit it cannot be understood to the natural mind. This is a topic that is spiritually discerned.

 

[pottersclay]

Which is of more value to God?

A saved soul.....or a pocket full of gold?
To prepare to entertain.....or to sit at his feet? (Mary and martha)
To be tolerant....or patience?

Jesus through the pen of john has warned the churches.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I used to drive 150 miles to hear David Wilkerson deliver a message from heaven. I had several friends that drove 150 miles to attend bible studies in the home of Leonard Ravenhill in the 80's and 90s. Both these men were given to prayer and would not rest until they had that confirmation and release from the Spirit that they had the message God wanted them to deliver for that service, for that people, for that specific time. You always sensed that if you were there in person.

I am sure you can find things you don't agree with that these men preached. And I am sure you can find a website dedicated to exposing their "false doctrine." Don't waste your time with me. I knew them both and I will follow them as they followed Christ. They weren't theologians they weren't academics, they were just men who burned with the fresh touch of the Spirit and were good examples of the kind of preaching people are hungry for.

They both taught that God is no respecter of persons and that each of us can have that same communion with the Holy Spirit and preach so that the POWER of God is manifest and peoples hearts are opened if we spend the time in prayer that He calls us to. But few will pay that price. It has been a problem in the pulpit for centuries. Prayerless Preaching.

Didn't David Wilkerson die recently?
It don't matter if I agree with everything they say or not. I'm not the authority. I don't agree with anyone on everything.
I can say this for David though, he don't mind calling the prosperity teachers as crooks, and he called out Benny Hinn.

 

[KingdomBrat]

Can you give an example of a preacher that you think this is the case?

Today, Dwight Thompson. We drove about 2.5 hours one way each time he preached for Lester Sumrall.

 

[luigi]

Hello everybody,

I hope you are all well.
I have been lurking on this forum for some time and decided to join - thanks to the administrators for approving my profile very quickly.

The thing I'd like to get people's views on is whether we as a broad church are more accepting of charlatans and narcissists than we should be.

I had a bad experience at a so called church (Hillsong) about 2 years ago and haven't returned since.
I left because I didn't like how people were manipulated into tithing (not a requirement for modern day Christians) and side-lined if they didn't give in to the manipulation.
I gave to the Church myself, but eventually realised I was doing so under compulsion which is when my eyes were opened to the manipulation.

I also didn't like how closed the 'books' (financial records) were.
The pastor always said the the 'books' were open and free for all to examine, but when a couple of people from the church asked to look at the 'books', they were simply forwarded to the statutory accounts on a government website.
The statutory accounts provide a summary, not a full breakdown.

The pastor and his wife were also living the life of Riley: new car paid for by church, utility bills paid for by church, travel expenses paid for by church, near £40k a year wage (which doesn't include his wife's wage!).
I even witnessed the pastor say during a sermon that he is "God's gift to the church"! Massive ego.

I came to the conclusion that the church was being run like a business.
I did some research on Hillsong and realised that Hillsong is definitely money orientated.

Any thoughts?

Sorry in advance if this divides opinion.

Hello LostSoul,
I believe the time is now upon us where the Lord is again shaking the earth, so that those things that are made by man, such as are many who claim faith in what is Christ, but in fact are not, will be shaken out (Hebrews 12:26-27). I strongly suspect that when things begin to get really bad with the shaking throughout the world the Lord has commenced to undertake, will shakeout feigned faith organizations as appears to be Hillsong.

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Today, Dwight Thompson. We drove about 2.5 hours one way each time he preached for Lester Sumrall.

John Hagees buddy?

 

[KingdomBrat]

John Hagees buddy?

I don't know who he knows or doesn't know. I do know his Church grew immensely, was very popular, Lester Sumrall used him in [Camp Meetings]. And he said during one of his last televised sermons, God directed him to hand his Church over to the next person in line and he was to spend his life with the homeless preaching to them. That's been his Calling past 25 years. He goes down to the busy Los Angeles downtown corners and [publicly preaches] every day.

 

[Runningman]

2 Peter 2:1-3
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

(Underline and bold done by me)

 

[Scribe]

Didn't David Wilkerson die recently?
It don't matter if I agree with everything they say or not. I'm not the authority. I don't agree with anyone on everything.
I can say this for David though, he don't mind calling the prosperity teachers as crooks, and he called out Benny Hinn.

He died in 2010.

His ministry radically changed in the early 80s when he began to read puritan writers and began to cry out to God for a deeper revelation of Christ. Because of his preaching, probably more than anyone else, a vast majority of sold out saints rejected the Word of Faith and Hyper Faith movement and today it is no longer a major movement.

But what made him so effective is that he lived what he preached about getting shut in with God and praying until the Holy Spirit has changed the preacher and made him one with the message.

If you listen to one of his sermons, listen to one that someone has not added music to. David did not allow people to play keyboards in the background when he preached. He would call that manipulation and flesh. He relied on the Holy Spirit to open peoples hearts. by the Power of God which has nothing to do with emotional manipulation and hype.

I am not trying to glorify a man or draw attention to a man, I am trying to bring up one example in modern times of the kind of preaching that people will travel long distances to hear. It is not the man or his eloquence, it is that gift of preaching that makes Christ known to a hungry soul. What I think Paul meant by the "Power." It makes someone fall in love with Jesus.

I have not listened to that many sermons from David Wilkerson. Those that I have listened to always made me want to know Jesus even more than I already did. I think that is a mark of biblical Spirit empowered preaching.

Who is preaching like that who is still alive today? I am sure that they are out there. I believe that if you "get shut in with God" and pray to find such a church with such preaching that God will lead you to it. I believe that God always has a remnant. It should not be that hard because as you fellowship with other hungry saints who want more of Jesus, word will get around about such a church and such preaching.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

He died in 2010.

His ministry radically changed in the early 80s when he began to read puritan writers and began to cry out to God for a deeper revelation of Christ. Because of his preaching, probably more than anyone else, a vast majority of sold out saints rejected the Word of Faith and Hyper Faith movement and today it is no longer a major movement.

But what made him so effective is that he lived what he preached about getting shut in with God and praying until the Holy Spirit has changed the preacher and made him one with the message.

If you listen to one of his sermons, listen to one that someone has not added music to. David did not allow people to play keyboards in the background when he preached. He would call that manipulation and flesh. He relied on the Holy Spirit to open peoples hearts. by the Power of God which has nothing to do with emotional manipulation and hype.

I am not trying to glorify a man or draw attention to a man, I am trying to bring up one example in modern times of the kind of preaching that people will travel long distances to hear. It is not the man or his eloquence, it is that gift of preaching that makes Christ known to a hungry soul. What I think Paul meant by the "Power." It makes someone fall in love with Jesus.

I have not listened to that many sermons from David Wilkerson. Those that I have listened to always made me want to know Jesus even more than I already did. I think that is a mark of biblical Spirit empowered preaching.

Who is preaching like that who is still alive today? I am sure that they are out there. I believe that if you "get shut in with God" and pray to find such a church with such preaching that God will lead you to it. I believe that God always has a remnant. It should not be that hard because as you fellowship with other hungry saints who want more of Jesus, word will get around about such a church and such preaching.

You can share what you like about the man. Thats not necessarily glorifying him. I really know very little, almost nothing about the guy. So I have to take your word for it.

 

[CS1]

I used to drive 150 miles to hear David Wilkerson deliver a message from heaven. I had several friends that drove 150 miles to attend bible studies in the home of Leonard Ravenhill in the 80's and 90s. Both these men were given to prayer and would not rest until they had that confirmation and release from the Spirit that they had the message God wanted them to deliver for that service, for that people, for that specific time. You always sensed that if you were there in person.

I am sure you can find things you don't agree with that these men preached. And I am sure you can find a website dedicated to exposing their "false doctrine." Don't waste your time with me. I knew them both and I will follow them as they followed Christ. They weren't theologians they weren't academics, they were just men who burned with the fresh touch of the Spirit and were good examples of the kind of preaching people are hungry for.

They both taught that God is no respecter of persons and that each of us can have that same communion with the Holy Spirit and preach so that the POWER of God is manifest and peoples hearts are opened if we spend the time in prayer that He calls us to. But few will pay that price. It has been a problem in the pulpit for centuries. Prayerless Preaching.

God confirmed HIS word given to them to preach with signs and wonders. Hundreds of thousands have made a confession of the Lord Jesus through their ministries. David Wilkerson was a man of God all the way until he was called home. A man of integrity and humility. Teen Challenge has ministered to thousand with a 70% rehabilitation with a "Christ-centered " program. NO secular program out there can say that. To God be the Glory.