M
Are the Ends always justified by the Means?
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Individual rules are not absolute. The principle of love itself is. As we seek to embody God's love then we realise individual rules don't apply in every situation. In the above example it is obvious. The individual rule : Don't lie to people, doesn't apply. Love for the jews demands it. Even love for the nazi enemy demands it (since you are stopping them from doing evil).
Are you defining individual rule as ethics and values? If so what is the difference between ethics, values, and moral law? Are any of these absolute or are all 3 just based on opinion?
Yes. Rules are for children really.
No. The individual rules are a practical application of ethics, which is the study of what makes a "good" life. Values are what we typically hold dear as an ideal. Things such as "feedom", "justice" "knowledge" and "love" etc. I think moral law would concern itself with ethics and values.......individual moral laws would depend on the circumstances of a situation. That is why courts will consider all the evidence.
To me, love is the highest value. But in order to be practical to situations it needs knowledge. This hopefully creates wisdom.
Values in themselves are absolute. The principle of law, for instance. But the outworking of "law" into individual laws.....now that's another matter! Even this comes back to love though; as we only really need laws because we don't know how to love correctly as a species.
The principles in themselves are absolute. The practical applications are opinions on these. Not always easy.
Morality- The quality of an action which renders it good; the conformity of an act to the divine law, or to the principles of rectitude. This conformity implies that the act must be performed by a free agent, and from a motive of obedience to the divine will.
Ethics- A system of moral principles; a system of rules for regulating the actions and manners of men in society.
Values- To esteem; to hold in respect and estimation; as, to value one for his works or virtues.
Virtues- Moral goodness; the practice of moral duties and the abstaining from vice, or a conformity of life and conversation to the moral law. Virtue is nothing but voluntary obedience to truth. A particular moral excellence; as the virtue of temperance, of chastity, of charity.
So to confine the relationship of all four we have to start at divine law or commonly known as the moral law.
Moral law is many of the Bible's commandments or laws. These are of God and therefore are absolute. Murder will forever be wrong regardless with how hard someone tries to justify it.
Ethics involves using the moral law that murder is wrong a therefore should be a system in place that defines murder and the consequences within a governmental society.
A Virtuous person will be one who is obedient to the moral law and the ethics that come from morality. These people are considered valuable citizens or they deserve higher respect as law abiding citizens both morally and ethically. These are the citizens that a good government should want in office, the judiciary branch, church councils, public affairs, doctors, etc.
For the example of lying. Lying is countless times spoke against or warned against throughout scripture. Only two times God seemed to bless the results of a lie but never condoned it. That was the Hebrew midwives who lie to Pharaoh Exodus 1:15-21, it probably saved the lives of many Hebrew babies. Another example is Rahab’s lie to protect the Israelite spies in Joshua 2:5.
So we can easily assume that lying is 98% of the time wrong. The other 2% will be left to the conscience and Holy Spirit.
M
morefaithrequired
Guest
i dont know how you can give exact percentages. Deception and omission( keeping quiet) are part of our daily life in order to survive and protect ourselves.
So our motives for lying indicate the level of sin if any. Look at a simple example like resumes. Exaggeration and hyperbole. Emphasising our strengths, minimising our weaknesses. People will lie in order to get a job. because they need a job. people are rather fond of eating and not being homeless. They will say anything they can get away with at a job interview to clinch the position. Desperate people lie. The more affluent don't have to. And can boast about their high ideals.
Except when the Israelites murder the men women and children in the promised land? Surely this is a good example of the means not justifying the ends?
If they are God commanded then it isnt murder but just like a soldier obeying their General who happens to be the ultimate General. All those events paved the way that led to Jesus. The nation, the people, the chronology, and events all like a puzzle from Genesis to Matthew are connected.
Does God approve of lying or deception?
Proverbs 12:22
22 Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord,
but those who act faithfully are his delight.
If they lie to get a job and if found out they will be fired and reputation can carry weight.
Plus who is the individual trusting? God or self? Lying is clear from scripture to be wrong. In all cases lying is a deceptive form of promoting self.
The 2% compares is it still wrong to lie if it involves the greater outcome of loving your neighbor and protecting them from harm.
Regardless God is quite clear on the selfish goals of a individual who lies. These are absolute. God finds them to be a abomination. Quite clear. And for those who believe God's Word to be true then we accept the absolutes of His commands and teachings.
Morally wrong means? This defies the expectations of Elohim. Always walk in truth. To achieve an end from a morally wrong position means we are utilising moral relativism to justify our actions.
Proverbs 14:12 - There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death
Proverbs 21:2 - Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but YHWH pondereth the heart
As it is taught in Thelema by Crowley: "Do what thou wilt and let that be the whole of the law". Forming our own codes of ethical conduct, when we do this we stray from the Word of G-d. Even if the means do not deceive others, hurt other, it is a defect within ourselves. To where does it lead?
Proverbs 14:12 - There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death
Proverbs 21:2 - Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but YHWH pondereth the heart
As it is taught in Thelema by Crowley: "Do what thou wilt and let that be the whole of the law". Forming our own codes of ethical conduct, when we do this we stray from the Word of G-d. Even if the means do not deceive others, hurt other, it is a defect within ourselves. To where does it lead?
A few questions.
Are you from a Jewish background? And describe what is Thelema by Crowley? And how does that relate to the Bible?
So morality is a shifting sand then? To you God, who is the source of morality, can change the rules any time he likes. We can't rely on that. If murder may not be murder, then all you have done is transfer the moral relativism you don't like in humans onto God.
I would say that lying to protect from harm is not wrong. It is not wrong to lie to save peoples lives. So it is not an absolute. Love is the absolute which demands a lie.
How is it shifting if God already had his word written down. A Old Covenant to a New Covenant. A Old Testament to a New Testament. A ancient theocratic nation to commands to all individuals.
Nothing relative.
Question.
Is this a absolute claim or opinion of God?
Proverbs 12:22
22 Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord,
but those who act faithfully are his delight.
I'm not really disagreeing with you on the if the situation arises and the best way to love your neighbor is to lie to protect them.
I am trying to show you God's word doesn't lie so by this understanding then what God says is absolute. What God calls good is absolute. And what God calls evil is absolute.
M
morefaithrequired
Guest
some truth in what you say. I used to think in absolutes like you. and i think when we backslide we do need a wake up call. But ive changed my image of God. He is not out to get us for breaking rules. He wants the best for us. He understands when we are forced into desperate circumstances. He forgives but only if we show the same empathy and flexibility as Him.
Not sure how what I said relates to your comment. Maybe explain this comment above in more detail.
T
tasha66
Guest
I've always said semantics or 'nit picking' gets in the way of good old common sense. My friend's Dad used to say 'common sense isn't so common'. How true.
I think we all have to live in the real world, as Jesus did. I'm no Bible expert by any means, but didn't Jesus cry out to his Father to spare him from being crucified? (if you have the Bible link to this, do please post it for me).
We all have brains to make decisions, and sometimes, those decisions have to be made in a mere split second. Also, kids are not equipped the same as adults to make informed decisions, and are immature so at times make split decisions towards violence or to kill (there's a program on about that at the moment down here called 'Kids who kill').
We also must follow the law of the land so to speak, as we do live on an earth that has been been created by God, but there are societal rules that if not followed, have to be punished somehow (the whole debate about execution is another one for another time methinks).
I've cared for and worked with people from the worse backgrounds and who have been put in the worse situations imaginable - stuff that if I COULD tell you you'd not believe me, or think I was at the very least exaggerating. (I can't say too much without breaching confidentiality however, so I have to be very careful). If I COULD breach confidentiality, I could tell you one story that was so horrific, it gave me nightmares for months on end. I'm still not over it and have thought about that poor person many, many times & wonder how she is going.
Is a woman who turns to prostitution to feed her starving kids wrong, because in her country she can't get social security help, or she's tried everything to get food? Is a woman who was abused and assaulted in the most obscene ways possible wrong for killing her abusers? Is a person wrong for killing a man who is raping her? Is it wrong to defend your life against someone who is attacking you, with the intent to kill you? Is committing suicide wrong?
I think common sense and the law of the land has to prevail with this type of question.
I think we all have to live in the real world, as Jesus did. I'm no Bible expert by any means, but didn't Jesus cry out to his Father to spare him from being crucified? (if you have the Bible link to this, do please post it for me).
We all have brains to make decisions, and sometimes, those decisions have to be made in a mere split second. Also, kids are not equipped the same as adults to make informed decisions, and are immature so at times make split decisions towards violence or to kill (there's a program on about that at the moment down here called 'Kids who kill').
We also must follow the law of the land so to speak, as we do live on an earth that has been been created by God, but there are societal rules that if not followed, have to be punished somehow (the whole debate about execution is another one for another time methinks).
I've cared for and worked with people from the worse backgrounds and who have been put in the worse situations imaginable - stuff that if I COULD tell you you'd not believe me, or think I was at the very least exaggerating. (I can't say too much without breaching confidentiality however, so I have to be very careful). If I COULD breach confidentiality, I could tell you one story that was so horrific, it gave me nightmares for months on end. I'm still not over it and have thought about that poor person many, many times & wonder how she is going.
Is a woman who turns to prostitution to feed her starving kids wrong, because in her country she can't get social security help, or she's tried everything to get food? Is a woman who was abused and assaulted in the most obscene ways possible wrong for killing her abusers? Is a person wrong for killing a man who is raping her? Is it wrong to defend your life against someone who is attacking you, with the intent to kill you? Is committing suicide wrong?
I think common sense and the law of the land has to prevail with this type of question.