atheists

[megaman125]

I don't agree Bryan. If I see something that convinces me ghosts are real, and from that point forth in my life I am convinced of the existence of ghosts, my experience (no matter how real to me) is not evidence that ghosts are real -- at least not to anyone else but me.

Here's the thing, you don't need to worry about the fact that not everyone believes the same thing. You should be most concerned with what you believe. By the way you're talking here, I would be willing to make the leap that you would agree that a personal experience is good evidence for the person in question. From my opinion, I would say a personal experience is the strongest evidence for that individual. Why? Because it's something you can't take away from anyone. My personal experience is that I had an evil spirit cast out of me in the name of Jesus. I've had people try and fight tooth and nail telling me that I definetly didn't have that happen to me. But you know what? Those people were there. They don't know squat about my personal experiences, and they don't get to dictate whether or not my personal experiences validate my personal beliefs.

I don't know what experience some have had that convinces them they were kidnapped by aliens, but regardless of how life changing the experience is for them, it can't possibly persuade me. I am still convinced that whatever it was they experienced they are simply misinterpreting the event; and unless you believe in alien abductions you will likely agree with me that their experience, however real to them, was not really a visitation from space. Life changing experiences do happen, but they are not proof that the interpretation of the experience is correct.

I've had people tell me the same thing about my personal experiences. You're free to believe whatever you want, but if you were to tell me that your opinion is that I didn't have an evil spirit cast out of me, but I'm simply misinterpreting the event, I'm equally as free to not believe you. My beliefs are not dictated by what you believe about my personal experiences. Now here's the difference between us. I didn't come here as a Christian, to a Christian site, to be convinced that I didn't have an evil spirit cast out of me. I'm not here to become a non-Christian. You on the other hand, are a non-Christian on a Christian site. If your goal in coming here is to convince Christians to give up their beliefs, I'll give you some advice. Give up right now, becuase it won't happen. You will not convince one Christian on here to becomming an atheist. (But given what I've seen from your posts, this doesn't describe you, but I figured it'd be good to say for completeness and for other readers who it may apply to.)

I must tell you that I too had a life changing experience (and I am not making this up just to prove a point. I really did have such an experience). Mine persuaded me, beyond all doubt, that God is not real. Is my life changing experience evidence that God is not real?

Now here's what's interesting to me. I'm interested in hearing about your experience.

 

[Bryancampbell]

I don't agree Bryan. If I see something that convinces me ghosts are real, and from that point forth in my life I am convinced of the existence of ghosts, my experience (no matter how real to me) is not evidence that ghosts are real -- at least not to anyone else but me.

I don't know what experience some have had that convinces them they were kidnapped by aliens, but regardless of how life changing the experience is for them, it can't possibly persuade me. I am still convinced that whatever it was they experienced they are simply misinterpreting the event; and unless you believe in alien abductions you will likely agree with me that their experience, however real to them, was not really a visitation from space. Life changing experiences do happen, but they are not proof that the interpretation of the experience is correct.

I must tell you that I too had a life changing experience (and I am not making this up just to prove a point. I really did have such an experience). Mine persuaded me, beyond all doubt, that God is not real. Is my life changing experience evidence that God is not real?

That's why you missed God by a long shot, you're looking for signs and evidences. Christian life by a change in lifestyle is a completely different change than what you mentioned. To find God, is to realize He is finding you.

 

[danschance]

I don't agree Bryan. If I see something that convinces me ghosts are real, and from that point forth in my life I am convinced of the existence of ghosts, my experience (no matter how real to me) is not evidence that ghosts are real -- at least not to anyone else but me.

This empirical logic leads us to disbelieve things we can not perceive or understand. "I've never seen a supernova so it must not exist." So your "proof" that ghosts don't exist is based on your perceptions, is very faulty.

I must tell you that I too had a life changing experience (and I am not making this up just to prove a point. I really did have such an experience). Mine persuaded me, beyond all doubt, that God is not real. Is my life changing experience evidence that God is not real?

Testimony evidence is tied in with credibility. A homeless drunk claims to see a pink elephant and no one believes him. Then 4 policemen, 2 truckers, a construction worker and a nurse all claim to of seen a pink elephant near the hospital on the same day and time...we can conclude there really was a pink elephant there.

I was an atheist and later believed there must be a God and if He is real, I need him. Since that time I have seen more proof He exists and once in a while He speaks to me. Right now on this site, there are more ex-atheists who became Christians than actual atheists. Once you get to know them you discover they are credible and that should make you wonder if your conclusions are correct or not.

 

[Kerry]

Hey the 700 club is doing a 5 part series on how Israel has been blessed in the face of brutal attacks by the Muslims. I don't agree with all there teaching. But, this is good stuff.

 

[Starcrash]

This empirical logic leads us to disbelieve things we can not perceive or understand. "I've never seen a supernova so it must not exist." So your "proof" that ghosts don't exist is based on your perceptions, is very faulty.

One does not need to "see" things in order to gain evidence, and you ought to keep in mind that there is nothing irrational about belief in supernovas -- there is no counter-evidence. Skepticism is a very rational viewpoint in which we don't believe in things without good evidence. Not believing and disbelieving aren't necessarily the same thing -- you're arguing that this is "proof" of ghosts not existing, but rather it's an argument about why we shouldn't believe in ghosts without better evidence.

A good reason to doubt any one's religions claims is that all religions make similar claims and they all claim to offer the same "kind" of evidence -- it tends to be based on a presupposition of the truth of their respective holy texts, on faith, on vague prophecies, and on philosophical arguments that could prove any god if true (the cosmological argument, the teleological argument, etc.) with hope that a person swayed by these arguments would automatically assume that they must be arguments for your god. From an outside perspective, all religions look the same. You claim to see "proof He exists" and claim that "He speaks to [you]", and yet you believe you've found proof of your God because you never looked for proof of anyone else's God (or for the non-existence of any god), and people from every religion claim to speak to their gods. They all offer the same evidence that you do: personal conviction of the truth, anecdotal evidence, faith. When other religions can't persuade you of the truth of their beliefs with this evidence, can't you see why it's similarly worthless to atheists?

 

[Starcrash]

That's why you missed God by a long shot, you're looking for signs and evidences. Christian life by a change in lifestyle is a completely different change than what you mentioned. To find God, is to realize He is finding you.

Any member of any religion can make this claim. "Signs and evidence" are the only way one could differentiate this religion from mere faith in a non-existent being. I'm sure all of the false religions would like you to avoid testing them or asking for "signs and evidence".

 

[Bryancampbell]

Any member of any religion can make this claim. "Signs and evidence" are the only way one could differentiate this religion from mere faith in a non-existent being. I'm sure all of the false religions would like you to avoid testing them or asking for "signs and evidence".

I don't avoid it, actuality through testimonies do we receive the truth (gospel). How can you, a human, believe what scientist, biologist, tv narrators, etc they say and how they have "proven" anything if you yourself weren't there? You have faith in what they tell you. Thus, you making an objection to our scripture is an objection to your man told belief.

 

[Kerry]

Hey crashed star, maybe you can be the one that evolution has chosen to rebut Israel. Can you. Explain Israel from an atheist point of view. Israel proves God. Yet you refuse to accept it. Show me wrong. Prove that Israel existence is not bible. If you can. Show me where a monkey became a man, you can not. Live the lie that has deceived you. God created this earth and its inhabitants give one shred of evidence that says otherwise. You can't. Show me. Israel is my witness show me yours.

 

[Starcrash]

Here's the thing, you don't need to worry about the fact that not everyone believes the same thing. You should be most concerned with what you believe. By the way you're talking here, I would be willing to make the leap that you would agree that a personal experience is good evidence for the person in question. From my opinion, I would say a personal experience is the strongest evidence for that individual. Why? Because it's something you can't take away from anyone. My personal experience is that I had an evil spirit cast out of me in the name of Jesus. I've had people try and fight tooth and nail telling me that I definetly didn't have that happen to me. But you know what? Those people were there. They don't know squat about my personal experiences, and they don't get to dictate whether or not my personal experiences validate my personal beliefs.

What you're describing is known as "anecdotal evidence". There are many good reasons to avoid using anecdotal evidence -- for one thing, while you may believe in your conclusions (because you're personally biased to do so), there are people who have had mutually exclusive experiences and are just as certain of their own conclusions. A good example of this would be someone who regularly prays to Allah or Zeus, gods whose existence are incompatible with your own. Should you believe that they've talked to these gods just because of their certainty that they did so? Of course not. We can't believe in the existence of Allah, Zeus, and Yahweh (they're mutually exclusive), and so we have to doubt someone's anecdotal evidence.

Another good reason to reject anecdotal evidence is that people are often wrong about their own experiences. Hallucinations really do happen, as do problems with perception such as Prosopagnosia, Amnesia, and Change Blindness. Visual illusions are another way to wake us to the reality that we don't always perceive things as they really are. And of course there are innumerable biases that prevent us from correctly and objectively interpreting our personal experiences. The same experience for one person may be perceived as an alien abduction, for another a demon possession, and for another a physical disease -- it depends on one's biases, environment, and information or lack of it.

So, when you claim that you had an evil spirit, one might chalk up extra voices in your head to natural causes such as Schizophrenia. If you think you had an exorcism, one might see that as a seizure. There is no way to detect a demon through scientific means, and there are natural alternative explanations. So why should anyone believe that you had an evil spirit just because you think you did?

 

[Starcrash]

Hey crashed star, maybe you can be the one that evolution has chosen to rebut Israel. Can you. Explain Israel from an atheist point of view. Israel proves God. Yet you refuse to accept it. Show me wrong. Prove that Israel existence is not bible. If you can. Show me where a monkey became a man, you can not. Live the lie that has deceived you. God created this earth and its inhabitants give one shred of evidence that says otherwise. You can't. Show me. Israel is my witness show me yours.

As I've argued before, one does not have to believe in both evolution and be an atheist. There are Christians that believe in evolution, and there are atheists that don't believe in evolution. But even someone who believes that evolution happens does not believe that "a monkey becomes a man"... that stems from a misunderstanding of evolution.

As an atheist, it's true that I don't believe that "Israel proves God"... but I don't see why it would, either. Can you explain further, perhaps as a logical syllogism? (A syllogism is a set of premises and conclusion that follow a logical structure, such as 1. All men are mortal, 2. Socrates is a man, 3. Therefore, Socrates is mortal.)

 

[Starcrash]

I don't avoid it, actuality through testimonies do we receive the truth (gospel). How can you, a human, believe what scientist, biologist, tv narrators, etc they say and how they have "proven" anything if you yourself weren't there? You have faith in what they tell you. Thus, you making an objection to our scripture is an objection to your man told belief.

Why would you have to "be there" to believe someone's conclusion? I'm certain this isn't a standard that you follow, so I don't see why you're holding me to it.

There are good and bad standards for belief. If a scientist claims to have "proven" that there is water on Mars, for instance, I would like to know how he "proved" it -- it isn't good enough to take his word simply because he's a scientist. If he, for example, had a motive for proving it beyond simply spreading knowledge, then I'd have a very good reason to disbelieve him. If his proof wasn't testable, that would be an excellent reason to disbelief him. But if, on the other hand, he could show me ways to test it myself given methods that I've already used in the past to my satisfaction, then that would be a good reason to believe him.

I hate these arguments about all beliefs being based merely on faith, if for no other reason then that it cheapens your own faith. You're arguing that I ought to doubt conclusions from "scientists, biologists, tv narrators, etc." because they are believed on faith, and yet your own beliefs are based on faith. Is faith good or not? But luckily I don't have to take everything on faith. The scientific method is available to anyone who wishes to use it. Have you ever considered subjecting your beliefs to tests, such as you belief that prayer works? It has to be a *real* test, one that could actually be failed... for instance, you could pray for the result of a die roll to come up with a certain number every time (such as 5). Pray 100 times and see if it comes up more often than chance would predict (14-18 times). If not, then prayer is not a "variable"... that is, prayer and rolling a die will get you the same result as simply rolling a die, which means that prayer is ineffective. You don't have to take someone else's word for it, or believe it on "faith"... gather some of your own evidence.

 

[Kerry]

Yes all men are mortal, Crashed Star. The only way to be immortal is to place your faith in Christ. Israel proves God. No if ands or buts about it. Evolution cannot say that. Evolution has never produced a missing link and never will. My father is not a monkey, maybe yours is. Crashed Star, show evidence of evolution that does not include millions of years. Man is going on 6,000 years and no more. Show me when we started wearing clothes. I can show you when we did. Pets go back to the beginning and God gave us dominion over the animals of the Earth. I can show where God said that the animals will fear us. When did I learn to drive a car. When did I learn to give a chicken for some paper. Think of what you are saying and that it makes no sense. Evolved into what. A chimpanzee is exactly what god created them to be. A snake is exactly what God said they would be and Israel is exactly what God said they would be. Any questions?

 

[Bryancampbell]

Why would you have to "be there" to believe someone's conclusion? I'm certain this isn't a standard that you follow, so I don't see why you're holding me to it.

There are good and bad standards for belief. If a scientist claims to have "proven" that there is water on Mars, for instance, I would like to know how he "proved" it -- it isn't good enough to take his word simply because he's a scientist. If he, for example, had a motive for proving it beyond simply spreading knowledge, then I'd have a very good reason to disbelieve him. If his proof wasn't testable, that would be an excellent reason to disbelief him. But if, on the other hand, he could show me ways to test it myself given methods that I've already used in the past to my satisfaction, then that would be a good reason to believe him.

I hate these arguments about all beliefs being based merely on faith, if for no other reason then that it cheapens your own faith. You're arguing that I ought to doubt conclusions from "scientists, biologists, tv narrators, etc." because they are believed on faith, and yet your own beliefs are based on faith. Is faith good or not? But luckily I don't have to take everything on faith. The scientific method is available to anyone who wishes to use it. Have you ever considered subjecting your beliefs to tests, such as you belief that prayer works? It has to be a *real* test, one that could actually be failed... for instance, you could pray for the result of a die roll to come up with a certain number every time (such as 5). Pray 100 times and see if it comes up more often than chance would predict (14-18 times). If not, then prayer is not a "variable"... that is, prayer and rolling a die will get you the same result as simply rolling a die, which means that prayer is ineffective. You don't have to take someone else's word for it, or believe it on "faith"... gather some of your own evidence.

Evidence is my changed life. Things I never seen I have been revealed through God. Good things work together than it did when I was part of the world. The sad thing is, only those who believe experience the evidence, because it takes faith first before seeing greater things. God knows man too well dude, He knows that humans will debate about evidence, so in turn God says, show me your faith then I'll show you evidence. But because the world is secular, they want it their way, thus they cannot see the living God. If a scientist showed you methods, how do you know they actually work? I can show you a video of me speaking but completely cut out my voice and put in my mothers and tell you yes I did use my mouth see see see its my voice. So your statement again is invalid friend. You have faith in their words.

 

[GreenNnice]

Were you created in the womb or did you evolve (into being) ?

Evolve - develop gradually, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.

Doesn't someone have to 'develop' some thing ?

Create - bring (something) into existence.

Doesn;'t someone have to 'bring' something into existence ?

------------------ --------------------- -------------------
bryancampell:

Evidence is my changed life. Things I never seen I have been revealed through God. Good things work together than it did when I was part of the world. The sad thing is, only those who believe experience the evidence, because it takes faith first before seeing greater things. God knows man too well dude, He knows that humans will debate about evidence, so in turn God says, show me your faith then I'll show you evidence. But because the world is secular, they want it their way, thus they cannot see the living God. If a scientist showed you methods, how do you know they actually work? I can show you a video of me speaking but completely cut out my voice and put in my mothers and tell you yes I did use my mouth see see see its my voice. So your statement again is invalid friend. You have faith in their words.

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. Hebrews 11:1

 

[Starcrash]

Yes all men are mortal, Crashed Star. The only way to be immortal is to place your faith in Christ. Israel proves God. No if ands or buts about it. Evolution cannot say that. Evolution has never produced a missing link and never will. My father is not a monkey, maybe yours is. Crashed Star, show evidence of evolution that does not include millions of years. Man is going on 6,000 years and no more. Show me when we started wearing clothes. I can show you when we did. Pets go back to the beginning and God gave us dominion over the animals of the Earth. I can show where God said that the animals will fear us. When did I learn to drive a car. When did I learn to give a chicken for some paper. Think of what you are saying and that it makes no sense. Evolved into what. A chimpanzee is exactly what god created them to be. A snake is exactly what God said they would be and Israel is exactly what God said they would be. Any questions?

Yes, I didn't get my questions answered before. Did you read my reply carefully or skim it? I didn't argue that "all men are mortal"... I offered that as an example of a syllogism, because I didn't understand why "Israel proves God". And instead of clarifying that argument, you simply repeated it. Why would "Israel prove God"???

I also pointed out why evolution is a red herring (distraction), because god could either be real or fake and neither of them would have anything to do with whether evolution is true or not. Seriously, are you even reading what I'm saying?

Since you can't be coherent long enough to offer your "Israel proves God" argument, let me instead make an argument of my own -- "Retardation disproves God". It is not God's will that anyone should be sick or infirmed, given the sheer amount of time and energy that Jesus spent curing people. A sickness given to a child upon birth has certainly not been earned by the child through sin as a punishment, and punishing a child for the sins of the parents is unjust (would you consider it fair or just if you went to jail for a crime that your parents committed?). And even if there could be a reasonable explanation for God "cursing" children with mental retardation, why would it not have a cure? There isn't a single instance of a mental handicap going away through prayer or by other means. In a universe where your God existed, the existence of mental retardation would not exist.

 

[Starcrash]

Evidence is my changed life.

See my response to megaman125 about why your personal anecdotal evidence is poor evidence, or simply answer why by telling me why a Muslim who claims that Allah changed his life doesn't make you doubt your beliefs.

 

[Bryancampbell]

See my response to megaman125 about why your personal anecdotal evidence is poor evidence, or simply answer why by telling me why a Muslim who claims that Allah changed his life doesn't make you doubt your beliefs.

Funny my Muslim friend has changed somewhat in being devote but he himself is drawing to Christ. What's your point lol?

 

[Starcrash]

Were you created in the womb or did you evolve (into being) ?

Evolve - develop gradually, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.

Doesn't someone have to 'develop' some thing ?

Create - bring (something) into existence.

Doesn;'t someone have to 'bring' something into existence ?

This isn't a thread about evolution... it's about atheism. While evolution and atheism often coincide (because atheists don't have a motive to doubt the scientific evidence for it), there are Christians who believe in evolution and atheists that don't. It's a different argument, one that will not solve the question of God's existence.

 

[Starcrash]

Funny my Muslim friend has changed somewhat in being devote but he himself is drawing to Christ. What's your point lol?

A quick use of the "find" function of my browser doesn't locate one instance of "Christ" or "Jesus", but finds 47 instances of "Allah". Are you in denial or just ignorant of the fact that Christ and Allah are two different theoretical beings?

 

[Bryancampbell]

A quick use of the "find" function of my browser doesn't locate one instance of "Christ" or "Jesus", but finds 47 instances of "Allah". Are you in denial or just ignorant of the fact that Christ and Allah are two different theoretical beings?

Allah isn't Yahweh. My friend changed to be more devout Muslim, but because I share my belief, he is slowly believing the bible. By that he now says he believes in the Qur'an and the bible. Jesus is drawing his heart because this man is actually attempting to believe.