Are there two gospels or ONE?

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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#81
… 1 of which is preached in the wrong dispensation, leading to destruction.
This is the crux, as I see it.

OUR citizenship [though "ambassadors" HERE on earth, presently] IS in Heaven (speaking of "the Church which is His body" Eph1:20-23 "WHEN"). We are not to "mind" Israel's earthly things. [but Col3:1-4 INSTEAD!]


And what you say is true, as it pertains to the CHRONOLOGY/TIMING issues... that many folks blur together into one mish-mash of mess, as though every passage is saying the same exact thing with no discernible differences in their perception.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#82
Let me just say that I don't see anyone here evidencing anything like they are John-Hagee-ites, or something (as some have said he teaches "two gospels [existing] IN THE SAME TIME PERIOD"--I don't know if he does, as I don't listen to him, I'm just using this as an EXAMPLE of what ppl usually mean when they speak of "two gospels")
 

Rightlydivided

Active member
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
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#83
This is the crux, as I see it.

OUR citizenship [though "ambassadors" HERE on earth, presently] IS in Heaven (speaking of "the Church which is His body" Eph1:20-23 "WHEN"). We are not to "mind" Israel's earthly things. [but Col3:1-4 INSTEAD!]


And what you say is true, as it pertains to the CHRONOLOGY/TIMING issues... that many folks blur together into one mish-mash of mess, as though every passage is saying the same exact thing with no discernible differences in their perception.
Well said, amen!
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#84
At the last supper Jesus said " i go to prepare a place for you,that where i am you may be also..."
That is heaven.
It all happens in heaven
I really don't know what you are meaning when you say "it ALL happens in heaven"... "ALL" what? The promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (in heaven, you mean?)… Or are you limiting your "It" to what Jesus said in the passage you quoted ^ ?
 

Rightlydivided

Active member
Dec 26, 2018
437
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#85
Let me just say that I don't see anyone here evidencing anything like they are John-Hagee-ites, or something (as some have said he teaches "two gospels [existing] IN THE SAME TIME PERIOD"--I don't know if he does, as I don't listen to him, I'm just using this as an EXAMPLE of what ppl usually mean when they speak of "two gospels")
Let me just say that I don't see anyone here evidencing anything like they are John-Hagee-ites, or something (as some have said he teaches "two gospels [existing] IN THE SAME TIME PERIOD"--I don't know if he does, as I don't listen to him, I'm just using this as an EXAMPLE of what ppl usually mean when they speak of "two gospels")
Well, the discussion has been, wether or not, The gospel preached by John the Baptist , Jesus Christ, and the twelve appostles, during Christ’s earthly ministry, was synonymous, to the gospel, preached by Paul, after his earthly ministry, considering the death, burial, resurrection, grace, works meet repentance, and anything else in the kitchen, that you can throw into the longest sentence ever created by man.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
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#86
The gospel was first preached to Abraham.

Romans 4, David had the same imputation thing going on we do today.

I demand an immediate shutdown of the Dallas theological cemetary
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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#87
I really don't know what you are meaning when you say "it ALL happens in heaven"... "ALL" what? The promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (in heaven, you mean?)… Or are you limiting your "It" to what Jesus said in the passage you quoted ^ ?
Marriage supper or feast.
The bride is gathered,then the jewish remnant. To Heaven. To the marriage and supper.

That is why the bride has become the wife in heaven in rev 19.

That is what Jesus is referring to at the last supper.

The reason John 146 makes it say something else is because his eschatology NEEDS it to say the feast is on earth.

As a matter of fact,the kingdom of heaven IS IN HEAVEN. the kingdom of God is where his throne is....
....ahem...in heaven
The earth is re purchased by the kinsman redeemer in rev 5 during or right before the gt.
Rev 19 has the wife coming with the groom back to earth.
The dialog at the last supper depicts what the gathering is for. A heavenly dwelling,a marriage,and a feast.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#88
I don't need the feast postponed to earth.
I just call it like it is.

It is vividly depicted.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#89
Well, the discussion has been, wether or not, The gospel preached by John the Baptist , Jesus Christ, and the twelve appostles, during Christ’s earthly ministry, was synonymous, to the gospel, preached by Paul, after his earthly ministry, considering the death, burial, resurrection, grace, works meet repentance, and anything else in the kitchen, that you can throw into the longest sentence ever created by man.
The problem as i see it,is the "paulites" making it some mega issue.

The bible is the word of God.

Where do we get the term "born again"?

Out of the mouth of Jesus.

( the one the paulites say was teaching the law,works,kingdom of God error)

Thats right. Carry their non issue to it's logical end,and we have Jesus not knowing what he is talking about.
We also have the early Jewish church as into some pseudo truth,as well as the " other" ( non pauline) books not inspired by the Holy Spirit.
 

Rightlydivided

Active member
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
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#90
The gospel was first preached to Abraham.

Romans 4, David had the same imputation thing going on we do today.

I demand an immediate shutdown of the Dallas theological cemetary
You said in a previous post “dispensationalists have found a way to bypass repentance”, obviously there are several definitions to the word repentance, as God even repented. What definition of repentance are you referring to, and do you believe this to be the motive for dispensationalism?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
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#91
You said in a previous post “dispensationalists have found a way to bypass repentance”, obviously there are several definitions to the word repentance, as God even repented. What definition of repentance are you referring to, and do you believe this to be the motive for dispensationalism?
Im referring to the definition of: A new creation in Christ, a changed life after salvation. Producing fruit. Sanctification

Not just mere mental acknowledgement and repeating a prayer. But genuine born again new creature in Christ.

I believe in PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS. The true saints will persevere in the faith. here is more on that:

https://carm.org/what-is-perseverance-of-the-saints
 

Rightlydivided

Active member
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
43
#92
The problem as i see it,is the "paulites" making it some mega issue.

The bible is the word of God.

Where do we get the term "born again"?

Out of the mouth of Jesus.

( the one the paulites say was teaching the law,works,kingdom of God error)

Thats right. Carry their non issue to it's logical end,and we have Jesus not knowing what he is talking about.
We also have the early Jewish church as into some pseudo truth,as well as the " other" ( non pauline) books not inspired by the Holy Spirit.
So anyone that believes that John the Baptist, Jesus, and the twelve deciples were preaching the Kingdom, are considering it an error? No one that I have spoken to on this subject believes it to be an error. Furthermore, Paul was explicit that he preached the message first unto them(gentiles) upon receiving the gospel from Jesus......why would Jesus intervene, if after the commission Matthew 28, he told them to preach unto all the nations? Were the twelve deciples incapable of creating missionaries to preach the gospel unto the gentiles themselves, per Christ’s word?
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
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#93
What better news than God will forgive us of all of our sins and trespasses?
It was prophesied and demonstrated beginning in Genesis with the animal skins provided, by God, to replace mans attempt to cover his sins.
The prophets spoke in detail of a coming Messiah.

Many believed what God had said, and were forgiven, which resulted in a life of faith. They looked forward to the Messiah.

Many today believe what God has promised, we look back and believe He did send His Son, as our Messiah, and we too live a life of faith.

That is the one gospel. The rest is just gravy.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#94
gee

how many ways for salvation do we have?

(Sabbath keepers and Calvinists please do not respond (jking :LOL:)
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,481
695
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#95
gee

how many ways for salvation do we have?

(Sabbath keepers and Calvinists please do not respond (jking :LOL:)
There can be only three answers;
1) One

2) One, but....

3) Many
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
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#96
gee

how many ways for salvation do we have?

(Sabbath keepers and Calvinists please do not respond (jking :LOL:)
I think the debate at hand is not about ways unto eternal salvation, but the different gospel messages. Gospel simply means good news.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,481
695
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#97
I think the debate at hand is not about ways unto eternal salvation, but the different gospel messages. Gospel simply means good news.
The term gospel encompasses all aspects of salvation. To dissect its use and assign different meanings to it is in error, or splitting hairs, when a comb is a better choice.

There are six uses of the term gospel in the New Testament:

  • The gospel of Christ; Rom. 1:16,17, “I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ…” This is an emphasis on the person of the gospel.
  • My gospel, Rom. 2:16 This means that the gospel belongs to every believer.
  • Our gospel, 2 Cor. 4:3,4. This verse speaks of the believer’s possession of the gospel and the importance of communicating it as God gives opportunity in witnessing.
  • The gospel of peace, Eph. 6:15. This emphasizes the doctrine of reconciliation in the gospel.
  • The everlasting gospel, Rev. 14:6. This emphasizes the proximity of eternity for unbelievers during the tribulation.
  • The gospel of the kingdom, Matt. 24:14. This emphasizes the fulfillment of the unconditional covenant to the born again of Israel.
The fundamentals of the gospel are given in 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

  • Christ died as a substitute for our sins. His death means It is finished!
  • Christ died physically and was buried
  • Christ rose from the dead
The enemy of the gospel is Satan who is the ruler of this world, 2 Cor. 4:3,4.

The believer’s attitude toward the gospel is expressed in these verses:

Rom. 1:16, 20;; 1 Cor. 1:17;9:1

The term encompasses all these aspects, not one or the other.
 

Rightlydivided

Active member
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
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#98
Im referring to the definition of: A new creation in Christ, a changed life after salvation. Producing fruit. Sanctification

Not just mere mental acknowledgement and repeating a prayer. But genuine born again new creature in Christ.

I believe in PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS. The true saints will persevere in the faith. here is more on that:

https://carm.org/what-is-perseverance-of-the-saints
I will read it later.

The topical repentance/works is obviously the root of our indifference. It could prob use a thread of its own, although I’m sure it has been discussed...I think it deserves all of our attention.

Your doctrine (The majority) seems to be motivated by “your trying to take our guns away” meaning, your ability to recognize another Christian by his/her actions(in the flesh)..and council against them by means of treating them as non believers, or anything of the like. Allowing this, when (every man is a liar), all fall short of the glory, not one is good, no not one, seems to be an inability, or mode of self-preservation in the flesh...Many of you say “it is not judging” (repentance/works opens the doors wide) but do not contemplate it from the perspective of the subject you have entered in council against....

I could tell you story after story of destruction in the family, because someone got it in there head, that a family member was sinning(all the while admitting they sin themselves, but are repentful and confess of it)...this leaves the discernment to everyone in your congregation, whom we know make mistakes, and according to scripture, is guilty of the same..unknowingly, your doctrine, gives your congregation, the license to judge the heart of a man...falsely accusing his brethren, and family members while knowing full well, that mistakes will be made. False accusations will always hurt the other members (I made a mistake, I’m human) well this is not your ordinary mistake, it is a very serious mistake, pertaining to a mans eternity.

This mistake, falsely accusing a brethren( it happens on a scale much larger than you think) based of “repentance/works”. Pushes many away from the church...all from “allowing through doctrine” a mistake of human error. You feel comfortable allowing man, and all the flaws that acompany us per scripture (as filthy rags, repented of by God, fallen, all are liars, all fall short of the glory) a ticket to judge?

You say we are only desiring a ticket to sin (as the Galatians asked Paul) “shall we not sin so that grace may abound?” Same problem today....you believe we are motivated by a desire to sin freely, without rebuke, from our fleshly brothers. I believe you desire a ticket to judge, maybe you have not looked at this for the perspective of: If God knows, how corrupt we are, ( I would say it is obvious what he had to do) Do you really think he we leave us to our own devices?

You may not see it, but this doctrine is abused in more ways than you know, it has inundated the Church as the majority, and continues to tear apart families....God knew this, that man should not judge man through his gospel of today...it makes a mockery of the Holy Spirit, and I promise you, that the mistakes, of false accusations, as the watchful eye of your congregation, conspires falsely, maintains a tribal mentality, at the peril of human error, will not bring the message of grace.

This doctrine, continues to ring the bell of “shame, shame, shame, shame” and most, that apply their judgement on their brethren (treating as a non believer ) are getting it wrong....so it is folly, it is also damaging to the body of Christ. Sin should be hated because of what Christ did to resolve it, and the damage it caused while under its yoke..not because of fear, that your brethren will see it in you, as he gazes in the mirror.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#99
I will read it later.

The topical repentance/works is obviously the root of our indifference. It could prob use a thread of its own, although I’m sure it has been discussed...I think it deserves all of our attention.

Your doctrine (The majority) seems to be motivated by “your trying to take our guns away” meaning, your ability to recognize another Christian by his/her actions(in the flesh)..and council against them by means of treating them as non believers, or anything of the like. Allowing this, when (every man is a liar), all fall short of the glory, not one is good, no not one, seems to be an inability, or mode of self-preservation in the flesh...Many of you say “it is not judging” (repentance/works opens the doors wide) but do not contemplate it from the perspective of the subject you have entered in council against....

I could tell you story after story of destruction in the family, because someone got it in there head, that a family member was sinning(all the while admitting they sin themselves, but are repentful and confess of it)...this leaves the discernment to everyone in your congregation, whom we know make mistakes, and according to scripture, is guilty of the same..unknowingly, your doctrine, gives your congregation, the license to judge the heart of a man...falsely accusing his brethren, and family members while knowing full well, that mistakes will be made. False accusations will always hurt the other members (I made a mistake, I’m human) well this is not your ordinary mistake, it is a very serious mistake, pertaining to a mans eternity.

This mistake, falsely accusing a brethren( it happens on a scale much larger than you think) based of “repentance/works”. Pushes many away from the church...all from “allowing through doctrine” a mistake of human error. You feel comfortable allowing man, and all the flaws that acompany us per scripture (as filthy rags, repented of by God, fallen, all are liars, all fall short of the glory) a ticket to judge?

You say we are only desiring a ticket to sin (as the Galatians asked Paul) “shall we not sin so that grace may abound?” Same problem today....you believe we are motivated by a desire to sin freely, without rebuke, from our fleshly brothers. I believe you desire a ticket to judge, maybe you have not looked at this for the perspective of: If God knows, how corrupt we are, ( I would say it is obvious what he had to do) Do you really think he we leave us to our own devices?

You may not see it, but this doctrine is abused in more ways than you know, it has inundated the Church as the majority, and continues to tear apart families....God knew this, that man should not judge man through his gospel of today...it makes a mockery of the Holy Spirit, and I promise you, that the mistakes, of false accusations, as the watchful eye of your congregation, conspires falsely, maintains a tribal mentality, at the peril of human error, will not bring the message of grace.

This doctrine, continues to ring the bell of “shame, shame, shame, shame” and most, that apply their judgement on their brethren (treating as a non believer ) are getting it wrong....so it is folly, it is also damaging to the body of Christ. Sin should be hated because of what Christ did to resolve it, and the damage it caused while under its yoke..not because of fear, that your brethren will see it in you, as he gazes in the mirror.

So true.

Sadly.....Perseverance is another destructive doctrine.

A perfect set up for fruit inspectors and the ultimate often stated condemnation .... "oh they were never saved to begin with"
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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Context is critical. Those words were spoken to the Jews who were looking for a conquering Messiah at the first coming of Christ. But that was not to be. However, the Kingdom of God will indeed be real, visible, and tangible on earth, when He comes the second time *with power and great glory*.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Mt 25:31,32)
Nah, totally wrong - the kingdom of God has never been observable (or will be) - you are attempting to change the kingdom's nature to one that fits in with a bogus second coming and physical kingdom "theology".