Are you a monergist or a synergist?
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.fyi ... showing you what God said about Esau before Esau was born does not equal "skipping over verse 13 and pretending it's not there".
God tells you two times what He said before Esau was born:
Genesis 25:23 and Romans 9:11-12
the one who is "pretending" verse 13 occurred before Esau was born is the one you see when you look in the mirror.
hahahahahaha!!! ... you so funny!!!
nope ... the "preceding verses reveal that God said" the elder shall serve the younger before the twins were born.
From Wikipedia (bold mine):
According to the Hebrew Bible, Esau was born to his parents, Isaac and Rebekah, when Isaac was 60 years old. Biblical chronologists estimate his birth around 1836 BC to 1873 BC.
From GotQuestions.org (bold mine):
In the fifth century BC, the descendants of the southern kingdom of Judah returned home from exile. They rebuilt Jerusalem, including the temple and later the city wall. The prophet Malachi ministered after the temple’s reconstruction. At this time, he confronted the Israelites’ spiritual apathy, calling them back to God. Through Malachi, God asked, “If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?” (Malachi 1:6). Malachi wrote his book around 433 to 424 BC.
It is clear God said "Esau have I hated" long after Esau was born, lived his life, and died.
You have a problem with that? ... take it up with the Author of Scripture.
hahahahahaha!!! ... you so funny!!!
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Didn’t read entire thread, so sorry if I’m repeating what others have said.
Funny, I never knew what the fancy terms were for what I believe until coming to CC.
But I’m definitely a monergist.
Jesus Himself explains it in John 3 pretty easily, and once you see it, you can’t unsee it.
“You must be born again”.
And then Jesus relates physical birth to spiritual birth.
What part did ANY of us play in our physical birth?
ZERO, nada, nothing! We had NOTHING to do with our conception or our birth.
So what would make us believe we have something to do with our Spiritual birth?
Jesus says we are born FROM above.
Not sure how that can be taken to mean we somehow had a part in our regeneration.
Funny, I never knew what the fancy terms were for what I believe until coming to CC.
But I’m definitely a monergist.
Jesus Himself explains it in John 3 pretty easily, and once you see it, you can’t unsee it.
“You must be born again”.
And then Jesus relates physical birth to spiritual birth.
What part did ANY of us play in our physical birth?
ZERO, nada, nothing! We had NOTHING to do with our conception or our birth.
So what would make us believe we have something to do with our Spiritual birth?
Jesus says we are born FROM above.
Not sure how that can be taken to mean we somehow had a part in our regeneration.
It's not a more accurate definition you need...
But
It's not a congruent question.....
That's the part we keep telling these people and they just don't get it.
So....when asked, "What does the color blue taste like?"
You say "blue is a color, it is not a flavor, although sometimes used to symbolize a flavor it doesn't have any flavor"
"So you are saying it's flavorless. It either has a flavor or it doesn't....you can't be one of 'us' because we believe it has a unique flavor and you are saying it tastes like water"
"No....I'm saying it's not a proper question....that picking a side is wrong....I'm saying: none of the above"
"There's no way, it's polar opposites. It's either flavored or it's not.....there's no way it can be anything else "
And on and on this debated question continues.
right ... and the second wasn't spoken just after Esau died ... it was spoken after many descendants of Esau had lived and died as well.
right.
right ... not only can he not "predetermine what we do", he is subject to the Lord Jesus Christ Who lives inside each and every born again believer (Galatians 2:20). That does not, however, stop him from roaming about "as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter 5:8).
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This seems like a good post to continue our discussion. Hopefully my thoughts will prove more organized and cogent today.
This explanation seems similar to prevenient grace. Do you agree? Does prevenient grace explain your understanding of the estate of the fallen natural man? And how how one comes to salvation?
As with almost all learned traditions, the options given are not all the options available, which usually leaves out the one option from Scripture.
It's not monergy or synergy, but monergy with synergy:
The gospel of Jesus Christ is to repent, believe God, and do good through grace and faith of Jesus Christ.
Mark{1:15}
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Act 3:26
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Acts{11:18}
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
We must do the repenting from our own evil works, but it's God by Jesus Christ that grants us that repentance, and turns us from those iniquities.
Eph{2:8}
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
And it's God Himself that also gives us His grace and faith to do the good, that our Lord commands and wills us all to do.
Phl 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
It's god that works in us, to do the good works of His will: monergy with synergy.
And so, although we ourselves do the righteous repenting and good works, it's God Himself by Jesus Christ, that must give us all we need to repent and do good. To the Lord be the glory, whose life we now live, and not our own:
Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Paul's declaration of monergy with synergy begins with Jesus dying for our sins, and continues with God working with us to repent for and do good for His name's sake.
The synergy is "I live to do these things", and the monergy is "Yet not I, but Christ that lives in me".
If we do not His good pleasure, we have not His faith. If we do not believe Him, we do not His good pleasure.
Exclusive monergy is God doing everything, and we do nothing ourselves: Faith without our works. Exclusive synergy is to live and do the works by myself: Works without any faith.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is God's faith with our works: We repent by God's grant, we believe by God's grace, and we do good through God's faith.
Jhn 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Phl 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Without God we can do nothing good. With God we can do all things good.
God will save anyone who believes in Jesus Christ no matter how stupid they are.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31
I did not even know Jesus was God when I believed.
I was wonderfully saved anyway!
Why argue over these issue over and over again?
The love of arguing can be sin.
You are correct, that God's prophecy was one ruling the other, contrary to the tradition of the first born son. But His prophecy was not fulfilled in loving Jacob and hating Esau, until they lived their lives.
God's monergy is fulfilled with our synergy:
When God justifies us to do good, monergy is fulfilled in synergy, even as faith is fulfilled in good works:
James{2:21}
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
The Scripture that is fulfilled by works of faith, was not one Scripture only, but three Scriptures fulfilled together:
Gen 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Isa 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
The first Scripture imputed righteousness to Abraham by believing God. The next Scripture was Abraham called the Friend of God. And the final Scripture is: The imputed righteousness by faith and justified by work made Abraham the Friend of God.
We cannot be a friend of God by faith without our works, because if our works are evil, then we make ourselves a friend of the world, and the enemy of God:
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
The Scripture of being a friend of God is not fulfilled by imputed righteousness of faith alone, nor by good works alone, but only by imputed righteousness of faith justified with works of faith: Faith fulfilled with works, Monergy fulfilled with synergy.
I have not heard of that term. I will look into it.
After a glance at the definition I was reminded of the verse “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
And then this verse: “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.”
I will get back to this.
Right.
Right. it escapes me how some Christians can believe we are justified with God, while doing evil.
We have no problem understanding such obvious hypocrisy in other religions, but in the name of Jesus Christ??
Apparently for some naming the name of Jesus Christ, is a form of supernatural transportation to heaven, rather than down to earth deliverance from doing evil...
The power of the name Jesus Christ is to bow down and repent, not to lift ourselves above our own works:
Phl 2:9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Amo 5:26
But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
1Jo 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
I'm more interested in going back a bit.
You spoke earlier of the breath of life life. Explain this to me.
If it weren't for your misapplication, you'd know what you were talking about.
Yes. God’s choice of who would be the progenitor of the Messiah was not based on any work that either child had done, not works or foreseen merit..
That is gobbledy-gook. Where do you get from the Bible the concept of - "The meaning of "hate" (when applied eternally) is God's sovereign decision of reprobation—His eternal decree to pass over an individual. That is nowhere stated in the Bible.
There is no mention God passing over Esau being because God hated Esau before He chose between them, nor as he chose between them, nor immediately after He chose between them as to who would be the vessel carrying the Messianic line to Christ.
The context of God’s word through Malachi is that God is not addressing Esau the brother of jacob, but is addressing the nations that descended from Esau and Jacob. JHWH’s complaint regarding Esau is that they had behaved treacherously toward, and had participated in attempts to destroy, the nation of Jacob, whom God had ordained to be preserved through history until Messiah should come from them.
The books of Amos and Obadiah catalogue God’s reasons for growing to hate Esau.
Amo 1:11
Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn awaythe punishment thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast offall pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever:
Oba 1:10
For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.
Oba 1:11
In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces,and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.
Oba 1:12
But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neithershouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neithershouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.
Oba 1:13
Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest nothave looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the dayof their calamity;
Oba 1:14
Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neithershouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.
This is why God began to hate Esau (the nation) and allow their demise.
The nation of Jacob had also behaved treacherously toward JHWH and their wives by breaking their covenants to both. However, because of JHWH’s promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, God was preserving Jacob’s descendants as a nation. That is the contextual reason for God saying “Jacob I have loved, and Esau I have hated.”
Mal. 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Going back to the patriarchs. we read in Genesis that the individuals Esau and Jacob reconciled upon Jacob’s return. Esau had submitted to God’s choice of Jacob, and they both got on OK themselves.
Gen 33:4
And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him:and they wept.
Gen 35:29
And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and fullof days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.
It was Esau's descendants who eventually broke faith with Jacob’s descendants, and incurred God’s hatred for it.
Paul does not expect his readers to take these two samplings from two diverse parts of scripture and glue them together in isolation to invent some theological chimera. He expects his readers to refer back to the contexts of both statements and draw inferences from the two related contexts. My conclusion is that Paul is showing us by His choice of Jacob that God calls and chooses vessels independently of their previous works. And by God's anger against Esau’s descendants Paul is showing us that He is not happy with people who oppose those whom God has chosen, and He can bring judgment upon them whenever He wills. And God is also able to postpone judgment of His chosen who betray Him, if He can still has some use for them in His overall plan.
But there is nothing in the text that indicates Paul thinks God hated Esau from eternity past.
Paul explicitly notes the twins had done nothing good or bad yet when the decree was stated, "Esau have I hated" proving that election is entirely outside of human merit.
The fact that some time passed before Gods Words were quoted, does not make them any less true. His Word is Eternally Alive and True, All Powerful and Unchanging.
God’s "love" for Jacob meant He chose him to receive unmerited favor and covenant promises, while His "hate" for Esau meant He passed him over, choosing not to elect him to salvation.
While Jacob's salvation is entirely God’s active work, Esau's ultimate state reflects God’s sovereign right to display both His mercy and His justice.
aiOn means an age. aiOnios is an adjective derived from aiOn and means age-during/age-long/aeonous. By your logic, the following would be true.
The woman’s husband gave her red roses and a red dress for her birthday - I used exactly the same English (red) for "red roses" and "red dress”, implying that both gifts were of the exact same shade of red.
Your conclusion is non sequitur.
You have serious reading comprehension issues, friend. How well did you score in English at school?
Well done and well said. I enjoy reading accurate teaching of what the Bible actually says, both plainly and in context, rather than the far too common manner of inserting our own desired theology into the Bible.
On several key points, you are correct: The prophecy was one of rule over the other, not of an eternal election of souls. And, as you pioint out, is not even a prophecy of selection between the two borthers themselves, but only of their national heritage.
Which of course is the case of context from the start:
Gen 25:23
And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Mal 1:2
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Which is also the case here, where the LORD is speaking of His love to bless Jacob's heritage, and hate to curse Esau's.
In Scripture, many times the LORD uses the name Esau and Jacob, when speaking of their national heritage: He calls their offspring by the progenitor's name:
Deu 32:9
For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
Deu 33:4
Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob...They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
Jer 49:10
But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not.
Oba 1:6
How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!
Neither in Genesis 25 nor Malachi 1, is the LORD prophecying and pronouncing judgments of Esau and Jacob personally.
We can add another point to the argument of works:
Gen 25:22
And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
The LORD's prophecy was not without the two doing nothing at all, but only after they had struggled together in the womb, did rebecca enquire of the LORD.
The Scripture in Romans 9 simply says that, like all babes neither had done good or evil. And so, once again the Scripture cannot be saying the two babes did no work at all, else Scripture breaks Scripture, that says they did struggle together in the womb.
Their struggling was simply neither good nor evil, but only natural to two babes in one womb at the same time.
Therefore, theologically claiming that the LORD's prophecy was to Esau and Jacob personally, causes the prophecy to fail, since it was Jacob who submitted to Esau and fled. Likewise, theologically claiming that the babes did no works at all in the womb, causes the Scripture to fail, that records their stuggling together.
As in so many other cases of Scripture, the false theology of predetermined eternal choosing by God, before being born into the world, is personally injected into Scripture and changes the words of God into lies, that He never said nor wrote.
Synergy is actually used in the Bible. The word monergism never is. If monergism were true, universalism would follow since God wants everyone to be saved and Jesus died for all.
What does that mean? Synergism is the truth. This is why Paul says Be ye reconciled but also warns us not to receive the grace of God in vain, or believe in vain.
What does that mean? Synergism is the truth. This is why Paul says Be ye reconciled but also warns us not to receive the grace of God in vain, or believe in vain.
How do you interpret the book of Revelation and Daniel then? So many specifics and time measurements. That is why I am on the fence. I sympathize with open theism but at the moment I do believe God knows the future exhaustively.