At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[mailmandan]

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That verse is very clear, TODAY we have to OBEY and do what GOD tells us to do but it's only has to be done ONCE.

IN THE WATER CALLING UPON HIS NAME.

One must not reach their conclusion on doctrine based upon one or two pet verses. Are these verses very clear? Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

*These Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. No water mentioned here. Calling upon the name of the Lord is relying on the name of the Lord, trusting in Him for salvation. When one calls upon Jesus to save them, they are trusting in Him to come to their aid. Inherent in their calling upon the name of the Lord is the essential faith in Jesus Christ that He can and will save them.

 

[studier]

That is similar to Grok found on Twitter/X.
It can not be used for personal spiritual growth, as it should be done with an anointed teacher presenting exegesis. .

That is like reading from Chat GTP that Bob T. Jones, Jr. teaches 3 different aspects needed in building a strong house.

Vs...

Actually listening to Bob T. Jones, Jr., teaching how to build a strong house in three ways.

Nonsense. That's like saying none of us can read or study under the tutelage of God the Holy Spirit.

At this point in history IMO the pulpit - at least one that's used for teaching and not entertaining - has been turned into a college level lecture with little to no opportunity to interact with the teacher to ask questions that may even challenge him. And whether any of us like or admit it or not, what version of theology one ends up getting is a crapshoot.

I think one of the interesting things coming out of this digital age and becoming better and better is the ability to get different takes on interpretations. In this light I would ask @Inquisitor to follow up on the James query and ask what the different interpretations of James are and, in those interpretations, how "justified" is interpreted.

If this tech is used properly, there may be an outcome where some reasoning is developed and not just the ingesting of one camp's systematic theology. Of course, the flip side is the tech ends up determining what it thinks is the truth and that's all it puts forth. But right now, it's a compiler and will provide the gamut of interpretations if queried properly. With some basic understanding of the various theological camps, it's takes a second for AI to tell us what camp theology someone is teaching.

At some point it seems we're going to have to get down to more unity of thought and away from all this denominational division. AI seems it's the next tool. We'll see. Everyone thinks the Spirit is teaching them or their teachers. If so, He seems quite divisive. But we know He's anything but that.

 

[studier]

God appointed pastor/teachers, not translator/harmonizors.

Seriously? You don't think God gifted translators? There are God's people on this earth in the background still scouring the earth for more manuscripts and other things to assist in translating and understanding the Word better.

Maybe we should take all the non-translating pastor-teachers out of the pulpits and force the translators without the teaching gift to teach. Or do all translators have the teaching gift? Then why do they prefer to translate and exegete and harmonize and write for others rather than stand in a pulpit?

And then, gifted teachers have been taught and are teaching different theologies and creating a denominational mess.

Something's wrong and being allowed by God for some purpose, but God has appointed many in the Body to do many things.

Ask @GWH what he means by harmonizers. They are most certainly God appointed as are translators working to translate the Text in every known language. Maybe men have failed God once again and all teachers and some congregants should be speaking tongues.

 

[rogerg]

One must not reach their conclusion on doctrine based upon one or two pet verses. Are these verses very clear? Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

*These Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. No water mentioned here. Calling upon the name of the Lord is relying on the name of the Lord, trusting in Him for salvation. When one calls upon Jesus to save them, they are trusting in Him to come to their aid. Inherent in their calling upon the name of the Lord is the essential faith in Jesus Christ that He can and will save them.

@Ouch

V2:39 is also important to its understanding:

[Act 2:39 KJV] 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[studier]

ChatGPT:

Q: what are the different interpretations of "justified" in the book of James?

The term "justified" in the Book of James, particularly James 2:14–26, has been the subject of significant theological interpretation and debate, especially because it appears to contrast with Paul’s use of the term in letters like Romans and Galatians. Here are the different interpretations of "justified" in James, particularly James 2:21–24:


1. Justified = Vindicated or Demonstrated as Righteous (Protestant View)

• Key Idea: James is not saying we are made righteous by works, but rather that faith is shown to be genuine through works.
• Support:
  • James 2:18: "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."
  • James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
• Interpretation: "Justified" here means proven or vindicated — faith is demonstrated to be real by accompanying actions.
• Theological Tradition: Common in Reformed and Evangelical traditions (e.g., John Calvin). Emphasizes that works are the fruit of faith, not the cause of salvation.

2. Justified = Made Righteous by Works (Catholic View)

• Key Idea: James teaches that faith and works together bring justification — a synergistic process.
• Support:
  • James 2:21: "Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?"
  • James 2:24 directly contradicts a simplistic reading of "faith alone."
• Interpretation: Justification involves both initial grace (faith) and cooperation with that grace (works).
• Theological Tradition: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox. Emphasizes that justification is a lifelong process involving both belief and behavior.

3. Justified = Covenantal Faithfulness (New Perspective on Paul)

• Key Idea: “Justification” is more about being recognized as a member of God’s covenant people, not just legal or moral righteousness.
• Support:
  • The Jewish context of James and the reference to Abraham.
  • James is addressing how believers demonstrate their covenant loyalty.
• Interpretation: "Justified" could mean recognized or affirmed as a true covenant member by the way one lives.
• Theological Tradition: Associated with scholars like N.T. Wright. Seeks to harmonize James and Paul by seeing them addressing different concerns.

4. Justified = Eschatological Vindication

• Key Idea: James could be referring to justification at the final judgment, where works will confirm one's faith.
• Support:
  • James’ emphasis on future judgment (e.g., James 2:12–13; 5:7–9).
• Interpretation: "Justified" points to the ultimate vindication before God, where faith and works are both part of God’s final assessment.
• Theological Tradition: Appears in both Protestant and Catholic interpretations that emphasize future judgment.

Summary Table

View Meaning of "Justified" Key Verse Emphasis
Protestant Vindicated as having true faith James 2:18 Works as evidence
Catholic Made righteous through faith + works James 2:24 Synergistic salvation
New Perspective Shown to be a covenant member James 2:21 Covenant loyalty
Eschatological Future vindication at judgment James 5:9 Final judgment context



My Notes: Bottom line for me is I know I believe Jesus is the Christ and I am submitted to Him and growing in this. But theology and the interpretation of the Text is much varied and debated. I'm secure in the basic and am watching what others like the New Perspective on Paul are doing and am open to all of this information and to thinking it through pursuant to how I read the Text in Christ in Spirit, and I've learned how to translate Greek (and do some basic work in Hebrew) to compare my thoughts to any of this. I've put reliance on any specific theological camp tradition pulpit in the rear-view. Scripture and the Spirit are the task IMO.

 

[Genez]

I assume your agreeing with Chat GPT?

Where does Chat GPT get its data from?
It had to be programmed by men.

Chat GPT is great for collecting facts concerning topics you feed it.
It is a sophisticated Google search machine.

But as far as the following truth is concerned?

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound ​

more and more in knowledge and depth of insight. Philippians 1:9​

It's only a corpse.
No insight which is granted by the Holy Spirit as God wills.

Insight is what wins wars...

And..... starts them as well.

 

[Genez]

Nonsense. That's like saying none of us can read or study under the tutelage of God the Holy Spirit.

?????

Missing the point is not a good thing.

 

[Genez]

My Notes: Bottom line for me is I know I believe Jesus is the Christ and I am submitted to Him and growing in this. But theology and the interpretation of the Text is much varied and debated.

Debated?
Not everyone finds truth.
Many only find facts that they do not know what to do with.

Remember. Jesus warned of the state of the church it would become...

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road ​

that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate ​

and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14​

There are many denominations. Broad and wide.
Many opinions. Broad and wide.

Few find what God wants us to find.

That requires guidance by the Holy Spirit....
Not human logic alone.

Nor demonic counterfeits in guidance which will be away from finding what is needed to be known.

When Satan approached Jesus in tempting him to turn the stones into bread, he approached Jesus as
a concerned friend would! That is to be found by someone understanding the nuance of the Greek text.

Need I say more?

 

[GWH]

God appointed pastor/teachers, not translator/harmonizors. Anyone can teach what they have been taught, some do it better than others but the appointment of pastor/teacher is specially equipped beyond what the average person can understand from simply reading scripture and praying about it, no matter how smart they might be. If it were not so, there would be no need for the appointment. It is best utilized when one so gifted applies themself to the various categories of study. We are all disciples (learners), we are not all teachers but there are those who think they are even though they have not been appointed. A true pastor/teacher who is well trained will receive insight the rest of us won't see.

I do not view Paul's lists of God's gifts as intended to be exhaustive or limited to only what he cited,
but I find it interesting that you disparage translating in one breath and extol RBT for translating in the next.
I also find your concept of appointment to border on papalism, because you do not know whom God specifically appoints.
Pastor/teachers, parents and all Christians are generally appointed/commissioned to teach others GW including insights.

 

[Ouch]

One must not reach their conclusion on doctrine based upon one or two pet verses. Are these verses very clear? Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

*These Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. No water mentioned here. Calling upon the name of the Lord is relying on the name of the Lord, trusting in Him for salvation. When one calls upon Jesus to save them, they are trusting in Him to come to their aid. Inherent in their calling upon the name of the Lord is the essential faith in Jesus Christ that He can and will save them.

The problem is you can't SEE. JESUS said in John 3:5 UNLESS A MAN IS BORN OF WATER AND OF SPIRIT THEY CAN NOT ENTER.....

Acts 10 BOTH HAPPENED!!!

Romans, Paul is speaking to the CHURCH those who have spoke in tongues and were baptized!!!! Romans 10:9 is a perfect verse proving not once saved always saved!! Paul was telling them TO GET OUT AND COFESS JESUS to stay saved. Read on you will see he tells them HOW CAN PEOPLE HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER.

How many times does the word baptism have to come up with you???? How many times the foundation need to take place????

When was 3 thousand souls added in Acts 2? AFTER THEY OBEYED AND WAS BAPTIZED.

 

[studier]

Debated?
Not everyone finds truth.
Many only find facts that they do not know what to do with.

Remember. Jesus warned of the state of the church it would become...

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road ​

that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate ​

and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14​

There are many denominations. Broad and wide.
Many opinions. Broad and wide.

Few find what God wants us to find.

That requires guidance by the Holy Spirit....
Not human logic alone.

Nor demonic counterfeits in guidance which will be away from finding what is needed to be known.

When Satan approached Jesus in tempting him to turn the stones into bread, he approached Jesus as
a concerned friend would! That is to be found by someone understanding the nuance of the Greek text.

Need I say more?

The problem is that you think you've found the truth and only your theological camp has the Spirit, but so do others think and profess the same thing. And, yes, interpretation in many things of Scripture is still debated and there is continuing research and analysis taking place even if you don't think it matters.

Statements like your next to last here are all well and good but without explaining the language it's just a statement made by a guy on the internet who likes a certain pastor so maybe it's accurate and maybe it's not.

Why should anyone trust you? At least take some of that teaching and lay it out in a post and let others determine if it's accurate. Post a link to the teaching so if anyone cares they can watch or listen or read.

 

[studier]

?????

Missing the point is not a good thing.

Clear it up for me if I've misunderstood something.

 

[Inquisitor]

Where does Chat GPT get its data from?
It had to be programmed by men.

Chat GPT is great for collecting facts concerning topics you feed it.
It is a sophisticated Google search machine.

But as far as the following truth is concerned?

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound ​

more and more in knowledge and depth of insight. Philippians 1:9​

It's only a corpse.
No insight which is granted by the Holy Spirit as God wills.

Insight is what wins wars...

And..... starts them as well.

If you restrict AI to the New Testament text, then that is the only source it uses.

AI is an extremely complex machine not even the AI analysists know what it is thinking.

AI will provide a near perfect literal reading of the text.

The programmers and designers of the AI system have no input into how it reads the text.

We use Chat GPT-4 but Chat GPT-5 comes out in July and is much more powerful.

The important point is that AI provides an almost error free, literal reading of the text. That means the text
is read as it was written by the author.

Where this is critical in the N.T. is in the letter to the Romans.

As far as I can detect; not one historical church or theologian has ever considered the context in Romans.

 

[studier]

As far as I can detect; not one historical church or theologian has ever considered the context in Romans.

Interesting comments. I've been looking at Romans once again for the past 2-3 days and seeing something I'd never seen before.

What do you mean by your last statement?

 

[Magenta]

Man is born in transgression and sin (Psalm 51 verse 5, + 58 verse 3), dead in transgressions (Ephesians 2 verse 5), his heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), held captive by a love for sin (John 3 verse 19; John 8 verse 34), so that he will not seek God (Romans 3 verses 10-11), because he loves the darkness (John 3 verse 19), and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), nor can he change himself (Jeremiah 13 verse 23). He suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1 verse 18) and continues to willfully live in sin because he is totally depraved; this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14 verse 12); they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1 verse 18), and their mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8 verse 7).

 

[Kroogz]

The problem is that you think you've found the truth and only your theological camp has the Spirit,

So, have you found the truth?

Our"theological camp" KNOWS believers have the Spirit. But we also know that believers can grieve or quench the Spirit.

This is very elementary:

Christ died for the whole world. Thus, anyone can believe and be saved.

Anyone who has ever trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation will NEVER PERISH. NEVER come into condemnation.

Very basic, starting line Christianity. A kindergartner can discern these very basic truths.

Anyone who doesn't have a grasp on these VERY BASIC truths.......Is grieving or quenching the Spirit. And is going NOWHERE in the Christian way of life.

 

[Genez]

I do not view Paul's lists of God's gifts as intended to be exhaustive or limited to only what he cited,
but I find it interesting that you disparage translating in one breath and extol RBT for translating in the next.
I also find your concept of appointment to border on papalism, because you do not know whom God specifically appoints.
Pastor/teachers, parents and all Christians are generally appointed/commissioned to teach others GW including insights.

Only after being taught properly should that be the case.

But, keep in mind, to be learning under people like Paul and Peter?
That was light years ahead of the pabulum that most of today's churches churn out.

Add to that. When looking around to see how well one is doing?
It can also mislead one to think he is doing just fine.

 

[Genez]

If you restrict AI to the New Testament text, then that is the only source it uses.

AI is an extremely complex machine not even the AI analysists know what it is thinking.

AI will provide a near perfect literal reading of the text.

The programmers and designers of the AI system have no input into how it reads the text.

We use Chat GPT-4 but Chat GPT-5 comes out in July and is much more powerful.

The important point is that AI provides an almost error free, literal reading of the text. That means the text
is read as it was written by the author.

Where this is critical in the N.T. is in the letter to the Romans.

As far as I can detect; not one historical church or theologian has ever considered the context in Romans.

When a prepared gifted anointed teacher is teaching, the Spirit could have him grabbing from anywhere in the entire Bible
to construct a completed premise and answer.

AI does not get that from the Holy Spirit.
AI does not have the leading to say something that the hearer needs to hear.

 

[Kroogz]

Only after being taught properly should that be the case.

But, keep in mind, to be learning under people like Paul and Peter?
That was light years ahead of the pabulum that most of today's churches churn out.

Add to that. When looking around to see how well one is doing?
It can also mislead one to think he is doing just fine.

Matt7~~
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

All believers are eternally saved. But very few are finding Life in this life.

 

[Inquisitor]

Interesting comments. I've been looking at Romans once again for the past 2-3 days and seeing something I'd never seen before.

What do you mean by your last statement?

Chat GPT-4 will answer your question.

The letter to the Romans has been foundational in Christian theology—especially in the development of doctrines like justification by faith—but a literal and contextual reading, with a careful eye on Paul’s audience (Jews and Gentiles) and his specific purpose, reveals ways the historical Christian church has misunderstood or flattened its meaning.


Here’s how the historical church has often misunderstood Romans:


1. Over-Individualizing the Message

Historical Misunderstanding: Romans has often been read primarily as a treatise on individual salvation—how a person gets saved and goes to heaven.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
Paul's argument is deeply communal and covenantal, addressing how Jews and Gentiles together become one people in the Messiah. The concern is not just individual justification but the formation of a unified, multi-ethnic people of God (cf. Romans 3:29–30, 11:17–24, 15:7–13).


2. Ignoring the Jew–Gentile Dynamic

Historical Misunderstanding: The church has often read Romans as though it were written to Gentile Christians in general, omitting the internal Jewish context.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
Paul is directly addressing tensions between Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome—probably caused by the return of Jews after Claudius’s expulsion (Acts 18:2). The epistle functions partly as a pastoral correction to Gentile arrogance (see Romans 11:17–21) and a redefinition of Jewish identity in light of the Messiah (Romans 2:17–29; 9–11).


3. Supersessionism (Replacement Theology)

Historical Misunderstanding: Many Christian traditions have interpreted Romans as teaching that the Church replaces Israel, meaning Jews are no longer part of God's plan.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
Paul goes out of his way in Romans 11 to deny this. He says God has not rejected His people (Rom. 11:1), speaks of a future restoration of Israel (11:12, 26), and warns Gentiles not to be arrogant (11:18). Paul's metaphor of the olive tree stresses inclusion, not replacement.


4. Misreading “Law” (Torah)

Historical Misunderstanding: Romans is often used to argue that “the Law is bad” or that the Torah was a failed system replaced by grace.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
Paul has a nuanced view. He upholds the goodness of the Law (Romans 7:12), but argues that Torah cannot be the basis for righteousness for Gentiles or Jews in the new covenant age (Romans 3:20–22). It’s not the Law that failed; rather, human sinfulness misused it. Paul’s point is that righteousness is now revealed apart from the Law, yet it confirms the Law (Romans 3:31).


5. Flattening “Justification” into a Forensic Transaction

Historical Misunderstanding: Justification has often been interpreted in purely legal or forensic terms—an individual being declared righteous.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
While there is legal language, justification is also covenantal—about who belongs to God’s family and on what terms. For Paul, Gentiles are justified apart from the works of the Law, not just because faith is better than works, but because Torah observance was never the requirement for Gentiles to begin with. Romans 4 is about Abraham as the father of both circumcised and uncircumcised—a deeply ethnic and boundary-defining claim.


6. Neglecting the Theme of Unity

Historical Misunderstanding: The Church has often mined Romans for doctrinal points while missing its unifying pastoral aim.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
Romans 14–15 shows Paul’s concern that Jewish and Gentile Christians accept one another, especially when they have differing practices regarding food, Sabbaths, and festivals. This unity reflects God's plan to unite all nations under Messiah Jesus (Romans 15:7–13), fulfilling promises to Israel so that Gentiles may glorify God.