That particular Scripture has nothing at all to do with a visible appearance of Jesus after His assention.
I have to ask you why you would use that Scripture.
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That particular Scripture has nothing at all to do with a visible appearance of Jesus after His assention.
I have to ask you why you would use that Scripture.
LOL.......I am from the great Promised Land of Upper Alabama. I am old enough to know what an "outhouse" was.
Right now it is 6:15 PM and our Prayer service starts a 7:00 so I can not respond now. I will be back in the morning and try to accommodate you.
John 21.25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
why do you ask so? Flowery is right before your eyes?
T
TheWaytoGo
Guest
[QUOTE="Corban, post: 4457585, member: 298250"
There are, to my knowledge, 13 mentions of "wrath" in the Book of Revelation Ten say it is "God's wrath", starting with Chapter 6 and ending with Armageddon in Chapter 19. I would say that the whole 3½ years from the Abomination of Desolation to Armageddon is the "wrath of God"
Think on these things.[/QUOTE]
Had to crop you too.
Revelation is not chronological, so each occurrence of the word wrath has to be taken independently. In both Chapter 6 and 11, two different accounts of the same event, is describing God’s Wrath and both are speaking of the day of the Lord, His 2nd Coming:
Rev 12:12 is a confirmation that the final 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation is Satan’s Wrath, not God’s. Despite what pre-trib teachers teach, the Bible says Satan delivers his wrath during the great Tribulation as seen here being thrown down to the earth mid-trib:
Rev 14:10 is warning that anyone worshipping the Beast or his image or taking his Mark will receive God’s Wrath IN THE FUTURE, when it is poured out on the devil and his angels.
Rev 14:19 shows the earth being reaped at the harvest (the dead in Christ have just been raised, and the living Saints have just been raptured, and the rotten fruit of the world are being put into the vinepress of God’s Wrath. Then, Rev Chapter 15, goes on to describe each of the 7 bowls of God’s Wrath upon earth. This is what the Saints are promised to be kept from - these seven bowls of God’s Wrath. Just as with Noah and Lot, God has rescued His Children, then immediately, He completely destroys the unrighteous ones. (He doesn’t wait 7 years to destroy them).
[***Jesus will cut the final 3.5 years short somewhere, no one knows by how much, I suspect it won't be much, because He said if He didn't no one would be left alive. I don't believe many church Saints will be living at rapture time].
Your #1) Php 3:10-11 I don't see a match with 1 Thess or any rapture evidence here. Paul states we are saved by faith, but as continually appears throughout the New Testament, it reveals to us what accompanies true faith. Pauls says:
The prize is the resurrection, the upward call is our goal of heaven and escape from hell.
The Saints will NOT be taken by surprise of the day of His Coming, the ones who claim to be Christians and make a show of it on the outside, but ARE NOT sanctified on the inside, they will be overtaken like a thief in the night, not those of the true faith:
Your #3) Every word to the 7 churches begins with “I know thy works…” Every church received a commendation from Jesus but one - Laodicea. He was not happy with Sardis, but told them to strengthen what they do have. Laodicea is our present church for sure. Wealthy, lazy, self indulged, filled with corruption, sexual sin, abortions (murders) and worldliness, with a faith neither hot nor cold. He will spit most of them out of His mouth.
In Rev: 3:10, He is promising to keep them from God’s Wrath. (As noted in the verse above, the 7 years of tribulation are Satan's Wrath, not God's). Every Saint throughout history, has faced tribulation and persecution to some degree (even death). The 7 year tribulation is not known as the great Wrath, it is called by Jesus a time of great TRIBULATION. Jesus promised us in the world we will have tribulation.
There are degrees of rewards (crowns) at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but there is no respect of persons in God, no levels of Saints. Our works after salvation will be judged, but all His chosen ones are equal and precious to His love for the Son, who covered our sins and made us pure.
Jesus is the firstfruts. He and He alone. The rest of us will be resurrected at the same time on the day of His Second Coming. This is the absolute progression of the events upon His Second Coming:
There are, to my knowledge, 13 mentions of "wrath" in the Book of Revelation Ten say it is "God's wrath", starting with Chapter 6 and ending with Armageddon in Chapter 19. I would say that the whole 3½ years from the Abomination of Desolation to Armageddon is the "wrath of God"
Think on these things.[/QUOTE]
Had to crop you too.
Revelation is not chronological, so each occurrence of the word wrath has to be taken independently. In both Chapter 6 and 11, two different accounts of the same event, is describing God’s Wrath and both are speaking of the day of the Lord, His 2nd Coming:
Rev 12:12 is a confirmation that the final 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation is Satan’s Wrath, not God’s. Despite what pre-trib teachers teach, the Bible says Satan delivers his wrath during the great Tribulation as seen here being thrown down to the earth mid-trib:
- Rev_12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."
The first 3.5 years is a false peace and security for the earth, and the second half is Satan’s wrath.
Rev 14:10 is warning that anyone worshipping the Beast or his image or taking his Mark will receive God’s Wrath IN THE FUTURE, when it is poured out on the devil and his angels.
Rev 14:19 shows the earth being reaped at the harvest (the dead in Christ have just been raised, and the living Saints have just been raptured, and the rotten fruit of the world are being put into the vinepress of God’s Wrath. Then, Rev Chapter 15, goes on to describe each of the 7 bowls of God’s Wrath upon earth. This is what the Saints are promised to be kept from - these seven bowls of God’s Wrath. Just as with Noah and Lot, God has rescued His Children, then immediately, He completely destroys the unrighteous ones. (He doesn’t wait 7 years to destroy them).
[***Jesus will cut the final 3.5 years short somewhere, no one knows by how much, I suspect it won't be much, because He said if He didn't no one would be left alive. I don't believe many church Saints will be living at rapture time].
Your #1) Php 3:10-11 I don't see a match with 1 Thess or any rapture evidence here. Paul states we are saved by faith, but as continually appears throughout the New Testament, it reveals to us what accompanies true faith. Pauls says:
- We will KNOW Him
- We will have fellowship in His sufferings (we will suffer),
- We will be conformed to His death. Conform from the dictionary - made to resemble; assuming the same form (we will deny ourselves in this world and die daily to sin, and yes, if called to, die as He did as a result of our faith):
Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
The prize is the resurrection, the upward call is our goal of heaven and escape from hell.
- Pro 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
- Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.
- Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
The Saints will NOT be taken by surprise of the day of His Coming, the ones who claim to be Christians and make a show of it on the outside, but ARE NOT sanctified on the inside, they will be overtaken like a thief in the night, not those of the true faith:
- 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
- 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
- 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Your #3) Every word to the 7 churches begins with “I know thy works…” Every church received a commendation from Jesus but one - Laodicea. He was not happy with Sardis, but told them to strengthen what they do have. Laodicea is our present church for sure. Wealthy, lazy, self indulged, filled with corruption, sexual sin, abortions (murders) and worldliness, with a faith neither hot nor cold. He will spit most of them out of His mouth.
In Rev: 3:10, He is promising to keep them from God’s Wrath. (As noted in the verse above, the 7 years of tribulation are Satan's Wrath, not God's). Every Saint throughout history, has faced tribulation and persecution to some degree (even death). The 7 year tribulation is not known as the great Wrath, it is called by Jesus a time of great TRIBULATION. Jesus promised us in the world we will have tribulation.
- Joh_16:33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
- 2Co 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 8 ...I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
There are degrees of rewards (crowns) at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but there is no respect of persons in God, no levels of Saints. Our works after salvation will be judged, but all His chosen ones are equal and precious to His love for the Son, who covered our sins and made us pure.
Jesus is the firstfruts. He and He alone. The rest of us will be resurrected at the same time on the day of His Second Coming. This is the absolute progression of the events upon His Second Coming:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
The problem I see with Jesus appearing to anyone after His Ascension, is because of what He said regarding His return to end the age:
"So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
Jesus said the above so that the people would be able to tell the difference between false Messiah's and the real Messiah, who would arrive on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Therefore, if He was to appear to others, say, during our lifetime time, it would defeat the Lord's purpose for giving us those instructions.
That's my take on it anyway.
Matt 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
why not during your lifetime?
The verse above has nothing to do with the Lord appearing to people. It has to do with a leader going back into the sinful nature represented by eating and drinking with drunkards, etc. and then the Lord coming while he's in that state.
But you think the LORD come late，I'm not saying you're a bad servant.I just want to remind you.But, you know, it's all for your sake.
I don't understand what you are saying.
I originally responded to the OP, stating that for Jesus to be appearing to people would defeat His purpose of warning us in His word regarding false Messiah's. He said that the way you would know true Messiah from the false one's, is that He would arrive on the clouds of heaven. He also said that, "the Messiah is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it." So if you have people saying that Jesus appeared to them, then His warning would have no validity. It would be in direct opposition to what He warned us about.
Have you heard anyone say that so far?
"the Messiah is in the wilderness"or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms"
I haven't heard anyone say that yet.
If I tell you now that Jesus has been come in the clouds, as the Bible says, do you still not believe it as "the Messiah is in the wilderness"or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms"?
I just want to remind you that Jesus won't be late.so be it.
You have taken much time and trouble to give your point of view - for which I thank you. I also respect that we have differing views of things. If I have to answer every point you made, a book will be needed. So if you'll allow, I'll just comment of those that were my points you called into question. I'll also have to crop you to make the 10,000 character limit.
I laid forth 13 times that the word "wrath" is used in Revelation, and shewed that 10 of them, across the remainder of Revelation, were God's wrath. You ignore these 10 and base the Great Tribulation as Satan's wrath on ONE verse. And this, despite (i) the prediction in Romans 1:18 that it is God's wrath revealed FROM heaven because of ungodliness, not Satan's wrath revealed from earth because his time is short, (ii) the prediction that it is God who, after much longsuffering, pours out wrath on Israel and the Gentile equally (Rom.2:4-8), (iii) that it is the Beast's setting up of his effigy that precipitates the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24:15-21, and (iv) that Revelation 2:22 reveals God, not the devil, casting Gentile idol-worshipers into "Great Tribulation".
In Philippians 3 you skirted around verses 10-14. The language is plain. Paul alludes to a an "ex"-anastasis, used only once in the Bible. You did not mention the fact that ALL men will be raised whether they like it or not (1st Cor.15:22), so resurrection does not have to be "stretched for", or, "attained to". It is this once mentioned "out-resurrection" that must be striven for. So also is the rapture guaranteed for the Christian because we must ALL stand before the Bema (the traveling throne), not the "Thronos" (the Throne of glory fixed on earth). To overturn my argument you cannot skirt around the "resurrection out of the resurrection". If Paul thought, just three odd years before his martyrdom, that he hadn't made it yet, it would seem to me that you and I had better pay much attention to it - unless you have more than Paul did in his ministry.
I think we should agree that the word "hell" is a mis-translation. It appears nowhere in the Hebrew or the Greek. Translators, as talented as they were, and as blessed as they were, were emerging from 1,000 years of Roman Catholicism mythology. The Bible uses three different words, Gehenna, Hades and Tartaroo. "Hell" is a concept born in Babylon. "Gehenna", used interchangeably with "perdition", is a STATE of exquisite "lack of well-being" (Vine). "Hades" is an abyss in the heart of the earth that contains the souls of dead men waiting for resurrection. And "Tartaroo" is another section of the abyss that contains angels (who are spirits) who mated with women (2nd Pet.2:4).
I addressed Luke 21:36. You countered with Luke 21:27. But you failed to address my argument as to how a man can "stand" before the Son of man, BEFORE the Tribulation has even begun.
As to "being with the Lord at death", you will note that I did not say anything about that. I said that there is no evidence in the whole Bible that dead men go to heaven. The thief who called on Jesus was promised to be "WITH the Lord in Paradise". Ephesians 4:8-9 says that our Lord "FIRST descended", Matthew 12:40 it says that it was to "the heart of the earth", and Psalm 2 and Acts 2 says He was in Hades. Then, our Lord said to Mary near His tomb, that He had not "YET" ascended to His Father, but that He would do so presently. Added to this, In Matthew 16, our Lord Jesus said that He would build His Church, but that the main enemy of the Church was Hades. Why? Because it imprisoned the disembodied souls of the believers. Its gates needed to be OVERCOME for the RESURRECTION of BODIES because the Church is made with BODIES (1st Cor.6:15). In Acts 2, 50 days after Christ exited Hades and took His BODY, and 10 days after Christ ascended to heaven, the Holy Spirit inspires Peter to say that David's tomb is still with them and him buried, and David himself was still in Hades.
The case of our Lord Jesus, the case of David, and the LACK of a single verse that plainly states that dead men go to heaven, are then SUPPLEMENTED by the fact that (i) dead men are naked, (ii) dead men are unclean, and (iii) dead men are disembodied make them ineligible to appear in heaven before a holy God. The only objection that you have brought is that we are with the Lord in death. But the Thief was with the Lord - but in Hades, and because the Lord is OMNIPRESENT, he will be with the souls of dead men by His SPIRIT - IN HADES, as Psalm 139:8 testifies.
The only men in heaven are LIVING men (e.g. Enoch, Elijah and our Lord Jesus Himself). And if you are still unsure, then explain why dead men RISE. Jesus ROSE. The "dead in Christ RISE". In fact, not a single dead man who was resurrected "descended", which you would expect it they were in heaven. 1st Corinthians 15:23 tells when the dead in Christ will RISE. It is "AT HIS COMING" - just like 1st Thessalonians 4 say - at the LAST trump.
I realize that we all suffer from the effects of Rome's 1,000 years of locking the bible away and promulgating their Babylonian religion. It took me years to thrash out these above truths. I don't expect you to change overnight. But I think you'll agree, I have some valid proofs.
T
TheWaytoGo
Guest
You have to read the entire passages. I was directing to you to their location. You would have a difficult time finding any biblical scholar who doesn't know Jesus is the angel of the LORD.
This is a well put together post. I enjoyed reading it. However, I would like to point out a couple of things one must take into consideration, when thinking about the disposition of the "soul" when the body dies.
The soul does indeed go to be with the Lord but it does not go without a body, The Human is a tripartite being. Made up of a Body, Soul and Spirit. Just as God is Triune, made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Paul, upon his death, was expecting to be in the full presents of the Glory of the Lord. This is born out by the following verses:
Php 1:21-23 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if to live in the flesh,--if this shall bring fruit from my work, then what I shall choose I know not. But I am in a strait betwixt the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ; for it is very far better:
Paul would not see his death as "gain", if he believed he was going to be in some sort of soul sleep or waiting for the Resurrection. He fully expected to be where Christ is, sitting at His feet, enjoying the promises fulfilled. Worshipping and singing before the Lord in his glorified body. He spoke of this reality in the following verses:
2Co 5:1-4 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life.
Paul was not expecting his "soul" to be found without a body, as many teach but rather it would be instantly clothed upon by a body prepared by God. This body is the glorified body. A body like Christ's. If we put these two elements of Scripture together, it is no wonder that Paul said he was "betwixt" about whether to "live" or "die". If we are not to be immediately "clothed upon" and be with the Lord in Glory, then what would be the gain?
Additionally, believers are sometimes confused on the Resurrection because they do not properly consider ETERNITY. Eternity knows no time. There is order in eternity but there is no time. When one dies and steps into eternity, that one steps into the "Ever Present Now". This means that there can be no waiting in eternity. There is no past or future. This is why Paul knew he would be clothed upon and be in the presents of the Lord with all the saints. Only those left behind are waiting because our existence here is "Temporal". Everything is governed by time. For the one stepping out of time and into Eternity, the Resurrection has already been accomplished but for those left behind, it is still future. It is difficult for us who are Temporal, to get our heads rapped around the concepts of Eternity. Most make the mistake of thinking about the Eternal existence as being similar to what they have know in the Temporal experience. Our being in Eternity is not about longevity, it is about quality.
That's incorrect. The souls leaves the body when the body dies. It will remain bodiless until a physical resurrection.
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You don't understand Eternity. As far as it being incorrect, prove that from Scripture please.