Are Those Who Have Fallen Away in Hebrews 6:4-8 Born-Again?

[Whispered]

Yeah I understand what YOUR perspective is. But YOU said THIS:


So I'm asking where in Scripture it says ANY of the Elect WILL be deceived? Can you show me where in Scripture it says that?

The Book of Mark chapter 13 22For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
The Book of Matthew chapter 24:24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

 

[PennEd]

The Book of Mark chapter 13 22For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
The Book of Matthew chapter 24:24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Yep.

I noted that verse. Why have you purposefully neglected to HIGHLIGHT IF POSSIBLE?


That clearly means that it is NOT possible, or it would not be in the verse.

The verse would say: For false messiah's and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive EVEN the elect.

Or it would have said ..... deceive SOME of the elect. But it doesn't say that does it?

 

[mailmandan]

Yep.
I noted that verse. Why have you purposefully neglected to HIGHLIGHT IF POSSIBLE?

That clearly means that it is NOT possible, or it would not be in the verse.

The verse would say: For false messiah's and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive EVEN the elect.

Or it would have said ..... deceive SOME of the elect. But it doesn't say that does it?

Amen! If the Elect could be deceived to the point of permanently falling away, then they would not be the Elect. The KJV reads - ".. if it were possible.."

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Scripture please. Book, chapter and verse.

Romans 10:1-2-3, Paul prayed for the people of Israel, which were already saved (delivered) eternally by their evidence of having a zeal of God, that they would be saved (delivered) from their lack of knowledge. 2 Pet 2:5, And spared not the old world, but saved (delivered) Noah, not eternally but delivered (saved) him from drowning. Gen 6:8-9, And Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God, which indicates Noah was a spiritual man unlike the natural man as described in 1 Cor 2:14. Acts 2:40, Save (deliver) yourselves from this untoward generation. We can deliver (save) ourselves from this generation, but we can not deliver (save) ourselves eternally.

 

[Whispered]

Yep.

I noted that verse. Why have you purposefully neglected to HIGHLIGHT IF POSSIBLE?


That clearly means that it is NOT possible, or it would not be in the verse.

The verse would say: For false messiah's and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive EVEN the elect.

Or it would have said ..... deceive SOME of the elect. But it doesn't say that does it?

Oh, my.

Why did you ignore Jesus teaching in all of Matthew 24? Wherein he stated false teachers shall lead many astray? He's speaking to his Disciples, the saints , the elect of God, and warning about the elect of God being led astray.

24 And Jesus went out from the temple, and was going on his way; and his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered and said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray. Astray= πλανάω planaō


Why would I highlight if possible, when it is there to inform of the possibility. If it was impossible the verse would have gave assurance of the impossibility.

The Book of 2nd Timothy chapter 3 verse 13
Astray=πλανάω planaō

 

[Whispered]

Oh, my.

Why did you ignore Jesus teaching in all of Matthew 24? Wherein he stated false teachers shall lead many astray? He's speaking to his Disciples, the saints , the elect of God, and warning about the elect of God being led astray.

24 And Jesus went out from the temple, and was going on his way; and his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered and said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray. Astray= πλανάω planaō


Why would I highlight if possible, when it is there to inform of the possibility. If it was impossible the verse would have gave assurance of the impossibility.

The Book of 2nd Timothy chapter 3 verse 13
Astray=πλανάω planaō

The Abomination of Desolation
…23At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25See, I have told you in advance.…

Matthew 24:5For many will come in My name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

Matthew 24:11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Amen! If the Elect could be deceived to the point of permanently falling away, then they would not be the Elect. The KJV reads - ".. if it were possible.."

But it is possible for the elect to turn away from the truth and are in need of repentance, but not lost eternally.

 

[PennEd]

Oh, my.

Why did you ignore Jesus teaching in all of Matthew 24? Wherein he stated false teachers shall lead many astray? He's speaking to his Disciples, the saints , the elect of God, and warning about the elect of God being led astray.

24 And Jesus went out from the temple, and was going on his way; and his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered and said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray. Astray= πλανάω planaō


Why would I highlight if possible, when it is there to inform of the possibility. If it was impossible the verse would have gave assurance of the impossibility.

The Book of 2nd Timothy chapter 3 verse 13
Astray=πλανάω planaō

Read that thrice. As well as 2 Timothy 3. Doesn't say ANYWHERE that born again Children of God, the Elect, are deceived or lose their Salvation. That is ALL YOUR private interpretation.

In Matthew 24
I didn't read where He used the word ELECT. I see him use MANY, but I don't see Him using Elect. YOU, are inserting or assuming, or reading into what He is saying.

And the "if possible" is ABSOLUTELY there to highlight that it is NOT possible, or there would be no point of even putting it there!

Please show me, as you said, where it says THE ELECT WILL BE DECEIVED in Scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

But it is possible for the elect to turn away from the truth and are in need of repentance, but not lost eternally.

The elect can stumble or temporarily fall away, as we see in Matthew 26:31-32. The 11 remaining disciples at the time of Jesus' arrest were said to "stumble" or "fall away" and Peter even denied Jesus three times! But nothing is mentioned about them permanently falling away or losing their salvation.

Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.”

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[Whispered]

But it is possible for the elect to turn away from the truth and are in need of repentance, but not lost eternally.

But there are those in this forum that say the elect can be lost, lose their salvation.
If the elect of God cannot be lost, ever, why does Jesus warn against being deceived? If it would matter not that they were. Or will be, as scriptures do state.

 

[Whispered]

Read that thrice. As well as 2 Timothy 3. Doesn't say ANYWHERE that born again Children of God, the Elect, are deceived or lose their Salvation. That is ALL YOUR private interpretation.

In Matthew 24
I didn't read where He used the word ELECT. I see him use MANY, but I don't see Him using Elect. YOU, are inserting or assuming, or reading into what He is saying.

And the "if possible" is ABSOLUTELY there to highlight that it is NOT possible, or there would be no point of even putting it there!

Please show me, as you said, where it says THE ELECT WILL BE DECEIVED in Scripture.

You are ignoring the scripture to satisfy your dedication to TULIP.
God help you.
TULIP is anti-Christ teaching and heresy. Your arguments are proof of scripture fulfilled. The elect can and are deceived. TULIP is of the Devil.
God help you. And all that defend , even at the expense of Christ's own words, that dread "flower" of Hell.
1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[PennEd]

The Abomination of Desolation
…23At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25See, I have told you in advance.…

Matthew 24:5For many will come in My name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

Matthew 24:11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

You just did it again!

Jesus says "if that were possible" Why are you unable to see that means it is NOT possible?

 

[JadenS]

Hello again @JadenS, I think the other problem with this passage, Hebrews 6:4-6 (for the churches who use it to teach that a true believer can lose his/her salvation) is this .. it says too much. I say this because, while they teach that a believer can lose his/her salvation (on the one hand), they also teach that a believer, who has lost their salvation, can get it back (on the other), which is something that this passage clearly tells us is "impossible" (see the text below in bold).

Hebrews 6​

4 In the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,​

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,​

6 and then have fallen away, it is ~impossible~ to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​

~Deut

I always assumed it is impossible for someone to be born-again and fallen away at the same time.

 

[PennEd]

You are ignoring the scripture to satisfy your dedication to TULIP.
God help you. 0.-

Ha! I'm not a TULIP adherent. But you are on such a mission to try and hurt those that are, you don't even care that it is YOU that is being deceptive!

You hold your OWN flower. It's called the DAISY...


And you sit there and pluck the petals off one by one saying..... "The Lord Loves me, uh oh! He loves me not....."

I pray that last petal you pluck is on a HE LOVES ME! Because that would mean you FINALLY understand that He will NEVER leave nor forsake HIS CHILDREN!

 

[Whispered]

Ha! I'm not a TULIP adherent. But you are on such a mission to try and hurt those that are, you don't even care that it is YOU that is being deceptive!

You hold your OWN flower. It's called the DAISY...


And you sit there and pluck the petals off one by one saying..... "The Lord Loves me, uh oh! He loves me not....."

I pray that last petal you pluck is on a HE LOVES ME! Because that would mean you FINALLY understand that He will NEVER leave nor forsake HIS CHILDREN!

No, I don't hold to DAISY either. But I have read you defend TULIP. The truth is not in you.

 

[PennEd]

No, I don't hold to DAISY either. But I have read you defend TULIP. The truth is not in you.

You must be thinking of someone else.

Because although I may defend aspects of Calvinism, Eternal Security for instance, I DON'T defend other aspects, like limited atonement for instance.

But when I defend parts, like Eternal Security, it is only because not only is there overwhelming Scriptural evidence for it, not anything John Calvin said, but also personal revelation from the Holy Spirit, THROUGH the Word.

Are you a born again Child of the One True King? Are you His daughter?

Do you REALLY believe YOU could DO something that would cause Him to throw His little girl into the lake of fire? What do you think HE thinks about you believing He would do that?

He TELLS us in many places He won't. He will do whatever is necessary to discipline HIS Children to bring those that wander away back to Him. Why would He do that?

BECAUSE YOU'RE HIS CHILD!! I mean how could you think He would destroy you?


Remember, I'm talking about those that are HIS Children. It is perfectly acceptable to examine yourself to make sure you are, and have not deceived yourself into only thinking you are.

 

[Whispered]

You must be thinking of someone else.

Because although I may defend aspects of Calvinism, Eternal Security for instance, I DON'T defend other aspects, like limited atonement for instance.

But when I defend parts, like Eternal Security, it is only because not only is there overwhelming Scriptural evidence for it, not anything John Calvin said, but also personal revelation from the Holy Spirit, THROUGH the Word.

Brother, you just responded and proved I am not thinking of someone else.
I said:"But I have read you defend TULIP. " You don't have to defend all of it so as to admit you accept parts of it.
Do you believe the "T" of TULIP is correct and applies to you?

 

[PennEd]

Brother, you just responded and proved I am not thinking of someone else.
I said:"But I have read you defend TULIP. " You don't have to defend all of it so as to admit you accept parts of it.
Do you believe the "T" of TULIP is correct and applies to you?

You didn't answer my questions. Not gonna move forward with another letter till this one is squared away.

Are YOU a born again Child of God?

And if so, do you REALLY believe you can do something that will cause Your ABBA to toss His little girl into the lake of fire?

 

[garee]

Yes believing Is seeing (so to speak) for those In faith, but for the world Seeing Is believing.

It makes it crucial in looking at the foundation of the doctrine of God. Hebrew 6 . We cannot offer what we perform outwardly toward God as our confidence. Our confidence is. . he promises us if he has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it to the end the last day. (Philippian 1:6) Our living hope that moves us forward is the hope of new incorruptible bodies. . . all die not receiving..Hope seen is not hope


Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?


Hebrews 11:1Now faith (Christ's) is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. . . . . Let there be and there is.

Our new born again faith that we have been freely given is not of us. But is the faith of Christ working in us giving us ears to hear and a willing heart to submit.

Hebrews 6:1 King James Version (KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God , Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

The phrase above " not laying again" represents them that fall away to renew them again and again .They crucify Christ over and over again and again as if one work was not enough for him to satisfy the just demands of the law. We are not saved by the faith we have towards him but rather that which works in us coming from him . Our amen so be it.


Hebrews ^: 6 King James Version (KJV) 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

God is not served by the temporal things seen. The laying on hands of men .They are ceremonial in nature .They do not move one closer or create a distance. . simply shadows of a hope .

 

[Dino246]

Hebrews 6:1 King James Version (KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God , Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

The phrase above " not laying again" represents them that fall away to renew them again and again .

No, it doesn't. It means repeating the elementary lessons over and over without moving on. The NASB is much clearer in this: "Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity...."

We are not saved by the faith we have towards him but rather that which works in us coming from him .[/QUOTE]
Explain how Christ hopes for things that He does not see, which is part of the definition of faith given in Hebrews 11:1. I have addressed this matter previously and you have not responded.