Baptism of the Holy Spirit

[Angela53510]

The thing that bothers me the most about the phrase, "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is that it doesn't occur in the Bible. People always try and tell me there are incidents which mean this, but in the end, there is no such thing.

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[Magenta]

The term "baptize with the Holy Spirit" occurs several times in scripture:

Matt. 3:11, "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Luke 3:16, "John answered and said to them all, 'As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit."

Acts 1:5, "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 11:16, "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

 

[wanderer6059]

The thing that bothers me the most about the phrase, "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is that it doesn't occur in the Bible. People always try and tell me there are incidents which mean this, but in the end, there is no such thing.

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yeah but in nearly all of the baptism in acts talk of receiving the Holy Ghost and the manifestation of tongs.

 

[Socreta93]

Thats the reason I left the Pentecostal church,they believe a person didn't get saved unless they spoke In tongues.

What church do you go to? I go to a pentecostal church and my pastor always has said, speaking in tongues don't save or will get you to heaven. Accepting Jesus is what saves.

 

[Socreta93]

oh man...if you're doing that stuff, you are going to be so sorry for it.
it's entirely false and from satan.

Pentecostalism is the ancient heresy of Montanism revived
Neo-Montanism: Pentecostalism is the ancient heresy of Montanism revived

I believe in speaking in tongues but I don't believe it should be as common as it is. I've seen people just start "speaking in tongues" because it fits in somehow in their worship. That I believe it's fake.

 

[LaurenTM]

What church do you go to? I go to a pentecostal church and my pastor always has said, speaking in tongues don't save or will get you to heaven. Accepting Jesus is what saves.

those who believe you must speak in tongues to be saved are a minority

I never heard of it myself until I came to this forum and there have been maybe 1 or 2 who took that stance

speaking in tongues is not a sign a person has arrived or is more holy or whatever...abuse is evident in ALL the gifts

I was brought up in a denom that teaches against speaking in tongues...but for some reason, people in the congregation kept receiving it anyways! LOL!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

What church do you go to? I go to a pentecostal church and my pastor always has said, speaking in tongues don't save or will get you to heaven. Accepting Jesus is what saves.

I go to a non-denominational church now..

 

[wolfwint]

all believers have the holy spirit once you lay hands on them and they accept God. Speaking in tongues is just the holy spirit speaking through you. You can be speaking in English and the holy Spirit taking the lead. people gotta stop focusing on speaking all them languages. We should rather desire prophesy. Tongues is one of the things that brings lots of division in the body of Christ because people just dont wanna get what its about.

Demi, this is not correct !! I grew up as non christian, became through gods grace the opportunity to became his child. This has nothing to do with laying hands on somebody! And I grew up as christian in an non charismatic/pentecostal church. I met many born again believers which have had no connections with charismatic ore pentecostal theology. In your words we all are non christians and having not the Holy Spirit! Because nobody layed his hand on us. And also it means that the Holy Spirit can not talk to believers which are not charismatic ore pentecostal, because they are the only which practise speaking in tongues(except some sects and pagan groups) This theology with the baptising of the Holy Spirit as a second expierience came up arround 1900 in USA and was not taught before in churchhistorie, nor was it taugth in the bible.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yeah but in nearly all of the baptism in acts talk of receiving the Holy Ghost and the manifestation of tongs.

Not everyone who was baptised spoke in tongues. No where is scripture does it say that.

And the baptism in acts could be a baptism on water, or the holy spirit. Context must be used to determine which one. Baptism in water by men, and baptism by the Holy Spirit himself are two different baptisms.

 

[wolfwint]

Acts 8:14-20King James Version (KJV)

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.


Acts 9:17King James Version (KJV)

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.


Acts 19:1-7King James Version (KJV)

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

Hi wanderer 6059, as Acts 2 and 10 your quotet verses are used to support the speaking in tongues as result to receive a spirit. If you are going through acts you can find a certain reason that it is mentioned: Acts 2, as partly propecie from Joel and as beginning of the church and open witness for all, special the jews; Acts 8, as sign the gospel is also for the samarians. Acts 10 a sign for the jews that the gospel is also for the gentile and acts 19 for the diciples of John, that the Gospel is also for them.
You can connect all 4 bible references with a certain purpose. But to teach, this is now for all believers gives more in the text then it is. And it is never repead again in f.e. the letters of Paul ore Peter ore in any other part of the bible!
Maby you should think in this direction. Also it was not taught in the churchhistory, except from the beginning of the pentecostal movement around in 1900 in USA. That means all others were and are wrong in a very serious part of christian life!!! I find good the missionary and serving view which I can see in pentecostal churches, but this doctrine is not biblical!
And I really dont know what is behind this doctrine! I cant see that this is the Holy Spirit! I know this sounds some strong.
I dont want hurt, but ask for open mind.

 

[garee]

[/FONT][/COLOR]This speaks of the "gift" of the spirit. not the baptism



This speaks of the "anointing" of the HS. not the baptism of the spirit.

Christ is the anointing Holy Spirit of God .He baptizes us with His Spirit by anointing us as a work not seen .

I would offer first and foremost God is not served by human hands that he used in cerimoinal laws as that like the laying on of hands, as that seen. It was a sign as a shadow of the Holy Spirit, Christ the anointing holy Spirit baptizing .(not seen).

The cerimoinal laws as shadows pointed ahead to the suffering of Christ before hand as a way of Christ preaching the gospel

When we receive His Spirit at our new birth. It is in the fullness of it. Therefore lacking nothing .

He does not give us a part of the work of His Spirit, as a labor of His love called a work of His faith.

That faith by which we can believe Him is through His work of anointing (not seen). He does not then inform us.. prove your self by doing something outwardly .

The gifts have not ceased there never was an outward gift. No such thing as a sign gift.Prophecy is for those believe to the salvation of their new born again souls

We continue to walk by faith, the unseen eternal There is nothing we can perform outwardly as evidence that a person has the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God, the one anointing Spirit of God by which He baptizes men.

One point I would offer that it seems many gloss over is tongues is a revelation, as a interpretation of God. It is after no man as something we could do to prove something. The Holy Spirit performed work ,not Peter . He performed that so other nations might be used as prophets and priest .The refomation had come.

Tongues is "two fold" in its purpose. One to fulfill prophecy condemning one (Isa 28:11) while at the same time bringing new prophecy causing rebirth in others. It is used as outward sign are for those who rebel confirming unbelief in the Jew, who sought after signs as a work they performed outwardly. having it a a living hope it to proves they were children of God .

It is what the Jews were faulted for, seeking after sign in a hope it proved they were sons of God as born again believers.But they were led by the spirit of the fathers therefore they were putting their faith in men seen, and not God not seen .Again the reason for tongues to confirm their unbelief(no faith)

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.Isa 28:11

Note in respect to the verse above... would not hear not could not hear, they refused to believe. While at the same time bringing prophecy confirming that 3000 souls were given the faith of Christ by which they then could believe God .Having been turned toward God, hearing the voice of His work of converting there souls individually. This is God translating the two languages and gave them His interpretation. The whole work was attributed to God. It blesses the speaker as a gift from God as well as the one who heard prophecy in their own tongue.Nothing was attributed to Peter as a sign gift . Peter is neither the author of scripture(prophecy) or the one who works as the Omega ,doing the interpreting..

New prophecy has ceased . This means as prophecy God is no longer interpreting the language of one who speaks into a language the other can understand .

All new prophecy has ceased.What we had in part up till the last chapter, Revelation, we now have the whole or perfect will of God .This with no spiritual law missing by which we could know Him more intimately,

 

[Socreta93]

Thats the reason I left the Pentecostal church,they believe a person didn't get saved unless they spoke In tongues.

Not all pentecostal churches believe that. My pastor always says you can speak all the tongues you want and it won't guarantee you going to heaven. Accepting Jesus as your Lord and savior is more important.

 

[notuptome]

Not all pentecostal churches believe that. My pastor always says you can speak all the tongues you want and it won't guarantee you going to heaven. Accepting Jesus as your Lord and savior is more important.

Would that not require the Holy Spirit to be in a person that is not saved? If the Holy Spirit is the source of tongues then He must be present for the tongues to be genuine.

Unless you are saying that tongues can be faked by the speaker and no one is able to tell the difference. That of course will make many Pentecostals and charismatics very unhappy.

I should think that every believer would say that accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior is not just more important but absolutely essential for salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[wanderer6059]

Not everyone who was baptised spoke in tongues. No where is scripture does it say that.

And the baptism in acts could be a baptism on water, or the holy spirit. Context must be used to determine which one. Baptism in water by men, and baptism by the Holy Spirit himself are two different baptisms.

agreed, i think what we call baptism of the Holy Ghost should not be called it. its two different experiences like you say, but every time someone, received the HG it was followed by tongs. the only exception i know of is john 20:22 but that was before Pentecost.

 

[wanderer6059]

Hi wanderer 6059, as Acts 2 and 10 your quotet verses are used to support the speaking in tongues as result to receive a spirit. If you are going through acts you can find a certain reason that it is mentioned: Acts 2, as partly propecie from Joel and as beginning of the church and open witness for all, special the jews; Acts 8, as sign the gospel is also for the samarians. Acts 10 a sign for the jews that the gospel is also for the gentile and acts 19 for the diciples of John, that the Gospel is also for them.
You can connect all 4 bible references with a certain purpose. But to teach, this is now for all believers gives more in the text then it is. And it is never repead again in f.e. the letters of Paul ore Peter ore in any other part of the bible!
Maby you should think in this direction. Also it was not taught in the churchhistory, except from the beginning of the pentecostal movement around in 1900 in USA. That means all others were and are wrong in a very serious part of christian life!!! I find good the missionary and serving view which I can see in pentecostal churches, but this doctrine is not biblical!
And I really dont know what is behind this doctrine! I cant see that this is the Holy Spirit! I know this sounds some strong.
I dont want hurt, but ask for open mind.

i understand brother, but i have never seen evidence of its secession, what you are talking about is the start of each one.



and really there are only two main starting points of it, acts two and 8 are nit together because the Samaritans received
it buy the Hebrew heritage, while in acts 10 it was the opening of the gentile church. there starting points.

and for that consideration i also ask what would be the point in 1 cor 14 if toungs were not meant to still be active today

[h=1]1 Corinthians 14King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.[/FONT]
this is clearly to instruct on the usage of tongues

 

[notuptome]

agreed, i think what we call baptism of the Holy Ghost should not be called it. its two different experiences like you say, but every time someone, received the HG it was followed by tongs. the only exception i know of is john 20:22 but that was before Pentecost.

The presence of tongues in Acts is a sign to the Jews present that the same Holy Spirit which they witnessed at Pentecost was in the Gentile converts.

Phillip and the eunuch in Acts is an example of no tongues present because they we out in the desert and all alone.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[wanderer6059]

The presence of tongues in Acts is a sign to the Jews present that the same Holy Spirit which they witnessed at Pentecost was in the Gentile converts.

Phillip and the eunuch in Acts is an example of no tongues present because they we out in the desert and all alone.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

again i agree, i think they are two separate things... one receiving the HG the other is baptism.

 

[Socreta93]

Would that not require the Holy Spirit to be in a person that is not saved? If the Holy Spirit is the source of tongues then He must be present for the tongues to be genuine.

Unless you are saying that tongues can be faked by the speaker and no one is able to tell the difference. That of course will make many Pentecostals and charismatics very unhappy.

I should think that every believer would say that accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior is not just more important but absolutely essential for salvation.

receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit are two different things.

 

[notuptome]

receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit are two different things.

*groan* One receives the Holy Spirit by what is commonly referred to as Holy Spirit baptism. There is but one Holy Spirit baptism received that moment we trust Christ to save us from our sin.

There are many fillings of the Holy Spirit subsequent to our Holy Spirit baptism. We are filled with the Holy Spirit to receive boldness to proclaim the gospel message to a lost and dying world. We are baptized in the Holy Spirit to have our sins forgiven and be made alive unto eternal life in Christ.

Born again by Holy Spirit baptism and filled to serve Christ daily.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[wanderer6059]

*groan* One receives the Holy Spirit by what is commonly referred to as Holy Spirit baptism. There is but one Holy Spirit baptism received that moment we trust Christ to save us from our sin.

There are many fillings of the Holy Spirit subsequent to our Holy Spirit baptism. We are filled with the Holy Spirit to receive boldness to proclaim the gospel message to a lost and dying world. We are baptized in the Holy Spirit to have our sins forgiven and be made alive unto eternal life in Christ.

Born again by Holy Spirit baptism and filled to serve Christ daily.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

i think theres a misunderstanding cause i agree with everything you say... lol