are the wicked resurrected?

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Ah, you mean purgatory?

No I do not mean purgatory!

No, there is no intermediate state.

I guess Jesus didn't promise to be with with the dying thief that day then did he? Luke 23:43 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ. I am assuming you are proficient in Greek based upon our discussions in another thread - but if not you can look it up the verse in question yourself :D

When one dies, he is asleep until the resurrection.

Well, I guess Jesus didn't say Matthew 22:32 ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ θεὸς Ἀβραὰμ καὶ ὁ θεὸς Ἰσαὰκ καὶ ὁ θεὸς Ἰακώβ; οὐκ ἔστιν [ὁ] θεὸς νεκρῶν ἀλλὰ ζώντων. Notice that he is speaking of God being the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the present tense and then he goes on to say, in application of this Old Testament quote θεὸς νεκρῶν ἀλλὰ ζώντων still present tense, saying that God is the God of the living, not the dead! Hence Jesus Christ is saying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive at that time.

Now you may also wish to consider, 1 Sam 28:7-19, Matt 17:1-4, Acts 7:59-60, Heb 11:1-2, Heb 12:22-24, rev 4-5, Rev 7:9, 14 before you respond.

Because the bible is so clear on this matter 'Soul sleep' was unkown in the church until around the fourth century when Arnobius 'invented it' since then it has had a few adherents but has never gained acceptance in the church - today it's champions are mainly from the cults (Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians and Armstrongism)
 
Can one really get water to give to someone in hell ?

Can someone who is burning in hell wish and beg?
Can someone burning in hell REMEMBER?
Can someone burning in hell desire that his brothers not come there?

Lazarus and Abraham were not burning in hell, but were in PARADISE, and to someone who could see them across the GULF in PARADISE where there could have BEEN water it is not UNREASONABLE to believe that water was there...

How about we break it down like this.....DID JESUS ever LIE or be DECEPTIVE?

So, was he stupid, lying, mistaken or being deceptive when he made the remark about water?
 
I guess Jesus didn't promise to be with with the dying thief that day then did he? Luke 23:43 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ. I am assuming you are proficient in Greek based upon our discussions in another thread - but if not you can look it up the verse in question yourself :D

Let's see, one at a time...

did the thief go to heaven that very day?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So, that very day, Wednesday, April 25, 31AD did the thief go to heaven? Better yet, was he with Christ in heaven?

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Uh-oh, this is Sunday morning around daybreak and Christ had not gone to heaven yet. So if the thief was there, Christ really was not the firstfruits, nor the firstborn among many brethren, the thief was...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And uh, by the way, Mr. Greek Scholar, when were commas added to the text?

The original text would have translated as such...


Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

And the translation that fits all of the scripture would be this...


Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Or in the NKJV...

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

Since the dead in Christ are not resurrected until His return...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Just out of curiosity, why would the thief get preferential treatment over Abel or Enoch or Noah or Abraham?

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Jesus said of these...

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And just to circumvent the round about that paradise and heaven are not the same place...

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul plainly says they are the same place.
 
Can someone who is burning in hell wish and beg?
Can someone burning in hell REMEMBER?
Can someone burning in hell desire that his brothers not come there?

Lazarus and Abraham were not burning in hell, but were in PARADISE, and to someone who could see them across the GULF in PARADISE where there could have BEEN water it is not UNREASONABLE to believe that water was there...

How about we break it down like this.....DID JESUS ever LIE or be DECEPTIVE?

So, was he stupid, lying, mistaken or being deceptive when he made the remark about water?

Then, if Christ never lied or was deceptive, why did He say this...

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

If Abraham and Lazarus were already there?
 
Then, if Christ never lied or was deceptive, why did He say this...

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

If Abraham and Lazarus were already there?

Go back and read what I have written.......Paradise was transferred to heaven when Jesus resurrected and ascended and to your point above to Reformed....

Jesus and the thief went to the EXACT SAME PLACE that ABRAHAM and LAZARUS were...PARADISE......which PROVES the place was LITERAL in the (SO-CALLED) parable of Luke 16!
 
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them:
as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath;
so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward,
and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Are animals spirit eternal ?
 
Well, I guess Jesus didn't say Matthew 22:32 ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ θεὸς Ἀβραὰμ καὶ ὁ θεὸς Ἰσαὰκ καὶ ὁ θεὸς Ἰακώβ; οὐκ ἔστιν [ὁ] θεὸς νεκρῶν ἀλλὰ ζώντων. Notice that he is speaking of God being the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the present tense and then he goes on to say, in application of this Old Testament quote θεὸς νεκρῶν ἀλλὰ ζώντων still present tense, saying that God is the God of the living, not the dead! Hence Jesus Christ is saying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive at that time.

Like I said, one at a time. These subjects are big enough to need a book to explain and back up with scripture, but in a short post, we'll give it a go...

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

What does that mean? Is Abraham alive and in heaven?

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

He is not in heaven.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

He is not alive. He did not receive the promise of eternal life. He is still dead and awaiting a resurrection...

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Abraham will be made perfect, given eternal life, receive the promise at the resurrection with the rest of the converted...

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So what does Mat 22:32 really mean?

What is the context?

Mat 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

The Sadducees taught that there was no resurrection from the dead, that the physical life is all there is.

Christ was showing that there will be a resurrection and the saints will be made alive again...

Mat 22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mat 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
Mat 22:26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
Mat 22:27 And last of all the woman died also.
Mat 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

When we read it in context, we see that Christ was showing these Sadducees that there is a resurrection from the dead.

Again, you are a prime example of what happens when scripture is lifted out of context and proof texted.
 
Go back and read what I have written.......Paradise was transferred to heaven when Jesus resurrected and ascended and to your point above to Reformed....

You need to show me some scripture for that. If these guys went to paradise, then got transferred to heaven, what is the purpose of a resurrection?

Jesus and the thief went to the EXACT SAME PLACE that ABRAHAM and LAZARUS were...PARADISE......which PROVES the place was LITERAL in the (SO-CALLED) parable of Luke 16!

Yes they went to exactly the same place, the grave. They were dead.
 
Can someone who is burning in hell wish and beg?
Can someone burning in hell REMEMBER?
Can someone burning in hell desire that his brothers not come there?

Lazarus and Abraham were not burning in hell, but were in PARADISE, and to someone who could see them across the GULF in PARADISE where there could have BEEN water it is not UNREASONABLE to believe that water was there...

How about we break it down like this.....DID JESUS ever LIE or be DECEPTIVE?

So, was he stupid, lying, mistaken or being deceptive when he made the remark about water?
Hell or the lake of fire is real

It was a parable would you really pluck out your eye ?
[h=1]Matthew 5:29-30King James Version (KJV)[/h]29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Do you know what perish means ?

Persons in the lake of fire would cease to exist their spirit will be destroyed asa present mans spirit goes back to God when he dies
 
Go back and read what I have written.......Paradise was transferred to heaven when Jesus resurrected and ascended and to your point above to Reformed....

Jesus and the thief went to the EXACT SAME PLACE that ABRAHAM and LAZARUS were...PARADISE......which PROVES the place was LITERAL in the (SO-CALLED) parable of Luke 16!

When was the wicked given eternal life ?
If Adam ate out of the tree of life in a sinful form could he have died ?
 
You need to show me some scripture for that. If these guys went to paradise, then got transferred to heaven, what is the purpose of a resurrection?



Yes they went to exactly the same place, the grave. They were dead.

Both of your statements amaze me......

1. Kind of hard for JESUS to bring the DEAD back from heaven with him when he comes if they are not there.<--THE DEAD in CHRIST WILL HE BRING WITH HIM
2. Kind of hard for Jesus to go preach to the spirits that were disobedient during the days of NOAH if he is dead
3. Does paradise sound like a place where the DEAD would be
4. He led captivity captive....
5. How many people RESURRECTED when he did and WALKED AROUND after his RESURRECTION

No offense bro, but your theology denies a lot of scriptural proof to the contrary!
 
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When was the wicked given eternal life ?
If Adam ate out of the tree of life in a sinful form could he have died ?

No where did I say the wicked were given eternal LIFE and your point about ADAM means exactly what in the grand scheme of things.....!
 
Both of your statements amaze me......

1. Kind of hard for JESUS to bring the DEAD back from heaven with him when he comes if they are not there.<--THE DEAD in CHRIST WILL HE BRING WITH HIM
2. Kind of hard for Jesus to go preach to the spirits that were disobedient during the days of NOAH if he is dead
3. Does paradise sound like a place where the DEAD would be
4. He led captivity captive....
5. How many people RESURRECTED when he did and WALK AROUND after his RESURRECTION

No offense bro, but your theology denies a lot of scriptural proof to the contrary!
What is the prison ?
Are you saying Jesus did not die since He went and preach to the dead that will mean His death was a hoax ?
 
No where did I say the wicked were given eternal LIFE and your point about ADAM means exactly what in the grand scheme of things.....!
goody well if Adam had eaten out of the tree he will remain in a sinfull state forever and burn in fire forever
however man dies therefore death pass unto all men through Adam which mean all the wicked never got eternal life therefore they would die the second death destruction of soul body and spirit

the first death is the destruction of the body
 
What is the prison ?
Are you saying Jesus did not die since He went and preach to the dead that will mean His death was a hoax ?

Not saying that at all....He believes one dies and does not know anything which the OT speaks of...I.E> they don't know anything about what is happening here......

Christ DIED, WENT to paradise (Luke 16) preached and then ascended (the third day) taking captivity with him (the saved that had died through the ages) to heaven with him, of the which he will bring back with him when he comes.....
 
No where did I say the wicked were given eternal LIFE and your point about ADAM means exactly what in the grand scheme of things.....!
Will the people body be continually burning in fire while they are screaming forever ? Why ?
 
Not saying that at all....He believes one dies and does not know anything which the OT speaks of...I.E> they don't know anything about what is happening here......

Christ DIED, WENT to paradise (Luke 16) preached and then ascended (the third day) taking captivity with him (the saved that had died through the ages) to heaven with him, of the which he will bring back with him when he comes.....

Does not the bible say the first shall be last and the last first and that we all will get our reward at the same time ?

Are you saying that abraham and david got their reward and are in heaven right now ?
 
Will the people body be continually burning in fire while they are screaming forever ? Why ?

Ask God...Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection upon whom the second death hath no power.....

Everyone found not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be cast alive into the lake of fire where the smoke of their torment will ascend forever........