Are You Pro-Life?

[santuzza]

Seeing as you're against the killing of innocent life, shouldn't you protest 100% of capital punishments where there is doubt?

Well, I (maybe naively) believe in our justice system. Convicted murderers are automatically given several appeals to higher courts, so I believe any of these "mistakes" are very, very rare. Convicted murderers sit on death row for years, even decades, during this appeals process, so I feel quite confident that anyone given capital punishment today actually committed the crime for which he/she is convicted. I'm sure there have been problems in the past, but I just don't believe they happen today.

 

[notuptome]

What then of the innocent lives taken by murderers? Shall they not be avenged?

God leads governments in the matter of justice of those who commit murder and other crimes worthy of death.

I do not trust governments but I do trust God. Until we have Christ on the throne and ruling the world in perfect peace we will need to rely upon the goodness of God to administrate our quite imperfect human governments.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Depleted]

Can you point me in the direction of those passages in the NT please?

Are you saying the OT doesn't count anymore?

 

[wwjd_kilden]

God made us, he should decide when we die.

What matters is Capital Punishment is Biblical..............but, in my fleshy weakness, I would find it hard to vote to put someone to death..........just being honest. Capital Punishment has nothing to do with the Two Covenants.

As for your second scenario, as you aren't from the US, maybe in your country there are examples of the State executing innocent people. I am not aware of any innocent person here in the US being executed. Now, some have been found guilty, and sentenced to Death Row, but prior to their execution, Justice ended up being served, and their innocence was found out. The Appeals Process here in the US for Death Row inmates is so long and drug out, that it is almost impossible for an innocent person to be executed.

There may be one that I am not aware of, but I can not think of any instance this has happened, so your question is moot.

here is no way to tell how many of the more than 1,000 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some cases with strong evidence of innocence include: Carlos DeLuna Texas - Conviction: 1983, Executed: 1989
Ruben Cantu Texas - Convicted: 1985, Executed: 1993
Larry Griffin Missouri - Conviction: 1981, Executed: 1995
Joseph O'Dell Virginia - Conviction: 1986, Executed: 1997
David Spence Texas - Conviction: 1984, Executed: 1997
Leo Jones Florida - Conviction: 1981, Executed: 1998
Gary Graham Texas - Conviction: 1981, Executed: 2000
Claude Jones Texas - Conviction: 1989, Executed: 2000
Cameron Willingham Texas - Conviction: 1992, Executed: 2004
Troy Davis Georgia - Conviction: 1991, Executed: 2011
Lester Bower Texas - Conviction: 1984, Executed: 2015

Executed But Possibly Innocent | Death Penalty Information Center

 

[notuptome]

God made us, he should decide when we die.





here is no way to tell how many of the more than 1,000 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some cases with strong evidence of innocence include: Carlos DeLuna Texas - Conviction: 1983, Executed: 1989
Ruben Cantu Texas - Convicted: 1985, Executed: 1993
Larry Griffin Missouri - Conviction: 1981, Executed: 1995
Joseph O'Dell Virginia - Conviction: 1986, Executed: 1997
David Spence Texas - Conviction: 1984, Executed: 1997
Leo Jones Florida - Conviction: 1981, Executed: 1998
Gary Graham Texas - Conviction: 1981, Executed: 2000
Claude Jones Texas - Conviction: 1989, Executed: 2000
Cameron Willingham Texas - Conviction: 1992, Executed: 2004
Troy Davis Georgia - Conviction: 1991, Executed: 2011
Lester Bower Texas - Conviction: 1984, Executed: 2015

Executed But Possibly Innocent | Death Penalty Information Center

Just have to love that folks who have not heard the specifics of the cases know better than the jury who listened to the evidence presented and found reasonable cause to render a verdict of guilty.

Of course all the people in prison are innocent. Who is God to declare that whosoever sheddeth mans blood by man shall his blood be shed? The audacity of some people.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nautilus]

Are you saying the OT doesn't count anymore?

no one said anything close to that, but continue following the sabbath and not eating pork if it makes you feel better

 

[PeterJens]

One has to be honest. The justice system is very bad at executing the right people. They stay in prison so long before their execution it is often a life sentence + death.

Because our society can afford to keep these often nutcases locked up, it is better exercising the concept of isolation over the death sentence being some kind of just outcome. Too many innocents end up with their lives taken away, to say being light on the few guilty is worth giving those who walk in false accusation a chance to clear their name.

The bigger problem as demonstrated in the US 25% of prisons who are there for life sentences are so insane there is little hope they can function in normal society and are victims of their own emotional instability and violence. Who is the victim and who is the guilty?

 

[tourist]

I'm very much pro-life where the unborn is concerned.

 

[KimPetras]

Well babies are innocent ... criminals are criminals and I doubt that anyone on death row is "innocent" ... And its not a matter of convenience its a matter of justice ... The bible tells us that God has ordained they be punished for their evil....

We are talking about "innocent" in respect to the crime they alleged committed. Yes, babies are innocent, they didn't do anything wrong, and people on death row have been innocent and are innocent. I read a study that about 4% of people in US death row are more than likely innocent.

The last time I checked, putting potentially innocent people to death isn't the only way a state can punish people. I'm not sure why people believe it is the only form of justice.

 

[KimPetras]

Yes, there are "innocent" people who are convicted and put to death... daily. Some governments are murderous. But a simple wrongful conviction and execution doesn't make the state a murderer. Rather, it makes the state fallible. Murder is the conscious, intentional killing of another for no good reason. Capital punishment for a serious crime is a good reason. We live in a fallen world, and even the most careful legal proceedings may be wrong at times, because they are influenced by fallen humans.

I disagree. Murder is the shedding of innocent blood premeditatively. One isn't "accidentally" executed, thus, it is premeditative. If there is doubt, how could anyone argue for capital punishment? That seems irresponsible.

Let me ask you a question: If a person truly doesn't believe an unborn child is a human being, is it not murder to abort it because they'd rather not have children right away? Your definition states it's not murder because the mother wasn't aware (conscious) that the unborn is no different than the already born.

 

[KimPetras]

Romans 13:3-4 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from the fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

A sword is a weapon for killing. This verse is reasonably clear that authorities are God-ordained to use deadly force. Does this mean that the force is only used appropriately? No, of course not, and many authorities who have misused it will answer to the One who gave it. Judgment Day will not be a happy time, but justice will be done.

Genesis 16:3

So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.


We see what is reported and one can (reasonably) assume that God ordained polygamy. I happen to disagree with anyone that interprets scripture in this way, the way you're doing with Romans 13:3-4. Furthermore, you imply the pro capital punishment stance because it mentions the sword. Christ told us to pay taxes to Ceasar too. We know there are many things that are legal, but are immoral in the eyes of God. Lastly, there isn't only one brand of "justice" or "judgment".

 

[KimPetras]

Which would we rather have... a society where the danger of error exists side-by-side with the threat of death for serious crimes, or a society where even the most heinous crimes are treated lightly, and there is no fear of God as a result? I think given the fallen, sinful world we live in, the former would result in a more careful legal system, and overall a better society. But that's just my opinion.

For your conclusion, you set up a straw man argument. No one is wanting to slap potential killers on the wrist for their crimes. We just advocate that if it's not 100% certain that they are guilty of said crime, side with caution and don't execute them. Many would argue life in prison is a far greater punishment than death. It's hardly a slap on the wrist.

 

[KohenMatt]

Simple question: Are you for or against capital punishment? Does capital punishment reflect the old covenant or the new covenant?

Secondary question: If taking an innocent man's life is murder, what punishment do you give the state that executes an innocent man that would have been exonerated if he was still alive? Is the state consider to be "murderers"?

Not quite so simple in my book.

I'm Pro-life in regards to abortion.
I'm not so much when it comes to Capital Punishment.

 

[KimPetras]

Well, I (maybe naively) believe in our justice system. Convicted murderers are automatically given several appeals to higher courts, so I believe any of these "mistakes" are very, very rare. Convicted murderers sit on death row for years, even decades, during this appeals process, so I feel quite confident that anyone given capital punishment today actually committed the crime for which he/she is convicted. I'm sure there have been problems in the past, but I just don't believe they happen today.

Let's assume it is very very very rare. Out of all executed prisoners, 1/1000 were innocently executed (which we know isn't as rare). Does that life not matter to you or society? Do you just say to the family, "sorry, we weren't 100% certain he was guilty and we killed him anyway"? That isn't sorrow if you'd do the same exact thing again. If 1/1000 unborn children were aborted, wouldn't that still be a travesty?

I don't hold it against you that you think your judicial system is perfect (you said you specifically don't think that happens today). I don't even think the biggest pro capital punishment people would agree with your claim that it's perfect now.

 

[KimPetras]

What then of the innocent lives taken by murderers? Shall they not be avenged?

God leads governments in the matter of justice of those who commit murder and other crimes worthy of death.

I do not trust governments but I do trust God. Until we have Christ on the throne and ruling the world in perfect peace we will need to rely upon the goodness of God to administrate our quite imperfect human governments.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Romans 12:19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

I don't know if God leads government. It's fair to say your faith in government is much greater than mine. Especially when we look at the American justice system. The inequality of demographics is quite pronounced between the races who are sentenced to death. I won't attribute that to "God's doing".

 

[KimPetras]

Are you saying the OT doesn't count anymore?

No........

 

[KimPetras]

I'm very much pro-life where the unborn is concerned.

Is your stance: exercise caution with the unborn but not for the already born, potentially innocent people sentenced to death?

I find it fascinating how in American politics, democrats and republicans are completely flipped. Republicans are pro-life, typically, when the unborn is concerned, Democrats are pro-choice. Democrats are pro-life, typically, when it's the already born, Republicans are pro capital punishment.

 

[santuzza]

Let's assume it is very very very rare. Out of all executed prisoners, 1/1000 were innocently executed (which we know isn't as rare). Does that life not matter to you or society? Do you just say to the family, "sorry, we weren't 100% certain he was guilty and we killed him anyway"? That isn't sorrow if you'd do the same exact thing again. If 1/1000 unborn children were aborted, wouldn't that still be a travesty?

I don't hold it against you that you think your judicial system is perfect (you said you specifically don't think that happens today). I don't even think the biggest pro capital punishment people would agree with your claim that it's perfect now.

No, I'm not going to assume it is very very very rare. I truly believe it simply doesn't happen today. So, yes, I believe that anyone in the US is executed, I truly believe that person is guilty of the crime of which he/she is convicted. So there is no need for "sorry." I'm not saying our judicial system is perfect in all ways, but when it comes to capital punishment, I think it's 100% right. Those are today's standards -- I'll admit, not the standard of yesteryear, but today, yes.

I don't feel guilty about my convictions in this regard -- I sleep well at night.

 

[KimPetras]

No, I'm not going to assume it is very very very rare. I truly believe it simply doesn't happen today. So, yes, I believe that anyone in the US is executed, I truly believe that person is guilty of the crime of which he/she is convicted. So there is no need for "sorry." I'm not saying our judicial system is perfect in all ways, but when it comes to capital punishment, I think it's 100% right. Those are today's standards -- I'll admit, not the standard of yesteryear, but today, yes.

I don't feel guilty about my convictions in this regard -- I sleep well at night.

Just as I'm sure there are women who have abortions sleep well at night because they are misled into believing the life they aborted wasn't really human life.

I'm curious if you're unique in thinking your judicial system, in regard to capital punishment sentences, is the equivalent of God's judgment; completely free of fallibility. That is quite a confident statement.

 

[notuptome]

Romans 12:19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

I don't know if God leads government. It's fair to say your faith in government is much greater than mine. Especially when we look at the American justice system. The inequality of demographics is quite pronounced between the races who are sentenced to death. I won't attribute that to "God's doing".

I do trust the Lord. God operates through men in the form of governments in the matters of social order. When we had kings life was cheap and one could be executed for little or no cause.

Evil men rob others of their life. God is the judge of all men which is what your verse in Romans is teaching. Jesus said fear not those who can kill and can do no more but fear God Who is able to condemn eternally.

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

For the cause of Christ
Roger