Baptism a condition for salvation?

[Robo36]

Baptism a condition for salvation?

Throughout the New Testament we’re promised that believing in Christ is the condition for being saved to salvation. Yet John 3-5, Jesus tells us “Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Are we therefore told by the Christ that there are more conditions to achieve eternal life than simply believing in him? Is there salvation without baptism?

What do you believe, and why?

 

[Magenta]

I believe it is the baptism by/of the Holy Spirit of God which saves.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What do you believe, and why?

How about giving us your belief?

 

[TooFastTurtle]

I believe everyone must be water baptized. If someone places their faith in Christ and is walking to get water baptized and gets ran over by a bus, that person will go to heaven. God looks at the heart.

 

[morefaithrequired]

Thank God ive been baptised! I remember it well...I was only one month old and …..

 

[oldethennew]

here's the crux, most will follow their choice or man made creeds, handed-down or newly found, symbolic traditions -
read your Bibles and find out for yourselves what our Saviour requires of us - if you follow Him, then here is what will happen =
peace of mind - love- joy - release of satanic bondage/fear!!!, etc. - what more could a 'human ask for'???

 

[DB7]

Many consider baptism with water to be an act of works, and therefore would disqualify it as a necessary requirement for salvation i.e. sola fida.
One must admit though, that the Book of Acts has a couple of occasions where the new converts were baptized with water, immediately after their conversion.

Acts 8:38
8:38. And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
Acts 10:47
10:47. Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."

But then, there are situations where it is either implied or intimated that water was not used, either due to the numbers who were converted, or due to the contrast between John's baptism of repentance, and Jesus' of salvation through faith.

Acts 1:5
1:5. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 2:38
2:38. Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:41
2:41. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Acts 11:16
11:16. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

And even then, there are just some ambiguous verses where, as for me, I'm really unsure if water was used or not?

Acts 9:18
9:18. Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,
Acts 16:15
16:15. When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us.
Acts 16:33
16:33. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.
Acts 18:8
18:8. Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.
Acts 19:5
19:5. On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 22:16
22:16. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

But, if I had to take a stand on whether or not water baptism is requisite for salvation, i would say absolutely no.
We're all aware of the superfluous nature of external works, as in the Law, i.e. they do not reveal what's truly in the heart, for even a charlatan or heathen can fake a physical act that implies devotion.
Plus, as stated earlier, it is an act of works, and works don't save, only belief in Christ's atoning work saves.
I would regard water baptism as simply an overt statement of your repentance, in that, it's almost more for others to see and be persuaded towards the growing faith, than having any edifying or salvific value for the one being baptized.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello @Robo36, your OP questions are important ones because having a proper understanding of John 3:5 is so vital .. but .. it's also a very difficult verse (& passage) to exegete properly, and because it is, it's very controversial. The biggest problem that we have with this verse (as I'm sure you already know) is due in large part to the 3 word phrase, "born of water", and then, to a lesser degree, the entire phrase (which is either "born of water and the Spirit" ~or~ "born of water and spirit").

As a result, several churches/denominations teach, for instance, that water baptism is salvific, as well that one's salvation can be achieved apart from saving faith in Christ (e.g. paedobaptism). So it seems to me that the first thing that we need to decide (as we look at this verse/passage a little more closely) is this: is water baptism what John 3:5 is actually referring to/teaching (which is a discussion that should prove to be an interesting one around a place like this ).

Here are the links to two short articles that take a look into that question (and others).

https://www.gotquestions.org/born-of-water.html​

​

https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html​

Looking forward to reading more as it comes in

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - I thought I'd include the passage in question for easy reference.

John 3​

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;​

2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”​

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”​

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”​

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’​

8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​

​

 

[StrugglingTilMyReward]

I don't know that my two cents will add much here, but I'll toss them out none the less.

I take comfort in the fact that the very men Jesus chose as his disciples....that many times they're quoted in scripture as not understanding what they're being taught. If Jesus was able to tolerate their lack of understanding when He was with them in the flesh, I'm convinced I will be forgiven if I don't undersand everything one hundred percent perfectly.

I also look at Jesus' regard for the Pharisees, or rather His lack of regard for them....the Pharisees were the religious leaders of their day, and they knew scripture upside down inside out and backwards....in some respect I think ChristianChat has similar type members, eager to dole out scriptural truth and understanding while wearing a mantle of near perfect authority.

I've wondered about baptism myslef. I don't know exactly how old I was when I was baptized...I was less than a year, and somewhere I have a copy of the order of service from the church we attended.

Long story short, if my infant baptism wasn't sufficient I'm confident that I can be forgiven for not having it done at the proper age or in the proper way.

 

[JaumeJ]

Alwayhs bear in mind the Pharisees were the beginning of a new umbrella faith (as is the word Christian) called
Judaism. There was no such denomination in the Word until about this time. Since that time it has begotten many denominations within the shade of that umbrella, much like Christianity.

In the sight of our Father, there really is no such thing as Judaism. Jesus, Yeshua, taught the faith of Abraham....

 

[dcontroversal]

Baptism a condition for salvation?

Throughout the New Testament we’re promised that believing in Christ is the condition for being saved to salvation. Yet John 3-5, Jesus tells us “Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Are we therefore told by the Christ that there are more conditions to achieve eternal life than simply believing in him? Is there salvation without baptism?

What do you believe, and why?

No....and Jesus qualifies that statement by saying....that which is born if flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit.....baptism (water) is a work of righteousness.....works do not save, help save, keep saved, top off oalvation and or finish salvation.....it is the first act of obedience, a picture of what has taken place inwardly by faith and is the public declaration of our faith into the finished work of Christ!

 

[wattie]

John 3:5.. the context is about the water at birth.. of the womb.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Baptism a condition for salvation?

Throughout the New Testament we’re promised that believing in Christ is the condition for being saved to salvation. Yet John 3-5, Jesus tells us “Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Are we therefore told by the Christ that there are more conditions to achieve eternal life than simply believing in him? Is there salvation without baptism?

What do you believe, and why?

1. Jesus did not mention baptism in john3. In fact, he explained what he meant about being born again and how, “whoever believes will never perish and have everlasting life,
2. baptism of the Hs is required, but this is not something we do, but something god does to us by immersing us into Christ, his death and his body, in the spiritual circumcision made without hands,
3. baptism in water, like communion, and giving and everything else god instructed his children to do, is a work of sanctification, not justification, we are justified (saved) by grace through faith, apart from works.

 

[mailmandan]

Baptism a condition for salvation?

Throughout the New Testament we’re promised that believing in Christ is the condition for being saved to salvation. Yet John 3-5, Jesus tells us “Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Are we therefore told by the Christ that there are more conditions to achieve eternal life than simply believing in him? Is there salvation without baptism?

What do you believe, and why?

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated in that case, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth which is accompanied by amniotic "water" and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, Divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises eternal life/salvation to those who simply believe/place faith in Christ for salvation. (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

 

[Adstar]

Baptism a condition for salvation?

Throughout the New Testament we’re promised that believing in Christ is the condition for being saved to salvation. Yet John 3-5, Jesus tells us “Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Are we therefore told by the Christ that there are more conditions to achieve eternal life than simply believing in him? Is there salvation without baptism?

What do you believe, and why?

The Baptism of water Jesus was talking about was natural birth.. It was not the religious practice of being baptized in water.. The Pharisee talking with Jesus that night understood what Jesus was talking about when he responded to Jesus..

John 3: KJV
1 "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: {2} The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. {3} Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {4} Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? {5} Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. {6} That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

So the born of water is linked with being born of flesh which is natural birth.. The unborn child is in the womb in a sack of water..

John the baptist revealed that the baptism of Jesus would be different then the symbolic baptisms he was performing..

Mark 1: KJV
5 "And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. {6} And John was clothed with camel’s hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; {7} And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. {8} I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."

Note the following scriptures talking about a man who was lacking in knowledge and where He was lacking::

Acts 18: KJV
24 "¶ And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. {25} This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. {26} And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Baptism a condition for salvation?

Throughout the New Testament we’re promised that believing in Christ is the condition for being saved to salvation. Yet John 3-5, Jesus tells us “Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Are we therefore told by the Christ that there are more conditions to achieve eternal life than simply believing in him? Is there salvation without baptism?

What do you believe, and why?

Eternal salvation is by god's grace without any action on the part of man, otherwise, grace is no more grace, but if it be of works then is it no more grace, otherwise, work is no more work. Romans 11:6. Believing in the things of the Spirit is a product of already being born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2. The natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit, they are foolishness to him until he is born again, 1 Cor 2:14. Getting baptised is also a product of already being born again and although it can deliver you here in time, it is not a requirement for eternal deliverance, neither is believing a requirement for eternal deliverance. In John 3:5 the Kingdom of God is referencing the bride of Christ, the church, which Christ is the king of. The church, in the scriptures, is depicted by several different names, such as; The church of Christ, the new Jerusalem, the church of the first born, the church in the wilderness, the few, the remnant, and more.

 

[notuptome]

Ac 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Clearest bible passage on water baptism. No infant baptism and water only after belief. Water is not regenerative only evidential.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Robo36]

How about giving us your belief?[/QUOTE

The reading of my Bible brother is often a very confusing study. I come here for the understanding of other Christians and their counsel so to aid in my understanding. If you have nothing to offer to this question, I fully understand also your confusion with the scriptures. I seek no arguments brother, I only seek understanding, fellowship, counsel with other Christians and interest in what and how others believe. I seek the favor of the Christ brother, not confrontation with others.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The reading of my Bible brother is often a very confusing study.

The Gospel was not meant to be confusing. Just one Bible passage (Ephesians 2:8,9) should be sufficient to show you that baptism is NOT necessary for salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Does this mean that baptism should not follow immediately upon conversion? Absolutely not. You can go right through the Acts of the Apostles and discover that as soon as anyone was saved he or she was baptized by immersion. Because that is Christ's COMMANDMENT. If you are a believer and you have not been baptized, you should do so as soon as possible.

At the same time you should be aware that there are MANY CHURCHES AND DENOMINATIONS falsely teaching their adherents that baptism is necessary for salvation. You should simply disregard them.

 

[garee]

Baptism a condition for salvation?

Throughout the New Testament we’re promised that believing in Christ is the condition for being saved to salvation. Yet John 3-5, Jesus tells us “Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Are we therefore told by the Christ that there are more conditions to achieve eternal life than simply believing in him? Is there salvation without baptism?

What do you believe, and why?

I would offer. I believe the phrase "born of the water" would point to the doctrines of God described in Deuteronomy . God's authority or name giving ears those in heaven and earth coming from above.

Not earthly man's wisdom after the devil. You could say the proper loosening binding authority by which we are born again .Needed to help distinguish from the doctrines of men as oral traditions inspired from the earth. Supporting us when trying the spirts to se if they are from above. The same water of the word husbands are to wash their wives with

Deuteronomy 32:1-3 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) “Skies, listen and I will speak. Earth, "hear the words of my mouth". My teachings will come like the rain, like a mist falling to the ground, like a gentle rain on the soft grass, like rain on the green plants. Praise God
as I speak the Lord’s name!

There it is related the authority of God the doctrines of God . Another key need to rightly divide.

Water H20 baptism has its foundation in the Old testament. This was when only Levites were apart of the gospel program.

The Son of man, Jesus came after the promised manner typified by Melchezedek as our high Priest continually without mother and father. without genealogy, or beginning of Spirit life or end thereof. .

Today as the promise of Joel all the nations men and woman alike can be ceremonially(shadow) baptized with H20 to show they have a desire to serve the gospel. As a shadow it does not confirm but represents a offered pledge like that of the Nazarene witnessed by others as a tool of encouragement as part of the kingdom of priest.

It is what the discussion was about .How could Jesus from the tribe of Judah violate the law of Levites ? And now the person Jesus from Judah is baptizing gentiles and Jews alike?

The H20 confirms nothing . other that some that seek after a sign called self edification.. Aarons Sons added a personal touch as their own fingerprint in that way. . . they were consumed by fire .The ceremonial clothing. . not a hint the smell of smoke.

it would seem to be one of two old testament ceremonial laws that will continue. The 1 Corinthians 11 hair covering along with the bread and wine represent the new covenant. a Kingdom of priests holding out their new tongue the gospel in a hope of watering it with the doctrine of God that do fall like rain .

John 3:24-26 King James Version (KJV) For John was not yet cast into prison.Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and "all men" (every nation) come to him.