Are you a monergist or a synergist?

[Journey_man]

aiOn means an age. aiOnios is an adjective derived from aiOn and means age-during/age-long/aeonous. By your logic, the following would be true.
The woman’s husband gave her red roses and a red dress for her birthday - I used exactly the same English (red) for "red roses" and "red dress”, implying that both gifts were of the exact same shade of red.
Your conclusion is non sequitur.

You can apply the word in that sense, but it still doesn't negate the Bible Doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment in the lake of fire.

A man can commit gross crimes against his fellow humans that could earn him ten life sentences for ten minutes of mayhem. But sinning sinning against God for one’s whole lifetime earns eternal damnation. Adam's one sin plunged the world into death and darkness.

Jesus spoke of an eternal (not finite) sin (Mark 3:29), a sin that “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). And sins not explicitly named as this eternal sin, result in eternal destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2), eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46), and eternal fire (Matthew 25:41) which undermines our finite categories.

Sinners continue to sin throughout eternity, the impenitence of the lost also continues throughout eternity.”
Revelation 22:11: “Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.”

If the holy practice holiness in anticipation of continuing in perfect holiness, will not the ungodly continue to spiral in evil throughout eternity? Will they suddenly love God with all their souls in hell?

The answer is clear enough in Revelation 16:8–11, where people under God’s judgment “gnawed their tongues in anguish and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.”

 

[Journey_man]

You have serious reading comprehension issues, friend. How well did you score in English at school?

This is not about my English score at school. We were discussing the Bible Doctrine of reprobation and Gods hatred of the reprobate. If you don't believe what God has clearly said about the matter, then state your reason

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Didn’t read entire thread, so sorry if I’m repeating what others have said.

Funny, I never knew what the fancy terms were for what I believe until coming to CC.

But I’m definitely a monergist.

Jesus Himself explains it in John 3 pretty easily, and once you see it, you can’t unsee it.

“You must be born again”.

And then Jesus relates physical birth to spiritual birth.

What part did ANY of us play in our physical birth?

ZERO, nada, nothing! We had NOTHING to do with our conception or our birth.

So what would make us believe we have something to do with our Spiritual birth?

Jesus says we are born FROM above.
Not sure how that can be taken to mean we somehow had a part in our regeneration.

(a) Just because physical and spiritual events are comparable in certain respects does not mean they are in EVERY respect.
There are no perfect metaphors. Rather than learning what the various points of comparisons between the two different types of birth you conflate them in a way that the Apostles and Jesus never intended them to be understood.

(b) Let us examine how this way of interpreting the scriptures can go wrong. For instance, we know that an unborn humans who have just begun to develop higher brain functions do not have the ability to organize the mileau of sensory data into mental constructs. which enables them to understand what is going on. Their ignorance does not at all impede thei physical birth. Being born is a physical event which being born is an organic process which does not depend on either the understanding of the fetus or their consent depend on their consent. Although, humans often complain that they did not ask to be born we all know that is nonsense. No one is able to ask that question at that age. When the time is right they will be expelled from the womb and sent into the world.

(c). This is much different than SPIRITUAL birth which requires understanding and willing consent. This is shown in the parable of the Seed and Sower where Jesus said: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. Merely hearing the gospel will not cause the new birth. A person must hear and UNDERSTAND it or the the seed of life will not germinate within them.

(d) If the new birth were soley due to the sower, every precious seed would spring up and continue, for does every farmer want to see that which he plants to grow? My grandfather who was a farmer wanted every seed he planted to grow. Not all did due to the conditions of the soil unless you believe the sower who labored to plant, tend and bring forth the life had secretly really ordained to destroy it.

(e) When Jesus also taught on the Parable of the Sower and the Seed, the Sower was the Son of Man. The seed was the word of the gospel. The soil represented the human soul and how the soil reacted to the seed. Some individuals were like rocky soil who receive the word with joy but, last only a short time until they were intimidated by persecution. After that they fell away and the new life did not survive.

(f). The seed falling among the thorns refers to a person who hears the word. After that the seed germinates Then the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, which eventually led the death of the new life. Jesus teachings show that new birth is not inevitable but depends on the reception of it by the soil. The life continues to grow towards maturity based on the ongoing progress of the life.

(e). Your ideas do not match what Jesus taught. Rather, your ideas come from the teachings of Augustine who drew his ideas about God out of the cult of Manichaeism to which he had belonged for nine years prior to his conversion to Christianity. Although Augustine began preaching the traditional doctrine of free will which had been taught for three centuries. The Manichaeans believed in was based on divine determinism and human inability. However, if these teachings had been true then when the Bible says: God commanded all men EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts 17:30) all men would have repented long ago and all would have been saved. The fact that they did not shows that God gave men the power of self-determination

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The Scripture of being a friend of God is not fulfilled by imputed righteousness of faith alone, nor by good works alone, but only by imputed righteousness of faith justified with works of faith: Faith fulfilled with works, Monergy fulfilled with synergy.

agree there should be outward evidence (fruit) of the internal dwelling of Holy Spirit in each born again believer.

Apparently for some naming the name of Jesus Christ, is a form of supernatural transportation to heaven, rather than down to earth deliverance from doing evil...

born again believers need to get to the point where the riches found in the Lord Jesus Christ are esteemed as greater than the pleasures of the flesh.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Paul explicitly notes the twins had done nothing good or bad yet when the decree was stated, "Esau have I hated" proving that election is entirely outside of human merit.

What God stated in Romans 9:12 is directly related to what God stated in Genesis 25:23 ... before the twins were born God said "the elder shall serve the younger".

Long after both twins had lived their lives God stated "Esau have I hated" (Malachi 1:3).

You are wholly mistaken in your claim that God said "Esau have I hated" before Esau was born.

The fact that some time passed before Gods Words were quoted, does not make them any less true. His Word is Eternally Alive and True, All Powerful and Unchanging.

non-issue. The only one questioning whether God's Words are true or not appears to be you in your insistence that God said "Esau have I hated" before Esau was born. Scripture reveals your claim is in error.

This has been explained to you numerous times by more than one person. That you refuse to accept God's Word just as it is written reveals you are not really interested in what the Author of Scripture wrote ... you're not interested in what God wrote in Genesis 25:23 ... you're not interested in what God wrote in Malachi 1:3 ... you're not interested in what God wrote in Romans 9:11-12 ... you're not interested in what God wrote in Romans 9:13.

You are only interested in manipulating the text in your desperate attempt to have God say something He never said before Esau was born.

God’s "love" for Jacob meant He chose him to receive unmerited favor and covenant promises, while His "hate" for Esau meant He passed him over, choosing not to elect him to salvation.

While Jacob's salvation is entirely God’s active work, Esau's ultimate state reflects God’s sovereign right to display both His mercy and His justice.

What Jacob received were the covenant promises God made to Abraham ... the land of Canaan, innumerable descendants, God's protection, blessing to all families of the earth through his Offspring. These are the "covenant promises" to which you refer.

God's promises to Abraham:

Genesis 15:1 - God's promise to Abraham that He would be his shield (protector) and his reward.​

​

Genesis 15:5 - God's promise to Abraham that he would have innumerable descendants.​

​

Genesis 15:7-8 - God's promise to Abraham that He would give him the land.​

​

Genesis 22:18 - God's promise to Abraham that all families of the earth would be blessed..​

God's promises to Jacob:

Genesis 26:2-5​

​

2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:​

​

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;​

​

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;​

​

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.​

​

Repeated in Genesis 28:13-15​

​

13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;​

​

14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.​

​

15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.​

.

 

[Journey_man]

What God stated in Romans 9:12 is directly related to what God stated in Genesis 25:23 ... before the twins were born God said "the elder shall serve the younger".

Long after both twins had lived their lives God stated "Esau have I hated" (Malachi 1:3).

You are wholly mistaken in your claim that God said "Esau have I hated" before Esau was born.





non-issue. The only one questioning whether God's Words are true or not appears to be you in your insistence that God said "Esau have I hated" before Esau was born. Scripture reveals your claim is in error.

This has been explained to you numerous times by more than one person. That you refuse to accept God's Word just as it is written reveals you are not really interested in what the Author of Scripture wrote ... you're not interested in what God wrote in Genesis 25:23 ... you're not interested in what God wrote in Malachi 1:3 ... you're not interested in what God wrote in Romans 9:11-12 ... you're not interested in what God wrote in Romans 9:13.

You are only interested in manipulating the text in your desperate attempt to have God say something He never said before Esau was born.





What Jacob received were the covenant promises God made to Abraham ... the land of Canaan, innumerable descendants, God's protection, blessing to all families of the earth through his Offspring. These are the "covenant promises" to which you refer.

God's promises to Abraham:

Genesis 15:1 - God's promise to Abraham that He would be his shield (protector) and his reward.​

​

Genesis 15:5 - God's promise to Abraham that he would have innumerable descendants.​

​

Genesis 15:7-8 - God's promise to Abraham that He would give him the land.​

​

Genesis 22:18 - God's promise to Abraham that all families of the earth would be blessed..​

God's promises to Jacob:

Genesis 26:2-5​

​

2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:​

​

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;​

​

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;​

​

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.​

​

Repeated in Genesis 28:13-15​

​

13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;​

​

14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.​

​

15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.​

.

There are no contradictions in the Bible, so your interpretation of Romans 9:13 doesn't make sense.

God's decree of election and reprobation regarding Jacob and Esau was made before they were born and before they had done anything good or bad. This highlights God's sovereign, unconditional choice.

Paul writes in Romans 9:11–13 that the twins had not yet been born or done anything good or bad. This was so God’s purpose in election would stand based on His call, not on human works.

In this context, "hate" is God's sovereign decision of reprobation—passing a person over in His mercy and decreeing to leave them in their sin to face His holy justice, contrasted with His elective love for Jacob.

The text emphasizes that salvation depends on God's mercy, not on human will or running. By deciding before birth, God ensures that the distinction between the two men arises entirely from His own free pleasure rather than human worth.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

There are no contradictions in the Bible, so your interpretation of Romans 9:13 doesn't make sense.

What doesn't make sense is your continued resistance to what is explicitly written.

You jump from Romans 9:11 to Romans 9:13 and ignore what is written in Romans 9:12.

You now know that what God said to Rebecca before the children were born was "the elder shall serve the younger":

Genesis 25:21-23

21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.

22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.

23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.


Please provide chapter and verse wherein God said He hated Esau before Esau was born.

If you cannot provide the verse, then what is written in Genesis 25:23 and in Romans 9:11-12 stands ... and your insistence that God He hated Esau before Esau was born is nothing but your manipulation of Scripture.

God's decree of election and reprobation regarding Jacob and Esau was made before they were born and before they had done anything good or bad. This highlights God's sovereign, unconditional choice.

You know what God said before they were born ... "the elder shall serve the younger" (Genesis 25:23) and you know what God said long after Jacob and Esau had lived out their lives and more than a few descendants of Jacob and Esau had lived out their lives ... "yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau" (Malachi 1:2-3).

You are wholly in error in your insistence that God said He hated Esau before Esau was born.

Paul writes in Romans 9:11–13 that the twins had not yet been born or done anything good or bad. This was so God’s purpose in election would stand based on His call, not on human works.

No one is disputing that God said "the elder shall serve the younger" before Jacob and Esau were born.

What is disputed is your insistence that God said He hated Esau before Esau was born. You cannot provide any Scripture (chapter and verse) wherein God said He hated Esau before Esau was born.

In this context, "hate" is God's sovereign decision of reprobation—passing a person over in His mercy and decreeing to leave them in their sin to face His holy justice, contrasted with His elective love for Jacob.

The text emphasizes that salvation depends on God's mercy, not on human will or running. By deciding before birth, God ensures that the distinction between the two men arises entirely from His own free pleasure rather than human worth.

Nobody is disputing that salvation is wholly by God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness ... what is disputed is your manipulation of the text whereby you claim that God said something He never said before Jacob and Esau were born.

God can and did say "the elder shall serve the younger" before they were born and salvation can still be in accordance with God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness.

God can and did say "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" long after Jacob and Esau lived their lives and salvation can still be in accordance with God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness.

God does not need you (or anyone else) to manipulate what He wrote in Scripture in order for salvation to be wholly by His grace, mercy, lovingkindness.

.

 

[Journey_man]

What doesn't make sense is your continued resistance to what is explicitly written.

You jump from Romans 9:11 to Romans 9:13 and ignore what is written in Romans 9:12.

You now know that what God said to Rebecca before the children were born was "the elder shall serve the younger":

Genesis 25:21-23

21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.

22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.

23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.


Please provide chapter and verse wherein God said He hated Esau before Esau was born.

If you cannot provide the verse, then what is written in Genesis 25:23 and in Romans 9:11-12 stands ... and your insistence that God He hated Esau before Esau was born is nothing but your manipulation of Scripture.





You know what God said before they were born ... "the elder shall serve the younger" (Genesis 25:23) and you know what God said long after Jacob and Esau had lived out their lives and more than a few descendants of Jacob and Esau had lived out their lives ... "yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau" (Malachi 1:2-3).

You are wholly in error in your insistence that God said He hated Esau before Esau was born.





No one is disputing that God said "the elder shall serve the younger" before Jacob and Esau were born.

What is disputed is your insistence that God said He hated Esau before Esau was born. You cannot provide any Scripture (chapter and verse) wherein God said He hated Esau before Esau was born.





Nobody is disputing that salvation is wholly by God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness ... what is disputed is your manipulation of the text whereby you claim that God said something He never said before Jacob and Esau were born.

God can and did say "the elder shall serve the younger" before they were born and salvation can still be in accordance with God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness.

God can and did say "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" long after Jacob and Esau lived their lives and salvation can still be in accordance with God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness.

God does not need you (or anyone else) to manipulate what He wrote in Scripture in order for salvation to be wholly by His grace, mercy, lovingkindness.

.

You simply can't get around the fact that God hates some people. Romans 9:13 says that God hated Esau before Esau was even born, because Esau had inherited Adam's hatred of God, and God was not pleased (in His mysterious decision) to elect Esau to salvation. Psalm 5:5 says, "The arrogant cannot stand in Your presence; You hate all who do wrong." Notice that is it not some abstract "sin" or "wickedness" that God hates in this verse; it is people whom He hates.

Psalm 139:21–22 tells us that we should join God in His holy hatred of these people: "Do I not hate those who hate You, O Lord …? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies." The New Testament says the same in Revelation 2:6.

How are we to understand this? In some cases, hate simply means "love less." In Luke 14:26 we find Jesus saying that we must hate the members of our own families if we want to follow Him, while in the parallel passage in Matthew 10:37, Jesus says we must love them less than we love Him. That kind of "soft" explanation, however, won't work in the passages we cited above. God did not love Esau less than Jacob; He did not love Esau in any saving way at all.

It is Psalm 139:21–22 that gives us an important perspective on this matter. To hate someone is to count him as an enemy and to treat him as an enemy. In the Bible, hatred is not an emotion primarily, but rather a covenant action. Those who treat God as an enemy will find God treating them the same way. Since they are His enemies, and He "hates" them, He will destroy them.

The "soft" and the "hard" senses of hatred can be put together this way: When the Bible speaks of God's loving someone, it means He has chosen to favor them; when it speaks of God's hating someone, it means He has chosen not to favor them. Thus, we are to favor Christ and not favor the members of our families. Thus, God favored Jacob and did not favor Esau. Thus, we favor God's friends and we do not favor God's enemies (Psalm 139).

Favoring is a choice, not an emotion. When family members attack the church, we must choose to side with Christ. When God favors us, it means He elects us; those He disfavors, He leaves to their own damnation.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You simply can't get around the fact that God hates some people.

You simply can't get around the fact that God never said he hated Esau before Esau was born.

Before you comment that I "simply can't get around the fact that God hates some people", please provide the chapter and verse where God said he hated Esau before Esau was born.

Romans 9:13 says that God hated Esau before Esau was even born,

Here is Romans 9:13:

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

"As it is written" ... "it is written" in Malachi 1:3, Journey_man.

Was Malachi 1:3 "written" before Esau was born?

because Esau had inherited Adam's hatred of God,

Please provide chapter and verse which states that Adam hated God.

and God was not pleased (in His mysterious decision) to elect Esau to salvation.

God stating before Esau was born that "the elder [Esau] shall serve the younger [Jacob]" has nothing to do with salvation.

"the elder [Esau] shall serve the younger [Jacob]" is a prophetic utterance and it relates to Esau having sold his birthright to Jacob and Jacob having succeeded to the covenant promises God made to Abraham.

Psalm 5:5 says, "The arrogant cannot stand in Your presence; You hate all who do wrong." Notice that is it not some abstract "sin" or "wickedness" that God hates in this verse; it is people whom He hates.

Psalm 139:21–22 tells us that we should join God in His holy hatred of these people: "Do I not hate those who hate You, O Lord …? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies." The New Testament says the same in Revelation 2:6.

How are we to understand this? In some cases, hate simply means "love less." In Luke 14:26 we find Jesus saying that we must hate the members of our own families if we want to follow Him, while in the parallel passage in Matthew 10:37, Jesus says we must love them less than we love Him. That kind of "soft" explanation, however, won't work in the passages we cited above. God did not love Esau less than Jacob; He did not love Esau in any saving way at all.

It is Psalm 139:21–22 that gives us an important perspective on this matter. To hate someone is to count him as an enemy and to treat him as an enemy. In the Bible, hatred is not an emotion primarily, but rather a covenant action. Those who treat God as an enemy will find God treating them the same way. Since they are His enemies, and He "hates" them, He will destroy them.

The "soft" and the "hard" senses of hatred can be put together this way: When the Bible speaks of God's loving someone, it means He has chosen to favor them; when it speaks of God's hating someone, it means He has chosen not to favor them. Thus, we are to favor Christ and not favor the members of our families. Thus, God favored Jacob and did not favor Esau. Thus, we favor God's friends and we do not favor God's enemies (Psalm 139).

Favoring is a choice, not an emotion. When family members attack the church, we must choose to side with Christ. When God favors us, it means He elects us; those He disfavors, He leaves to their own damnation.

All of this does nothing but reveal your inability to provide one single verse wherein God explicitly stated that He hated Esau before Esau was born.

You are rejecting the simple truth of Scripture ... for whatever reason, you are arguing against what the Author of Scripture wrote ... good luck with that.

.

 

[Journey_man]

You simply can't get around the fact that God never said he hated Esau before Esau was born.

Before you comment that I "simply can't get around the fact that God hates some people", please provide the chapter and verse where God said he hated Esau before Esau was born.





Here is Romans 9:13:

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

"As it is written" ... "it is written" in Malachi 1:3, Journey_man.

Was Malachi 1:3 "written" before Esau was born?





Please provide chapter and verse which states that Adam hated God.





God stating before Esau was born that "the elder [Esau] shall serve the younger [Jacob]" has nothing to do with salvation.

"the elder [Esau] shall serve the younger [Jacob]" is a prophetic utterance and it relates to Esau having sold his birthright to Jacob and Jacob having succeeded to the covenant promises God made to Abraham.





All of this does nothing but reveal your inability to provide one single verse wherein God explicitly stated that He hated Esau before Esau was born.

You are rejecting the simple truth of Scripture ... for whatever reason, you are arguing against what the Author of Scripture wrote ... good luck with that.

.

In Romans 9:11–13, Paul explicitly states that before the twins Jacob and Esau "were born or had done anything good or bad," God made a definitive distinction between them "in order that God's purpose in (election to salvation) might stand".

While you Arminians argue this text only concerns historical or national privilege rather than eternal salvation, the correct interpretation demonstrates that Paul uses the example of the unborn twins to illustrate unconditional individual election and sovereign reprobation.

Paul stresses the timing ("not yet born... done nothing good or bad") this precisely cuts off any Arminian notion of foreseen faith or works. God’s choice was rooted solely in His own will, "him who calls". While national corporate entities (Israel and Edom) are in view later in Malachi, nations are made up of individuals. God's choice to pass over Esau at the foundational level of the patriarchs governs the stream of their posterity.

Yes, Adam hated God. Because unregenerate sinners have an active, fundamental hostility toward God. The fall of man corrupted every part of human nature, making the unredeemed heart a state of spiritual "enmity" against God. Romans 8:7 states that the "carnal mind is enmity against God,". The verse describes a deep-seated hostility and inability to submit to God's law.

Unregenerate people may claim to be neutral or to "love a god of their own making," but they hate the true holy and sovereign God revealed in Scripture. Because of this bondage to sin, the unregenerate person cannot naturally seek God, choose spiritual good, or love God without a prior work of sovereign grace (regeneration).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

In Romans 9:11–13, Paul explicitly states that before the twins Jacob and Esau "were born or had done anything good or bad," God made a definitive distinction between them "in order that God's purpose in (election to salvation) might stand".

The covenant promises God made to Abraham were ultimately made to Abraham's "seed" (singular).

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The lineage of the Lord Jesus Christ ran through Jacob (the younger) ... not Esau (the elder).

Romans 9:11-13 reveals the choice of the younger to carry the lineage of the promised Messiah rather than determining eternal destiny.

While you Arminians argue this text only concerns historical or national privilege rather than eternal salvation, the correct interpretation demonstrates that Paul uses the example of the unborn twins to illustrate unconditional individual election and sovereign reprobation.

pointing out to you that God never said he hated Esau before Esau was born equals me being an "Arminian" ???

Paul stresses the timing ("not yet born... done nothing good or bad") this precisely cuts off any Arminian notion of foreseen faith or works. God’s choice was rooted solely in His own will, "him who calls". While national corporate entities (Israel and Edom) are in view later in Malachi, nations are made up of individuals. God's choice to pass over Esau at the foundational level of the patriarchs governs the stream of their posterity.

What God has in view in the whole of Scripture is His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. When you read Scripture, you focus on mankind rather than what God focuses on.

From Genesis to Revelation, God's focus is on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ ... the Gift given to the world through God's lovingkindness.

Yes, Adam hated God. Because unregenerate sinners have an active, fundamental hostility toward God. The fall of man corrupted every part of human nature, making the unredeemed heart a state of spiritual "enmity" against God. Romans 8:7 states that the "carnal mind is enmity against God,". The verse describes a deep-seated hostility and inability to submit to God's law.

so no scripture ... chapter and verse ... wherein it is explicitly stated that God hated Adam???

Unregenerate people may claim to be neutral or to "love a god of their own making," but they hate the true holy and sovereign God revealed in Scripture. Because of this bondage to sin, the unregenerate person cannot naturally seek God, choose spiritual good, or love God without a prior work of sovereign grace (regeneration).

I have always maintained that God is the One Who first reaches out to mankind.

Mankind either resists God when God reaches out and receives the consequence ...

or mankind does not resist God when God reaches out and receives the blessing.

.

 

[Aaron56]

"..because Esau had inherited Adam's hatred of God..."

This is not correct. God kept Adam around for 930 years presumably because he was useful to God. Adam did, after all, learn directly from God and walk with Him.

 

[Journey_man]

The covenant promises God made to Abraham were ultimately made to Abraham's "seed" (singular).

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The lineage of the Lord Jesus Christ ran through Jacob (the younger) ... not Esau (the elder).

Romans 9:11-13 reveals the choice of the younger to carry the lineage of the promised Messiah rather than determining eternal destiny.





pointing out to you that God never said he hated Esau before Esau was born equals me being an "Arminian" ???





What God has in view in the whole of Scripture is His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. When you read Scripture, you focus on mankind rather than what God focuses on.

From Genesis to Revelation, God's focus is on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ ... the Gift given to the world through God's lovingkindness.





so no scripture ... chapter and verse ... wherein it is explicitly stated that God hated Adam???





I have always maintained that God is the One Who first reaches out to mankind.

Mankind either resists God when God reaches out and receives the consequence ...

or mankind does not resist God when God reaches out and receives the blessing.

.

God made a promise to Abraham in Genesis 12. This promise applies to all believers in every time period. The church of the New Testament is the continuation of Israel, the "seed" is spiritual.

I have already explained the God did say He hated Esau before he was born. You just need to connect the dots. Romans 9:11-13 is about election to salvation and reprobation, it's not dealing with the lineage of the promised Messiah.

Whilst there is no specific verse stating that Adam hated God, I noted some verses which reveal that unbelievers hate God. Adam was a sinner/unbeliever so he was a God hater, just as every other unbeliever is.

You haven't revealed what you believe about salvation, so I assumed you were of the view that salvation is attained by grace + works.

 

[Journey_man]

This is not correct. God kept Adam around for 930 years presumably because he was useful to God. Adam did, after all, learn directly from God and walk with Him.

No, that's not quite true. Adam died in the day he ate of the forbidden tree, so being kept around for 930 years doesn't mean he wasn't dead in his sin.
Adam didn't learn anything after the fall, he hid himself from God and when God confronted him, he blamed Eve for his transgression.

 

[Aaron56]

Adam didn't learn anything after the fall, he hid himself from God and when God confronted him, he blamed Eve for his transgression.

You have a Sunday School level understanding of the story.

You should ask more questions.

And you're making assumptions that are not scriptural. Assuming you believe God holds the keys to the life and death of a man, why would God keep Adam around after he sinned? Why not just end him and Woman and start over? Since He is God, He has no obligation to prolong Adam's life nor the life of Woman. Yet, Adam remained for 930 years.

 

[Journey_man]

You have a Sunday School level understanding of the story.

You should ask more questions.

And you're making assumptions that are not scriptural. Assuming you believe God holds the keys to the life and death of a man, why would God keep Adam around after he sinned? Why not just end him and Woman and start over? Since He is God, He has no obligation to prolong Adam's life nor the life of Woman. Yet, Adam remained for 930 years.

The Bible reveals that God spared Adam and Eve's physical lives because He immediately instituted the Covenant of Grace and pointed forward to a substitutionary atonement.

In Genesis 3:15 God delivered the first gospel promise, declaring that the "seed of the woman" would crush the serpent's head. God spared them to fulfill this eternal decree of redemption.

In Genesis 3:21 God clothed them with animal skins. By doing so, an innocent life (an animal) had to die to shed blood and cover the physical and spiritual shame of the guilty, foreshadowing Jesus Christ.

When God warned "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:17), they died spiritually—severing their communion with God—even though physical death and the final execution of the death penalty were delayed and ultimately transferred to Christ as their Federal Head.

God chose to display not only His holy justice but the riches of His mercy. By saving rebels, God magnifies His grace through the cross rather than terminating the human race on day one.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

The covenant promises God made to Abraham were ultimately made to Abraham's "seed" (singular).

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The lineage of the Lord Jesus Christ ran through Jacob (the younger) ... not Esau (the elder).

Romans 9:11-13 reveals the choice of the younger to carry the lineage of the promised Messiah rather than determining eternal destiny.





pointing out to you that God never said he hated Esau before Esau was born equals me being an "Arminian" ???





What God has in view in the whole of Scripture is His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. When you read Scripture, you focus on mankind rather than what God focuses on.

From Genesis to Revelation, God's focus is on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ ... the Gift given to the world through God's lovingkindness.





so no scripture ... chapter and verse ... wherein it is explicitly stated that God hated Adam???





I have always maintained that God is the One Who first reaches out to mankind.

Mankind either resists God when God reaches out and receives the consequence ...

or mankind does not resist God when God reaches out and receives the blessing.

.

I agree. I understand God "hating" Esau the way we are to "hate" our families over Lord Jesus.

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."

It means we are to put God before all other earthly ties.

So it is with God. He chose Jacob's line for the lineage of the Messiah. It doesn't mean God literally hated Esau. Esau didn't care about God anyway, so why should God want to work through someone who doesn't care? Jacob did, and that's why God worked through his lineage instead.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God made a promise to Abraham in Genesis 12. This promise applies to all believers in every time period. The church of the New Testament is the continuation of Israel, the "seed" is spiritual.

The promises God made to Abraham primarily and ultimately relate to the Lord Jesus Christ. That other believers benefit from God's promises to Abraham point to God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness.

also, fyi ... I'm not a fan of replacement theology and I'm not going to argue with you about it.

I have already explained the God did say He hated Esau before he was born.

and I have already shown you from Scripture that God did not say He hated Esau before Esau was born. You deviate from the plain reading in Scripture which clearly states that what God said before Jacob and Esau were born was "the elder shall serve the younger" (Genesis 25:23).

You just need to connect the dots.

I already have ... you are in denial of what is explicitly stated in Scripture.

Romans 9:11-13 is about election to salvation

nope. God rejected Esau in regard to the covenant promises made to Abraham. Do you know that God gave mount Seir to Esau?

Deuteronomy 2:4-5

4 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:

5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.

I have already showed you that Jacob inherited the covenant promises:

reneweddaybyday said:​

What Jacob received were the covenant promises God made to Abraham ... the land of Canaan, innumerable descendants, God's protection, blessing to all families of the earth through his Offspring. These are the "covenant promises" to which you refer.​

​

God's promises to Abraham:​

Genesis 15:1 - God's promise to Abraham that He would be his shield (protector) and his reward.​

​

Genesis 15:5 - God's promise to Abraham that he would have innumerable descendants.​

​

Genesis 15:7-8 - God's promise to Abraham that He would give him the land.​

​

Genesis 22:18 - God's promise to Abraham that all families of the earth would be blessed..​

​

​

God's promises to Jacob:​

Genesis 26:2-5​

​

2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:​

​

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;​

​

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;​

​

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.​

​

Repeated in Genesis 28:13-15​

​

13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;​

​

14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.​

​

15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.​

it's not dealing with the lineage of the promised Messiah.

Romans 9:11-13 relate to the covenant promises initially spoken to Abraham. Galatians makes it clear that the promises were not made to "seeds" as of many, but to "Seed" Who is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ descended from Abraham through Jacob ... Isaac's son and brother of Esau.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I have "connected the dots" for you.

Whilst there is no specific verse stating that Adam hated God, I noted some verses which reveal that unbelievers hate God. Adam was a sinner/unbeliever so he was a God hater, just as every other unbeliever is.

so ... you have no Scripture which states Adam hated God ... but you still spout that nonsense.

please provide chapter and verse which indicates "Adam was a sinner/unbeliever so he was a God hater".

You haven't revealed what you believe about salvation, so I assumed you were of the view that salvation is attained by grace + works.

I already told you what I believe:

reneweddaybyday said:​

I have always maintained that God is the One Who first reaches out to mankind.​

​

Mankind either resists God when God reaches out and receives the consequence ...​

​

or mankind does not resist God when God reaches out and receives the blessing.​

You claim fallen man will never reach out to God ... and I agree with you there. I believe it is God Who always reaches out to mankind first.

Where you and I are not in agreement is in the fact that you believe mankind's response when God reaches out is an automatic rejection of truth God reveals to a person. I do not believe a person automatically rejects in every instance when God reaches out.

I believe mankind either suppresses the truth in unrighteousness when God reaches out and the person receives the consequence of having rejected ... or ...

the person does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when God reaches out and the person receives the blessing of not having suppressed the truth.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I agree. I understand God "hating" Esau the way we are to "hate" our families over Lord Jesus.

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."

It means we are to put God before all other earthly ties.

right ... the word "hate" in Luke 14:26 is translated from the Greek word miseō. According to HELPS Word-studies, miseō means to "detest (on a comparative basis); hence, denounce; to love someone or something less than someone (something) else, i.e. to renounce one choice in favor of another".

And Luke 14:26 goes so far as to include our "own life" ... if someone "hates" himself or herself, that person has psychological issues and truly needs to turn to God Who is the only One Who can really "fix" that problem.

So it is with God. He chose Jacob's line for the lineage of the Messiah. It doesn't mean God literally hated Esau. Esau didn't care about God anyway, so why should God want to work through someone who doesn't care? Jacob did, and that's why God worked through his lineage instead.

Genesis 25:34 says Esau "despised his birthright" ... yikes!!!

.

 

[Journey_man]

The promises God made to Abraham primarily and ultimately relate to the Lord Jesus Christ. That other believers benefit from God's promises to Abraham point to God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness.

also, fyi ... I'm not a fan of replacement theology and I'm not going to argue with you about it.





and I have already shown you from Scripture that God did not say He hated Esau before Esau was born. You deviate from the plain reading in Scripture which clearly states that what God said before Jacob and Esau were born was "the elder shall serve the younger" (Genesis 25:23).





I already have ... you are in denial of what is explicitly stated in Scripture.





nope. God rejected Esau in regard to the covenant promises made to Abraham. Do you know that God gave mount Seir to Esau?

Deuteronomy 2:4-5

4 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:

5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.

I have already showed you that Jacob inherited the covenant promises:

reneweddaybyday said:​

What Jacob received were the covenant promises God made to Abraham ... the land of Canaan, innumerable descendants, God's protection, blessing to all families of the earth through his Offspring. These are the "covenant promises" to which you refer.​

​

God's promises to Abraham:​

Genesis 15:1 - God's promise to Abraham that He would be his shield (protector) and his reward.​

​

Genesis 15:5 - God's promise to Abraham that he would have innumerable descendants.​

​

Genesis 15:7-8 - God's promise to Abraham that He would give him the land.​

​

Genesis 22:18 - God's promise to Abraham that all families of the earth would be blessed..​

​

​

God's promises to Jacob:​

Genesis 26:2-5​

​

2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:​

​

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;​

​

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;​

​

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.​

​

Repeated in Genesis 28:13-15​

​

13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;​

​

14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.​

​

15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.​

Romans 9:11-13 relate to the covenant promises initially spoken to Abraham. Galatians makes it clear that the promises were not made to "seeds" as of many, but to "Seed" Who is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ descended from Abraham through Jacob ... Isaac's son and brother of Esau.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I have "connected the dots" for you.





so ... you have no Scripture which states Adam hated God ... but you still spout that nonsense.

please provide chapter and verse which indicates "Adam was a sinner/unbeliever so he was a God hater".





I already told you what I believe:

reneweddaybyday said:​

I have always maintained that God is the One Who first reaches out to mankind.​

​

Mankind either resists God when God reaches out and receives the consequence ...​

​

or mankind does not resist God when God reaches out and receives the blessing.​

You claim fallen man will never reach out to God ... and I agree with you there. I believe it is God Who always reaches out to mankind first.

Where you and I are not in agreement is in the fact that you believe mankind's response when God reaches out is an automatic rejection of truth God reveals to a person. I do not believe a person automatically rejects in every instance when God reaches out.

I believe mankind either suppresses the truth in unrighteousness when God reaches out and the person receives the consequence of having rejected ... or ...

the person does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when God reaches out and the person receives the blessing of not having suppressed the truth.

.

I didn't just benefit from the promise God made to Abraham and his seed. I am his seed, because I'm in Christ. The Apostle Paul explains in Galatians that belonging to Christ makes a person Abraham's descendant and an heir to the covenant.
You have no argument with me regarding the false doctrine known as "replacement theology". The Bible doesn't teach any such thing.
In Romans 9:11-13 the text explicitly states that Gods choice to love Jacob and hate Esau happened "before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad". This timing proves that God's decision did not depend on human merit or foreseen action.
God’s "hatred" of Esau represents His eternal decree of non-election (reprobation)—a sovereign decision not to appoint Esau to salvific grace, leaving him to the just consequences of his inherited sin from Adam.
As you rightly pointed out, Romans 9:11-13 reveals that the Covenant made with Abraham and his seed had nothing to do with ethnicity, and everything to do with the bible doctrine of election to salvation and reprobation. Esau was not chosen for salvation before the world was made, so he was a reprobate before he was born.

Your claim that Adam never sinned is not true IOW it's a lie. I'm not sure who sold you that lie but the light of scriptures exposes every lie. I have already shown you scriptures which confirm that Adam did sin, and I have shown many other scriptures which reveal that sinners hate God. So you're not rejecting my view, you're rejecting Gods Word.

Your view regarding God reaching out to everyone with an offer of salvation is not supported by Gods Word. Because every person is born spiritually dead and corrupted by sin. Because of this fallen nature, no one can accept Gods offer, unless God regenerates them first and gives them the gift of faith.