are the wicked resurrected?

[ELECT]

Ask God...Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection upon whom the second death hath no power.....

Everyone found not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be cast alive into the lake of fire where the smoke of their torment will ascend forever........

will their body soul and spirit be in torment forever ?

 

[dcontroversal]

Does not the bible say the first shall be last and the last first and that we all will get our reward at the same time ?

Are you saying that abraham and david got their reward and are in heaven right now ?

No I am saying that David and Abraham are in heaven right now and will be rewarded at the Judgment seat of Christ when he comes at the 7th trump and the rewarding of the saints, prophets and those who fear God takes place as found in Revelation at the 7th trump...the resurrection/change....the dead in Christ who are with him will receive their bodies and everyone who is alive and remaining (saved) will be changed...this entire event happens in a blink of an eye as we together get caught up to Jesus in that air........!

 

[dcontroversal]

will their body soul and spirit be in torment forever ?

forever and ever.........that is what the scriptures state...Revelation 20

 

[ELECT]

forever and ever.........that is what the scriptures state...Revelation 20

Where are the carcasses found ?
Are they burning forever ?
Why is the soul destroyed by the lake of fire and not normal bush fires we have today ?

[h=1]Isaiah 66:23-24King James Version (KJV)[/h]23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases (BODY) of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

[h=1]Matthew 10:28King James Version (KJV)[/h]
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[ELECT]

forever and ever.........that is what the scriptures state...Revelation 20

will animals be resurected to be throw in the lake of fire and go to heaven ?
If the dead mankind are conscious that means that their is a conscious dead animal kingdom of hell and heaven

 

[Reformed_Baptist]

Let's see, one at a time...

did the thief go to heaven that very day?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So, that very day, Wednesday, April 25, 31AD did the thief go to heaven? Better yet, was he with Christ in heaven?

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Uh-oh, this is Sunday morning around daybreak and Christ had not gone to heaven yet. So if the thief was there, Christ really was not the firstfruits, nor the firstborn among many brethren, the thief was...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And uh, by the way, Mr. Greek Scholar, when were commas added to the text?

The original text would have translated as such...


Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

And the translation that fits all of the scripture would be this...


Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Or in the NKJV...

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

Since the dead in Christ are not resurrected until His return...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Just out of curiosity, why would the thief get preferential treatment over Abel or Enoch or Noah or Abraham?

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Jesus said of these...

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And just to circumvent the round about that paradise and heaven are not the same place...

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul plainly says they are the same place.

Your argument is with the word of God not with me - and as for your pejorative tone well I do not care for that either - there is just no need for it! But it is telling, you were the one who began throwing Greek at me, maybe you need to learn not to bite off more then chew in that department

Now examining your point about comma - what you say is utterly irrelevant. Whilst commas in the text are later additions. If you follow the text through it is clear that the day thief thought as you do - that there was nothing between death and the resurrection, in response to that Jesus reveals a startling truth to him, notice the opening word, 'verily' Αμὴν whenever we see Jesus using that term he is revealing something important - so ask yourself what is the truth that he is seeking to reveal? Is it that the thief was right or is that the thief was wrong and that today he would be with him in paradise?

As for the rest of your scripture well most of them are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and all of them merely set scripture against scripture and in truth I feel no need to make my case further you can create pretext after pretext from your selective citation of God's word all you will but it does not make your case any more convincing - Jesus promised the thief paradise that day, he also claimed that God was the God of the living, not the dead in reference to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and he was speaking in the present tense not the future!

 

[Word_Swordsman]

What doesn't seem to make sense to me is most folks believe they go to hell directly after death and then are resurrected to be thrown in hell again. that seem odd to anyone else?

No. Men use the same method of dealing with criminals. A man murders his neighbor, many witnesses, he goes to jail. These days he might be let out free if meeting a bond, promising to be in court. Many remain in jail without bond, there being no person willing to risk the investment in his liberty. The day of judgment comes when the jury comes in and the judge sentences, at least justifying time incarcerated.
God knows before the trial who will be judged guilty before the sinner's peers, will be seen Just in his dealings.

 

[dcontroversal]

will animals be resurected to be throw in the lake of fire and go to heaven ?
If the dead mankind are conscious that means that their is a conscious dead animal kingdom of hell and heaven

Not that I am aware of as animals neither sin and or contradict the word of God, cannot be born again and nothing said about them being in the book of life or written in the book of life

 

[john832]

Both of your statements amaze me......

1. Kind of hard for JESUS to bring the DEAD back from heaven with him when he comes if they are not there.<--THE DEAD in CHRIST WILL HE BRING WITH HIM

Not quite what it says...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ rise first but when?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

When?

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

So, if the dead are not raised until the return of Christ where are they? They are dead.

2. Kind of hard for Jesus to go preach to the spirits that were disobedient during the days of NOAH if he is dead

So, are these people in hell or prison? Which is it? Neither, the scripture nowhere says these spirits are men, rather they are the wicked spirits in prison. Humans have a spirit but are not spirit. They are flesh and blood. Demons on the other hand are wicked spirits. If you will look up the word spirits in the gospel accounts, you will find that wicked or evil spirits are referred to. Man is never referred to as a spirit.

3. Does paradise sound like a place where the DEAD would be

Doesn't matter what it sounds like, it is a fact that no one EVER goes to heaven...

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

No one has gone there in the past...

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And even the man after God's own heart did not go there...

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

4. He led captivity captive....

Carefully read this and then tell me where it says He led MEN captive...

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

he led captivity captive; which is expressive of Christ's conquests and triumph over sin, Satan, the world, death, and the grave; and indeed, every spiritual enemy of his and his people, especially the devil, who leads men captive at his will, and is therefore called captivity, and his principalities and powers, whom Christ has spoiled and triumphed over; the allusion is to the public triumphs of the Romans, in which captives were led in chains, and exposed to open view (s): - John Gill

5. How many people RESURRECTED when he did and WALKED AROUND after his RESURRECTION

Ah but where were they?

There is not much scripture on this but when we read this...

Mat 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

The first thing we notice is they were not in heaven, they were asleep. Dead...

Joh 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up."
Joh 11:12 Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well."
Joh 11:13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead.

Next thing is they came out of their graves, not some place called paradise, which is heaven...

2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
2Co 12:4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The place of God's throne.

Now the last thing we see here is they walked into the city and were seen by other humans.

This was a physical resurrection to physical life again.

That is all scripture tells us directly but when we read I Cor 15, I Ths 4, Heb 11 and other places we see they did not go to heaven, they are still awaiting the promise, still awaiting the resurrection to eternal life.

No offense bro, but your theology denies a lot of scriptural proof to the contrary!

None taken but it seems the scripture says what it says and all I did was quote it.

 

[john832]

Your argument is with the word of God not with me - and as for your pejorative tone well I do not care for that either - there is just no need for it! But it is telling, you were the one who began throwing Greek at me, maybe you need to learn not to bite off more then chew in that department

Now examining your point about comma - what you say is utterly irrelevant. Whilst commas in the text are later additions. If you follow the text through it is clear that the day thief thought as you do - that there was nothing between death and the resurrection, in response to that Jesus reveals a startling truth to him, notice the opening word, 'verily' Αμὴν whenever we see Jesus using that term he is revealing something important - so ask yourself what is the truth that he is seeking to reveal? Is it that the thief was right or is that the thief was wrong and that today he would be with him in paradise?

As for the rest of your scripture well most of them are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and all of them merely set scripture against scripture and in truth I feel no need to make my case further you can create pretext after pretext from your selective citation of God's word all you will but it does not make your case any more convincing - Jesus promised the thief paradise that day, he also claimed that God was the God of the living, not the dead in reference to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and he was speaking in the present tense not the future!

Lemme see, I quoted scripture and you didn't but you did make it plain that you were well versed in Greek. When someone calls you on it, then you accuse them of taking a pejorative tone?

C'mon, harden up here.

 

[john832]

No I am saying that David and Abraham are in heaven right now ...QUOTE]

And now you have a problem...

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Jesus Christ was the firstborn from the dead...

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Not Abraham.

 

[john832]

Because the bible is so clear on this matter 'Soul sleep' was unkown in the church until around the fourth century when Arnobius 'invented it' since then it has had a few adherents but has never gained acceptance in the church - today it's champions are mainly from the cults (Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians and Armstrongism)

Soul sleep? Don't remember anyone using that term but Christ did use the term sleep for death...

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Luke used the term sleep for death...

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

So did Paul...

1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

So did Peter...

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

This term is not isolated to the New Testament either...

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Uh, I am pretty sure that these all preceded Arnobius and it doesn't sound like he invented it, it was already in use.

So, since it is cults that use that term...

today it's champions are mainly from the cults (Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians and Armstrongism)

and Christ and Luke and Paul and Peter then need added to the list.

And I used a pejorative tone?

 

[john832]

Your argument is with the word of God not with me - and as for your pejorative tone well I do not care for that either - there is just no need for it! But it is telling, you were the one who began throwing Greek at me, maybe you need to learn not to bite off more then chew in that department

Now examining your point about comma - what you say is utterly irrelevant. Whilst commas in the text are later additions. If you follow the text through it is clear that the day thief thought as you do - that there was nothing between death and the resurrection, in response to that Jesus reveals a startling truth to him, notice the opening word, 'verily' Αμὴν whenever we see Jesus using that term he is revealing something important - so ask yourself what is the truth that he is seeking to reveal? Is it that the thief was right or is that the thief was wrong and that today he would be with him in paradise?

As for the rest of your scripture well most of them are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and all of them merely set scripture against scripture and in truth I feel no need to make my case further you can create pretext after pretext from your selective citation of God's word all you will but it does not make your case any more convincing - Jesus promised the thief paradise that day, he also claimed that God was the God of the living, not the dead in reference to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and he was speaking in the present tense not the future!

Nice scriptural exegesis. Oh wait, there were no scriptures used, only this statement...

As for the rest of your scripture well most of them are irrelevant to the discussion at hand

So, the scriptures are irrelevant but opinion is the proof?

As they say...

opinions vary.

 

[dcontroversal]

No I am saying that David and Abraham are in heaven right now ...QUOTE]

And now you have a problem...

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Jesus Christ was the firstborn from the dead...

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Not Abraham.

No problem here with Acts as the context dictates that Christ is Lord and the only one who can or could ASCEND into heaven....

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them which sleep in Jesus will God bring WITH HIM....Sleeping<--by implication taking a rest or repose

 

[Reformed_Baptist]

Lemme see, I quoted scripture and you didn't

Wrong I was speaking about Luke 23:43!

I also quoted scripture at some length! On post 41 of this thread I referenced not only Luke 23:43, but also Matt 22:32 and 1 Sam 28:7-19, Matt 17:1-4, Acts 7:59-60, Heb 11:1-2, Heb 12:22-24, rev 4-5, Rev 7:9, 14 I have yet to see your interaction with most of those of referenced.

Instead you responded to me by throwing a whole raft of different verse back at me, most of which are not germane to the discussion at hand - so explain why I should go through your texts when you have not given me the same courtesy?

My friend, there is a huge difference between merely quoting scripture and engaging with scripture. We are to search the scripture and study diligently - not throw out a mass of supposedly proof texts. The facts are that your interpretation of both Luke 23:43 and Matt 22:32 just do not work - I am sorry if that ruffles your feathers and causes you to reast against me!

but you did make it plain that you were well versed in Greek.

I have a little bit of education in both Greek and Hebrew but in truth I only tend to go down that route when someone else (like you brings us the subject)

When someone calls you on it, then you accuse them of taking a pejorative tone?

Let's consider to what you said:

And uh, by the way, Mr. Greek Scholar, when were commas added to the text?

How would you describe the implied tone of those comments?

on anther thread you accused me of promulgating a doctrine of Satan, again quoting you:

God says immortality is a gift that He can give, Satan says you already have it.

All according to whom you wish to believe.

And you later confirmed that you believe the church has been teaching a doctrine of satan.

Are these sort of comments that encourages friendly dialogue or are they designed to stop conversation?

C'mon, harden up here.

It's not a question of toughness on my part - but politeness on yours!

The truth is my friend, that I interacted with you on two threads at some length, both of them have involved your holding to doctrines that are at best heterodox and both of them have resulted in insults from you - why should I bother to continue to discuss matters of theology with you when it seems so clear you don't want a dialogue just a monologue?

 

[prove-all]

Man and animal are both breathing animals

The word “soul” is translated from Hebrew, the word nephesh.

The Hebrew nephesh merely means a breathing animal

animals are called nephesh in: Genesis 1:20, “moving creature” (Hebrew, nephesh);

Genesis 1:21, “great whales, and every living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh);

Genesis 1:24, “living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh).

The translators in translating into the English language used the English word “creature
but in Genesis 2:7 they translated the same nephesh into the English word “soul”

—man became a “living soul” (nephesh).

The word nephesh literally means “life of animals,” referring to physical life and not spirit

-Satan’s lie to mother Eve that man is immortal and cannot die.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

Therefore the soul is physical, composed of matter, and can die.

 

[john832]

Man and animal are both breathing animals

The word “soul” is translated from Hebrew, the word nephesh.

The Hebrew nephesh merely means a breathing animal

animals are called nephesh in: Genesis 1:20, “moving creature” (Hebrew, nephesh);

Genesis 1:21, “great whales, and every living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh);

Genesis 1:24, “living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh).

The translators in translating into the English language used the English word “creature
but in Genesis 2:7 they translated the same nephesh into the English word “soul”

—man became a “living soul” (nephesh).

The word nephesh literally means “life of animals,” referring to physical life and not spirit

-Satan’s lie to mother Eve that man is immortal and cannot die.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

Therefore the soul is physical, composed of matter, and can die.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to prove-all again.

 

[ELECT]

Not that I am aware of as animals neither sin and or contradict the word of God, cannot be born again and nothing said about them being in the book of life or written in the book of life

interesting that animals have a spirit and it will cease to exist God is going to do the same with the wicked

 

[ELECT]

No problem here with Acts as the context dictates that Christ is Lord and the only one who can or could ASCEND into heaven....

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them which sleep in Jesus will God bring WITH HIM....Sleeping<--by implication taking a rest or repose

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

No one is in heaven

 

[Reformed_Baptist]

Man and animal are both breathing animals

The word “soul” is translated from Hebrew, the word nephesh.

The Hebrew nephesh merely means a breathing animal

animals are called nephesh in: Genesis 1:20, “moving creature” (Hebrew, nephesh);

Genesis 1:21, “great whales, and every living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh);

Genesis 1:24, “living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh).

The translators in translating into the English language used the English word “creature
but in Genesis 2:7 they translated the same nephesh into the English word “soul”

—man became a “living soul” (nephesh).

The word nephesh literally means “life of animals,” referring to physical life and not spirit

No it doesn't - as a review of any lexical source will make plain to those who care to look.

In context it is being used as an adjective that basically gives it a semantic domain that ranges from alive/ living through to words like vigorous (2 Sam 23:20), even lively, fresh and raw (Lev 14:5). It does not mean 'life of animals' though as is made plain in the way it is used in regards to the life of God - see Nu 14:21 Ruth 3:13, 1 Sam 14:45, Jer 22:24 and Dan 12:7 to name just a few where 'nepesh' is use in relation to the life of God.

-Satan’s lie to mother Eve that man is immortal and cannot die.

No, Satan said she 'would not die' he never said she was immortal. he contradicted God's promise of death following the eating of the fruit - you are investing a meaning into his words that simply is not there, furthermore it is a meaning that makes God's threat of death meaningless. The point is that Adam and Eve would not die as long as they didn't eat the fruit - they were created in a world in which death did not exist, which is why we read that death is a result (wage) of sin Rom 6:23

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

Therefore the soul is physical, composed of matter, and can die.

No, the body is physical, composed of matter, and can die (physically) that is what returned to the earth - this becomes extremely clear when we allow scripture to interpret itself instead of forcing meanings into it, take for example Ecc 12:7 which says, Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. The word Spirit there is Hebrew ר֣וּחַ (ruach) which has a semantic range of: air in motion, blowing, wind, what is empty or transitory, spirit, mind - now apply this to what we know of Adam's creation, and what we read about his returning to dust.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being Notice there are two steps to the creation of Adam - first he is formed from the dust of the earth - that alone set him apart from the animal world that was created by God's voice alone! When it comes to man God uses his hands! However Adam isn't alive yet that doesn't happen until God breathes into his nostrils the breath of life ( חַיִּ֑ים נִשְׁמַ֣ת ) ​- so bearing in mind the further revelation of Ecc 12:7 we can say that the part of use formed from the dust returns to the dust and the part of us given by God returns to him again if we allow scripture to interpret scripture we see that we return to him after death to be judged, Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment. That word after is a preposition, it is in the accusative, then means 'following on from on' or 'after' it doesn't really allow for anything in between - so immediately we die we face the judgement - how can we do that if we are just dust?