Are you aware some of us don't believe in End Times philosophy?

[InSpiritInTruth]

Here is what many cannot seem to grasp because their minds are constrained by time and the doctrines of men, Jesus spoke of both events starting with the Jews tribulation first, and then leading to the wrath of God being poured out on all the Gentile nations. (Global Tribulation)

Romans 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 

[PlainWord]

I do agree with some of the others that have responded so far to a point.......

As the descriptions given for the Great Tribulation period can not be a past fulfilled event, because for example one of the descriptions says it will be the worse time ever and will not be a time worse then it. We have already had many worse events since 70 AD, and WW2 and the Holocaust does not fit either.

Revelation clearly shows us that the Lord returns at the very end of the GT and casts the man of sin and false prophet into the lake of fire. The Lord has not returned yet, and nowhere does it say there is a big gap between the end of the GT and His return.

The parts that I differ though is that the GT is not God's wrath/tribulation on man.
The GT is when the man of sin is persecuting and killing Jews and Christians, and God's wrath is then poured out at the end of the GT on the man of sin and false prophet and those who follow them.

The bible does clearly speak of a gathering together of believers with the Lord, however Apostle Paul tells us the falling away (church apostasy) and the man of sin being revealed has to come first. The apostasy is happening, but the man of sin has not been revealed yet. The bible gives us where to look at for him to arise from (Turkey: Revelation 2:13,13:2), and that everybody will know for sure when he stands in the temple and claims to be God.

No temple built yet, therefore this prophecy can not be fulfilled, and it was not done in 70 AD either..................

Kenneth, are you becoming post trib???

Not sure a temple has to be built for the man of sin. It may and I know that plans are ready. Paul doesn't say which Temple of God, it could be St. Peters. It could be spiritual. Like you, I think whatever it is, when it happens, that will trigger the worst part of the Tribulation.

 

[tanach]

I thought I had already replied to this but cant see any trace of my comment so if you see two answers from me thats why they are both here.
I do sympathise with your feelings about the end times philosophy as you call it but if you study the whole Bible you will realise that it all leads up to the return of Christ. The Bible is filled with refernces to the end times. I read that about 28% of all verses have some connection with the subject. Revelation has over 500 refernces alone. Most of the end times prophecies have not yet been fulfilled. When Jesus came he fulfilled every prophecy about his life and ministry so it is logical to believe that everything involving his second coming will be fulfilled as well. There is a lot of rubbish written and preached about the subject and many people would rather read the latest sensational book than study the Bible to find out what it really says about the end times.

 

[valiant]

I thought I had already replied to this but cant see any trace of my comment so if you see two answers from me thats why they are both here.
I do sympathise with your feelings about the end times philosophy as you call it but if you study the whole Bible you will realise that it all leads up to the return of Christ. The Bible is filled with refernces to the end times. I read that about 28% of all verses have some connection with the subject. Revelation has over 500 refernces alone. Most of the end times prophecies have not yet been fulfilled. When Jesus came he fulfilled every prophecy about his life and ministry so it is logical to believe that everything involving his second coming will be fulfilled as well. There is a lot of rubbish written and preached about the subject and many people would rather read the latest sensational book than study the Bible to find out what it really says about the end times.

You only make these assumptions because you read the final days of history into verses which had nothing to do with the final days of history. Many of the Scriptures regularly cited as referring to the final days of history (I do not say end times because the end times began with the first coming of Christ) are in fact referring to events which occurred long ago in history. This modern trend of thinking that the Bible's main interest is a few years at the end of history totally misrepresents Scripture, and robs Christians of clear examples of fulfilled prophecy.

Let us consider the seven year great tribulation. No such period is mentioned in Scripture. The 'great tribulation' mentioned in Matthew is clearly demonstrated in Luke's Gospel (compare the parallels) to have commenced in around 70 AD and as continuing through history. It is God's tribulation on the Jews. It includes their tribulations throughout the centuries including the holocaust. It was previously described in Deut 28.

the 'great tribulation' mentioned in Rev 7 covers all tribulation on Christians occurring from 1st century AD onwards. Those looking for it specifically in our times, except as the continuation of great tribulation on God's people as revealed in the Middle East today, will look in vain. The seven year great tribulation was a period invented in the 19th century and promoted by Darby and others, swallowed whole in America, and peripheral elsewhere.

All one can say about such theories is that they give Americans a lot of fun in inventing more and more extreme theories based on mishandling Scripture, whilst looked on with some amusement by the rest of the Christian world, apart from those heavily influenced by American teaching.

The idea that the whole of Revelation concentrates on the final few years of history is patently absurd. And I am not a preterist. And I believe both in a literal second coming and the Rapture.

 

[tanach]

I am not a Pre Tribulationist, but I disagree with your position on this subject. You asked me to compare Luke with Matthew and as far as I can see the details are much the same. One glaring similarity is that Jesus said he would return in clouds.
It didnt happen in 70AD or any time since. Have you compared these passages with the first six seals in revelation? and
What Joel says about the Moon turning to blood the Sun darkened and the Stars falling from heaven. As a Pre Wrath tribulationist I believe it is at this point in Revelation both the rapture and the second coming takes place. Pre Tribulationists make the mistake of believing that the whole week of Daniel is the tribulation. Only up to this point can it be said that Christians go through the tribulation which is the wrath of satan carried out by the antichrist. Before this also 144000 Jews receive a seal of protection The wrath of God on unbelievers follows after this. The seven years end with Armaggedon

 

[tanach]

Additions to my last posting. In 1948 Israel became a state and has had problems ever since. In 1967 Jerusalem came under Jewish control for the first time since 70AD. I do not follow every sensational mainly American pronouncements concerning the middle east but I stop short of looking on with amusement. the prophecys of the last days were not invented
in the 19th century they are to be found in the Bible. Peoples interpretations of scripture can be wrong but the word of God stands forever.

 

[valiant]

I am not a Pre Tribulationist, but I disagree with your position on this subject.

Now that's a surprise LOL

You asked me to compare Luke with Matthew and as far as I can see the details are much the same.

Yes and they clearly commence at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Jesus was answering the question as to when Herod's temple would be destroyed) and move on through the scattering of the Jews and their continual tribulation.

20 ¶ But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

One glaring similarity is that Jesus said he would return in clouds.

very true. AFTER the 2000 year great tribulation on the Jews.

It didnt happen in 70AD or any time since.

well that is not surprising. the great tribulation of the Jews has not yet ended and they have more to come.

Have you compared these passages with the first six seals in revelation?

well the first four seals commenced in 1st century AD and specifically follow Jesus' description of 'the beginning of sorrows'. - thus false Messiahs, continual war, famines, pestilences, earthquake (see Matt 24.5-8). The fifth seal is described in Matt 24.9 ff. The sixth seal is describing the end of the world. Thus the six seals sum up the whole of history from 1st century AD onwards.

and
What Joel says about the Moon turning to blood the Sun darkened and the Stars falling from heaven.

Peter referred that to what happened at the crucifixion (Acts 2.17-21). But I am happy to see it as also referring to the destruction of the universe. nothing could survive the stars 'falling from heaven' (which of course literalists assure us is NOT literal LOL). It is the great day of wrath, the final judgment.

As a Pre Wrath tribulationist I believe it is at this point in Revelation both the rapture and the second coming takes place.

And the destruction of the universe!!!!And the final judgment, the great day of His wrath..

Pre Tribulationists make the mistake of believing that the whole week of Daniel is the tribulation.

Anyone who separates the seventieth seven from the previous sixty nine sevens should simply be ignored. They are twisting Scripture to suit their purpose.

Only up to this point can it be said that Christians go through the tribulation which is the wrath of satan carried out by the antichrist.

But the tribulation is nowhere said to be the wrath of Satan carried out by the Beast. That is something else.

. Tribulation is the lot of Christians from 1st century AD as Paul himself emphasised. And as Jesus pointed out special tribulation would also be on the Jews.

Before this also 144000 Jews receive a seal of protection The wrath of God on unbelievers follows after this. The seven years end with Armageddon

the 144000 'Jews' were sealed in 1st century AD, and their witness resulted in a multitude which no man could number from 1st century AD onwards. There are no 'seven years' to come.

 

[JimmieD]

I am not a Pre Tribulationist, but I disagree with your position on this subject. You asked me to compare Luke with Matthew and as far as I can see the details are much the same. One glaring similarity is that Jesus said he would return in clouds.
It didnt happen in 70AD or any time since. Have you compared these passages with the first six seals in revelation? and
What Joel says about the Moon turning to blood the Sun darkened and the Stars falling from heaven. As a Pre Wrath tribulationist I believe it is at this point in Revelation both the rapture and the second coming takes place. Pre Tribulationists make the mistake of believing that the whole week of Daniel is the tribulation. Only up to this point can it be said that Christians go through the tribulation which is the wrath of satan carried out by the antichrist. Before this also 144000 Jews receive a seal of protection The wrath of God on unbelievers follows after this. The seven years end with Armaggedon

When Jesus talked about "coming on the clouds," he was quoting from Psalm 110 and Daniel 7:

Mark 14:61 But he was silent and did not answer. Again the high priest questioned him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 14:62 “I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Dan 7:13 I was watching in the night visions,“And with the clouds of heaven
one like a son of man as approaching.
He went up to the Ancient of Days
and was escorted before him.

But in Daniel 7, the "son of man" coming on the clouds wasn't a return to earth from heaven - it was an ascension to God's throne. The son of man was coming up to heaven, to God's throne. The picture is not of someone returning to earth on the clouds.

 

[atwhatcost]

Ack! That figures. I'm simply telling my fellow Christians we don't all agree on some stuff, and yet, poof! This becomes yet another endless debate on stuff you've really got to know (unless you're very young in the Lord), will never ever get resolved until we're in heaven with God going, "Ooooooooooooooooh! THAT's what you meant? I didn't get that either."

So, can the last person who leaves this post turn out the lights? Oh, and I would love to hear from folks who finally get it, and then have a good laugh, once they figure out we really never will agree with each other on this planet.

 

[valiant]

Additions to my last posting. In 1948 Israel became a state and has had problems ever since.

Well it depends on what you mean by Israel. If you are suggesting that everyone in Israel is a genuine descendant of Abraham you clearly do not know Biblical history or how modern 'Israel' was formed.

Furthermore modern 'Israel' is very much unbelieving Israel. That is not how the Old Testament pictured Israel as returning. Modern 'Israel' is Satan's subterfuge. And large numbers of them are atheists. In so far as there are Israelites among them they are made up of the branches that were cut from the olive tree of Israel (Jer 11.16) for unbelief.

True Israel, that is Messiah believing Israel, who formed the basis of the olive tree were Christians. And they incorporated within them Gentiles who had become Messiah believers and proselytes of Israel. They were the true Israel. They are not in Palestine. Only the fake Israel.

The only way modern 'Israel' can become a part of true Israel again is by believing on the Messiah, and Romans 9-11 properly interpreted does not favour that scenario. The true Israel is found around the world worshiping the Messiah..

The prophecies of 'the last days' were fulfilled in Christ's first coming and its aftermath.

In 1967 Jerusalem came under Jewish control for the first time since 70AD.

But not under the control of the true Israel.

I do not follow every sensational mainly American pronouncements concerning the middle east but I stop short of looking on with amusement. the prophecys of the last days were not invented

No but they have been largely fulfilled in the first coming of the Messiah.

in the 19th century they are to be found in the Bible.

which was why they were so badly misinterpreted by those who could only see Scripture as pointing directly to themselves and did not interpret Scripture correctly..

Peoples interpretations of scripture can be wrong but the word of God stands forever.

On that we can agree. And on that basis God formed the true Israel out of Messiah believers as the word of God states. (John 15.1-6; Rom 11.12-24; Eph 2.11-22; 1 Peter 2.9; James 1.1) These are the true remnant God recognises no other Israel.

No Old Testament prophecy remains unfulfilled apart from the final judgment.

 

[valiant]

Ack! That figures. I'm simply telling my fellow Christians we don't all agree on some stuff, and yet, poof! This becomes yet another endless debate on stuff you've really got to know (unless you're very young in the Lord), will never ever get resolved until we're in heaven with God going, "Ooooooooooooooooh! THAT's what you meant? I didn't get that either."

So, can the last person who leaves this post turn out the lights? Oh, and I would love to hear from folks who finally get it, and then have a good laugh, once they figure out we really never will agree with each other on this planet.

I do not expect to change the minds of those whose minds are basically closed. I write for the young seekers who want to work out the truth for themselves with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I thought you guys actually "read" the Bible. (Well, some of you) Where do you keep coming up with repeating that manmade invention of "THE GREAT TRIBULATION" as though it is a specific event? It's not in the Bible. All we were told is that there was going to be a few years of really bad trouble.

I'm pretty confident the Bible teaches a great tribulation, and one in a specific time.

Matthew 24, NASB
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever * will.
---
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." [Emphasis added]​

I think those two verses are far too specific to say that it is just a general event and perhaps more than one.

 

[mwc68]

I don't believe the end times as presented in these forums and on tv to scare people into sending money to a preacher or buy an entire fiction series on the, ummmnm rapture

 

[fredjames]

Honest. It's true.

I do believe in End Times, but we've been in it for close to 2000 years.

I do believe in the great tribulation, but as a past event. It happened in the first couple of centuries of Christianity. There is still tribulation going on today, but it's not as big a scale as that one.

I also don't believe in "the rapture." The word means "caught up," and it was used four times in the NT. Two of those times, apostles were "caught up" to heaven by God for a humongous vision.

So, yeah. I really do get the folks who believe in these things really do believe in them. I'm a bit worried that that is the only thing they have to go on with Christianity, instead of actually studying the whole Bible and learning about God to grow in him, but, sure, some churches believe in both, so that's cool.

I do know most of the thinking behind those other choices, so I'm not asking you to teach me your theories. It's not a big issue to me most of the time.

The only reason I bring this up is because so many start with something like, "As we all believe we are close to Christ coming back," and honestly? Not really "we all believe." He might return in an hour. He might return in 10,000 years. Either way, it's still the End Time, because that's the End we all wait for.

That's it. Just wanted to tell you we all don't believe that, just so you know we really don't all believe that. No big deal. Figured I'd save time in not having to tell that to those who say it.

Worse comes to worse, just take it like you found out someone in your own political party doesn't like one part of the political platform, but is still a party member. It happens. It's possible.

I now send you back to your regular-scheduled broadcast.

As you have 'testified' according to what you 'belief' on 'end times' and you 'know' they are written of 'importance' to 'all believer', therefore also 'quote' in the beginning of the 'Book of Revelation', what have been 'declared', of 'them to be of a beginner's to 'Book of Revelation importance from the beginning, as it is written', in Kingdom order, to 'stay awake' and 'be alert to'.

 

[valiant]

I'm pretty confident the Bible teaches a great tribulation, and one in a specific time.

Matthew 24, NASB
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever * will.
---
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." [Emphasis added]​

I think those two verses are far too specific to say that it is just a general event and perhaps more than one.

perfectly correct. it is describing the great tribulation on the Jews from 70 AD to the final days of the age. It has nothing to do with tribulation on Christians which is dealt with elsewhere.

 

[KohenMatt]

I've spent little time studying about the End Times stuff. I got caught up in the whole "Left Behind" thing, and it took a couple of years for God to pull me out of it. Since then, He hasn't lead me to get back into the study of End Times.

My stance? Whatever happens is OK, because I know it will happen unto His glory. I don't want to concern myself with what might happen or when it might ​happen. Today has enough trouble of its own, and enough work to do for the Kingdom. If my beliefs, actions or words are dependent on my understanding of End Times, then my focus is more on End Times and less on the ministry God has given me.

 

[dcontroversal]

Just checking, are you also amening "Matters little what you think?" I already knew we disagree on this stuff. But if I matter so little to you, then that's a different story.

Wasn't directed at you personally....was directed at the second statement made.......so no worries........!

 

[MarcR]

Lynn,

Whether or not your understanding is correct; the truth (whether or not it conforms to your belief) is true; whether or not you or I believe it.

As I understand it, Revelation seems to indicate that the Tribulation in question will be followed IMMEDIATELY by the millennial reign of Jesus; which will culminate in the White Throne Judgement.

History gives no indication that either the millennial reign or the White Throne Judgement has occurred yet. This causes me to believe that the Great Tribulation is in the very near future.


I also believe that the end time prophesy of Mt 24 and LK 21 mesh better with a future Great Tribulation closely connected with events in Modern Israel.

 

[JesusIsAll]

So, what is end times philosophy? A reemergence of Marx? Nietzsche? Maybe Yogi Berra? I remember when first saved, I devoured the gospel of John. But, for very unusual reasons at that time, moved on to Revelation, having much to do in the world with my time, but spending the better part of two years on Revelation, concentrating much later on the New Testament letters. I'd not trade time in Revelation, and related Old Testament prophets, for anything, as it states, Revelation has blessings to those who read, which tie the entire Bible together into a very neat package, great end times detail in the Old Testament. And it's more akin to a newspaper, than philosophy: "Just the facts, Mamn!" As to philosophy?

We don't need no stinking philosophy!​

 

[atwhatcost]

So, what is end times philosophy? A reemergence of Marx? Nietzsche? Maybe Yogi Berra? I remember when first saved, I devoured the gospel of John. But, for very unusual reasons at that time, moved on to Revelation, having much to do in the world with my time, but spending the better part of two years on Revelation, concentrating much later on the New Testament letters. I'd not trade time in Revelation, and related Old Testament prophets, for anything, as it states, Revelation has blessings to those who read, which tie the entire Bible together into a very neat package, great end times detail in the Old Testament. And it's more akin to a newspaper, than philosophy: "Just the facts, Mamn!" As to philosophy?

We don't need no stinking philosophy!​

Same definition as it's been all my life.