Are you a body with a soul, or a soul with a body?

[Whomsoever]

How can one become a member of the new covenant apart from faith?

I don't know. How?
I went back and read what you had quoted when asking this question and I understand the confusion.

Those who are not born of the Spirit, do not go from being dead in their sins to being one of the 'living' and having the hope of eternal life in Christ, so not only do they remain one of the dead WHILE living in the flesh and blood body, they also remain one of the dead while in the grave.

Better?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I don't know. How?
I went back and read what you had quoted when asking this question and I understand the confusion.

Those who are not born of the Spirit, do not go from being dead in their sins to being one of the 'living' and having the hope of eternal life in Christ, so not only do they remain one of the dead WHILE living in the flesh and blood body, they also remain one of the dead while in the grave.

Better?

Ah that makes sense

 

[Whomsoever]

Are you saying we are immortal.

No. I am saying we don't all experience death and dying and life awards the same. If we did, there would have been no need for the New Covenant, and righteousness would still be of the law. But under the New Covenant, we are freed from the penalty of sin, which is death. So, no death for those who are saved,

At the death of the flesh and blood body, which happens to ALL, both the saved and the unsaved, THE SAVED rise up and follow Him, to go to the place where He is, the place prepared for us, and we know exactly how that takes place by the words of God in 1 Corinth 15. And all Christians admit to 'rising' at the common death but then seem to ADD to what is written with their own theories. If 'rising' without a body is written somewhere, please show me. If returning without a body is written somewhere, please show me. If a decaying flesh and blood body will be resurrected from the corrupt earth written somewhere, again, please show me because I can't find it. I find things written to the contrary.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


There is no question as to a body or not a body, the question is as to WHICH BODY

What do we sow? Nothing but dirt going back to dirt and our works. Our works are not air, we are not just air either. Our works are a part of our being, a living body and soul. Thank God we have two bodies. One body dies bringing the other to life as we KEEP LIVING on...


37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

Our works will help in determining what 'grain' we sow, and what ever grain that turns out to be...


38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

We read of these differences

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.


This body dying produces the seed that God gives a body to. At what point do this 'change' take place?


42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:


This is what I am looking for someone. WHERE is it written 'it is raised as 'air' or 'wind' or even 'a bodyless spirit'? Incorruption is tangible.


43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:

When we ascend up into heaven, are we not raised in glory at that time? Do we return to be raised up from some of the decay?



it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


Sown a natural, raised a spiritual. What I need to read to believe anything else is 'it is sown a natural, it is raised COMPLETELY WITHOUT ANY BODY and it will be returned to THEN be raised a spiritual from the decay.




45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.



48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

The Flesh and blood soul is either BORN of the Spirit which is heavenly, or remains of the earth being without the Spirit of life and dead in trespasses and sin, one of the dead.



49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.



Where is it written we will BEAR NO BODY for any amount of time?


And it always, for me, comes down to this verse

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

the dead are raised incorruptible but not immortal as the dead still face the 2nd death when the dead are judged at the GWTJ.

If there is Scripture that clearly puts forth what this does, please share it. I am searching for Truth in what is written but not in what is 'meant' as one is definite and the other has many many differing 'truths'.

 

[Whomsoever]

The resurrection has not happened
Those dead in Christ are waiting for the day, but they know nothing.

Take all those verses and read them without the 'delay' that is not written. Follow Me can't mean WAIT for My return and rise. We RISE up to heaven when this body dies. Not at a 'last day'. That 'last day' was a belief of those under the Old Covenant

 

[GWH]

Outstanding...

And more importantly, we are souls with a body and the spirit/mind of Christ (1CR 2:16) as we humbly (MIC 6:8) learn GW (MT 11:29) from the HS (JN 16:12-14), confessing our finiteness and fallibility (1CR 15:9), walking by faith (2CR 5:7) and having assurance/confidence of salvation (2CR 3:4) as we persevere in faith/LGW (2CR 2:15-17, 3:5). :^)

 

[TMS]

Flesh and Spirit are used extensively by Paul to explain the carnal nature verses the Godly nature.. we are carnal by nature and have inherited this sin problem that results in us all dieing..

1Co 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

So we all die because of sin. Sin = death.

But we have hope ...Christ will raise the saved... Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

1Th 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

This answers your question.

We are corrupted by inherited sin and a sinful world. But at the resurrection we will no longer be impacted by sin.

Sin is a choice. We will still have choice but with perfect physical bodies, perfect mental and spiritual minds we will not choose to sin and therefore be free from corruption.
1Co 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We shall all be changed ... notice in 1 Thes 4:16 the dead or those that sleep are raised first.... then the living are raised to meet them in the air.. all are changed at this point.
Justification is forgiveness
Sanctification is giving up self
And Glorification is when God transforms us into His image.

Paul talks about the battle between the flesh and the Spirit, and how we need to die or crucify the flesh.. this is a daily battle leading up to the glorification. The resurrection. The resurrection of the dead happens when Jesus returns

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

While reading the thread about Baptism of the Holy Spirit, this thought came to me that I thought might be ignored in a thread that's so involved. Do you consider yourself a body, with a spirit and with an eternal soul, or an eternal soul that has a temporal body that's governed by a God given spirit?

It sound like a dumb question until you think and pray about it for a bit.

Are you a body with a soul, or a soul with a body?

 

[Whomsoever]

We shall all be changed ... notice in 1 Thes 4:16 the dead or those that sleep are raised first.... then the living are raised to meet them in the air.. all are changed at this point.

Could you please explain how Jesus could have said this, if the reply above is true?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at His doctrine.

an adjective, and the same word used in 1 Thes 4:16 also as an adjective, with dead having the meaning of deceased, lifeless, subject to death, mortal


and used here in Matt 8

21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 22But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

 

[posthuman]

He called Lazarus "dead" only when the apostles failed to understand what He meant by saying he was asleep.

to God those who have life, never die. He gives them life, and no one can snatch out of His hand.

 

[ewq1938]

to God those who have life, never die.

But they all died. All die. The key to this is understanding that saved Christians never die the second death but all die the first death. There are some who are the exception like a couple from the OT and some survivors at the time of the s4econd coming but for thousands of years, all the faithful have died the first death.

 

[Whomsoever]

But they all died. All die. The key to this is understanding that saved Christians never die the second death but all die the first death. There are some who are the exception like a couple from the OT and some survivors at the time of the s4econd coming but for thousands of years, all the faithful have died the first death.

Matt 10:28 26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

But what happens to those who sleep that is different than those who are dead?

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

We sleep in Jesus, so just as He died and rose, and went to heaven, so do we, while they, the dead, die and go to the grave as one of the dead and they don't resurrect until Christ returns, and as one of the dead at the Lords 2nd Advent they hopefully will, at the end of the Lords Day, get their name in the book of life, and finally come to life eternal that way.

 

[posthuman]

But they all died. All die. The key to this is understanding that saved Christians never die the second death but all die the first death. There are some who are the exception like a couple from the OT and some survivors at the time of the s4econd coming but for thousands of years, all the faithful have died the first death.

exactly, yes.

it has to be understood that when scripture talks about life and death, there is more than one thing called death, and more than one thing called life.

He speaks to us of spiritual things, but often in an earthly, human way, so we can understand.

 

[ewq1938]

But what happens to those who sleep that is different than those who are dead?

There's no difference. Sleep is another way to say dead because the dead often look like they are sleeping. It's just a figure of speech.

 

[posthuman]

There's no difference. Sleep is another way to say dead because the dead often look like they are sleeping. It's just a figure of speech.

a figure of speech because no physical death is permanent. every creature will be resurrected

 

[ewq1938]

a figure of speech because no physical death is permanent. every creature will be resurrected

Not animals. Never seen anything about them. There is also no resurrection for the second death.

 

[Mem]

Since the title left the spirit component out of the question, @The_Parson, do you equate the soul with the spirit?

Jesus said of the Jairus' daughter in Like 8:54, "stop weeping; she is not dead but asleep." and they laughed at Him, knowing that she was dead. And Jesus took her by the hand and called out, "Child, get up!" and v. 55 say,
"Her spirit returned, and at once she got up..."

A living soul has a spirit housed within a body. The souls of the dead have bodies their spirit has left and returned to Him that gave it (taken). They are not wandering anywhere whether purposefully or aimlessly. God remembers them. He hasn't forgotten anything about them down to how many hairs each had on their head and if each individual hair happened to have a split end.

Can we speak to the dead? Should you speak to the dead? Samuel was short with Saul when he had the witch raise him up. And especially now we know, we have access to God Himself through Christ. What was Samuel thinking?!

Matthew 6:25
"Because of this (the fact that you cannot serve both God and money, v.24) I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you should eat or what you should drink; nor your body, what you should put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?" It seems here that we should, primarily, worry after our spiritual condition. Do we trust God for our life?

David lived 70 years. That is, his life lasted 70 years. But His life isn't dead because David is not his life. David's soul is not his life, exactly. David body is not, exactly, his life. And it might even be a valid to claim that David's spirit is not, exactly, his life. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

 

[ewq1938]

Since the title left the spirit component out of the question, @The_Parson, do you equate the soul with the spirit?

They have the same meaning in 3 languages:

There is no difference between the soul and spirit except the two names being different. Otherwise, they are identical:

In John 12:27, Jesus said, "Now is my soul (psuche) troubled", and in John 13:21 it says, "Jesus was troubled in his spirit (pneuma)"

Here spirit and soul are used interchangeably. He was troubled in his soul, and he was troubled in his spirit.


Genesis 35:18 (KJV)
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

James 2:26 (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Here they are used also interchangeably since the body is dead when the soul departs and the body is also dead when the spirit departs.


Soul and Spirit are defined the same in both Hebrew and Greek, and even English. They are synonyms.


English:

soul (sol) noun
1. The animating and vital principle in human beings, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
2. The spiritual nature of human beings, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human being; a shade....
5. A human being: "the homes of some nine hundred souls" (Garrison Keillor).
6. The central or integral part; the vital core: "It saddens me that this network . . . may lose its soul, which is after all the quest for news" (M. Kalb).

spir·it (spîr¹ît) noun
1. a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings. b. Incorporeal consciousness....
2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.
6. a. The part of a human being associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit. b. The essential nature of a person or group.
7. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.(11)

Take note that within the definition of SOUL that the word SPIRIT is used and in the definition of SPIRIT that the word SOUL is used. The spirit is a soul and the soul is a spirit! How's that for a full circle!

BDB dictionary Hebrew:

SOUL (nephesh):
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions


SPIRIT (ruach)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character(13)

So in Hebrew "soul" refers to "that which breathes" and called mind, desire, and emotion.
And "spirit" refers to "that which breathes" and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for "mental acts."

Same basic things just written using a little different terminology.

Greek:

Thayer's Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):


SOUL (psuche):
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a12) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death....

SPIRIT (pneuma)
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.(14)


















Thus in Greek "soul" refers to the animating principle which feels, desires, and can attain everlasting life with God.
And "spirit" is also the animating principle which feels, thinks, and decides. Notice once again, the use of the word soul to define spirit (twice in fact: 2b,3b).

Greek:

Strong's Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):



Spirit
G4151
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Soul
G5590
psuche
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


"Summing up, overall the definitions of the English words and lexical entries for the Hebrew and Greek words indicate that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable terms, with common characteristics ascribed to both."


Spirit: "by analogy or figuratively a spirit" and "the rational soul"
Soul: "(by implication) spirit" and "the rational and immortal soul"

Same exact meanings.



Unfortunately scripture doesn't provide any reasoning why the two have their own names or why we need two of something that is essentially two of the same thing with no provided differences between them. It's kind of like having a two headed coin, the same on both sides yet one side is not the other side technically.

 

[Mem]

Unfortunately scripture doesn't provide any reasoning why the two have their own names or why we need two of something that is essentially two of the same thing with no provided differences between them. It's kind of like having a two headed coin, the same on both sides yet one side is not the other side technically.

Perhaps it is to address the nuance in the connection with breath and "that which breathes."

I see you have in bold, "the rational and immortal soul" and see how you have come to that assumption. I'm at least familiar with the arguments for that. But I see that there is a nuance between no man being able to kill the soul and the reality that the soul is mortal (Matthew 10:28...fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.), that is, unless the LORD saves the soul, it is not only figuratively lost but also de facto lost, forever.

I confident we agree that no soul can live without this 'breath' so where there is no "breath" there is no life. Jesus declared that Jairus' daughter was not dead, but asleep. As with her ears, her breath was, is, and will always be, at His disposal, just as He demonstrated at the mount of transfiguration with Moses and Elijah.

 

[ewq1938]

I confident we agree that no soul can live without this 'breath' so where there is no "breath" there is no life.

The word soul is used two ways in scripture. One refers to a person or the person's body and it needs breath to live but the soul within a body does not need it.

 

[Whomsoever]

There's no difference. Sleep is another way to say dead because the dead often look like they are sleeping. It's just a figure of speech.

How can one be dead when one never dies? Have you looked up the word sleep and the word dead. Dead is mortal, lifeless,...Sleep is what the body looks like before it decays, dead is a state of both spirit/soul and body/spirit/soul. The dead are dead while living in the flesh and blood as well as dead once the common death of all flesh and blood bodies comes to that being.



The biggest question that thought posses for me is what 'life' did the New Covenant bring about? Under the law of sin and death, when one died, they went to the place of the dead, having died in sin. They didn't rise until the last day. Are you saying we STILL don't rise until the last day? If so, what was the point?



Here are other problems I encounter. Either these verses are correct, or they are not. Please share how you read and understand them.


35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Where does the 'delay' come from? Do believers 'rise up' twice?

Is anything quickened at death of the F&B body or not?

Do we sow the F&B body that WILL rise again or not?

If we don't rise up in a body when we rise up the first time, then how do we EVER rise up incorruptible?

because THIS says that would not be possible
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

This is quite clear isn't it? No flesh and blood and no decay rises up in incorruption, So, WHAT BODY can any souls 'returning' from heaven be coming back for?


Where do I find a verse that VOIDS out this one and/or changes it to 'it will be raise bodyless'

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


and/or one that states 'the living will rise', as opposed to the 'lifeless, subject to death' will rise?