Basic facts on faith.

[Watchman22]

"Christ is formed in our hearts by faith."

So it's important to know exactly what faith is and how it's applied to have Christ formed in our hearts.

There was some trouble translating faith, pistis, into the English language. And also the corresponding verb to pistis, pisteuo. The English language doesn't have a corresponding verb to the noun faith like the Greek does. So to correctly translate the word pisteuo which describes how we are to apply faith, it takes some extra work.

The English language tends to limit faith to the mind, to belief, to the emotions, to confidence or trust. And it leaves the " will" , to another word which is obedience. The English language thus sets free faith from work. The Greek doesn't allow that. You don't have " pistis" , ( faith) until you added the " will" and hung the body in continuing action on what the mind believed and what the heart had confidence in. It's an expression of the whole man.

We can't enter into Gods presence without faith, without a continually surrendered life.

 

[Roger316]

Im attempting to find a place of agreement. Then we can use what we agree on to look at the right path.

If the place of agreement is the Vines definition of pisteuo, "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender,
"We can move on. If you understand the faith response is believing in what Christ said and did, we won't be able to move forward.

Gods word comes into the picture, later after He, His Spirit, and His word are ours to claim. At the start, those things are not ours yet.

My point is this. Concepts like personal surrender are not included in the Greek word's definition. The idea of personal surrender comes from places where Jesus talks about following him to the cross.

 

[PennEd]

ability to faith

I don’t know what that means.

You either have faith to believe something or you don’t. The faith IS the “ability”.

When the Gospel is preached, you have people that hear it and believe. Because they have been gifted the faith to do so. You have others that hear and don’t believe, because they don’t have faith.

Peter and Judas are good examples of this. When Jesus asks Peter who He was, and Peter responded
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Judas on the other hand NEVER believed Jesus was Lord and the Son of God. You cannot find where he called Him that in Scripture.

I have personally spoken to some of them. And they honestly say “ I don’t have the faith to believe that”. 2 cousins amongst them, said that verbatim.

The world would look at them as pretty good guys, yet they don’t believe. Is it possible they have been gifted the faith, and the Holy Spirit will work on drawing that faith out in the future? Sure. Certainly not giving up on them, but ultimately, if they fail to believe, it’s because they have no faith.

If everyone had faith, everyone would believe.

 

[Watchman22]

My point is this. Concepts like personal surrender are not included in the Greek word's definition. The idea of personal surrender comes from places where Jesus talks about following him to the cross.

Roger, your not looking at the Vines definition i posted word for word.

"A Personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender " is the exact definition of pisteuo in the Greek.

Post 3

 

[Roger316]

Im attempting to find a place of agreement. Then we can use what we agree on to look at the right path.

If the place of agreement is the Vines definition of pisteuo, "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender,
"We can move on. If you understand the faith response is believing in what Christ said and did, we won't be able to move forward.

Gods word comes into the picture, later after He, His Spirit, and His word are ours to claim. At the start, those things are not ours yet.

FYI I use the following references most of the time.

The LSJ and the Middle Liddell are two standard lexicons for ancient Greek, and giving their full names will help you understand exactly where my definitions come from.

• Liddell–Scott–Jones Greek–English Lexicon — commonly abbreviated LSJ. This is the largest and most authoritative classical Greek lexicon, originally compiled by Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, and later revised by Henry Stuart Jones. It covers Greek from Homer through the early Christian era and is the standard reference for classical scholarship.
• Liddell–Scott Intermediate Greek–English Lexicon — often called the Middle Liddell. This is the intermediate version of the lexicon, also produced by Liddell and Scott, designed for students who need more detail than a beginner’s dictionary but not the full scholarly depth of the LSJ. It contains the same core definitions but in a more concise format.

These two works are the backbone of classical Greek lexical study.

 

[Watchman22]

I don’t know what that means.

You either have faith to believe something or you don’t. The faith IS the “ability”.

When the Gospel is preached, you have people that hear it and believe. Because they have been gifted the faith to do so. You have others that hear and don’t believe, because they don’t have faith.

Peter and Judas are good examples of this. When Jesus asks Peter who He was, and Peter responded
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Judas on the other hand NEVER believed Jesus was Lord and the Son of God. You cannot find where he called Him that in Scripture.

I have personally spoken to some of them. And they honestly say “ I don’t have the faith to believe that”. 2 cousins amongst them, said that verbatim.

The world would look at them as pretty good guys, yet they don’t believe. Is it possible they have been gifted the faith, and the Holy Spirit will work on drawing that faith out in the future? Sure. Certainly not giving up on them, but ultimately, if they fail to believe, it’s because they have no faith.

If everyone had faith, everyone would believe.

The words believe, believing, and believing are mistranslations.

I explain the why and how in a thread call rediscovering pisteuo. I'll bump it to the front page for you.

 

[Roger316]

Roger, your not looking at the Vines definition i posted word for word.

"A Personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender " is the exact definition of pisteuo in the Greek.

Post 3

Vine’s is not a dictionary; it is a word‑study commentary.

W. E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words looks like a dictionary because it is arranged alphabetically and gives definitions, but technically it is a commentary on key Greek terms, not a lexicon. A lexicon (like LSJ or Middle Liddell) gives you raw lexical data: root meanings, historical usage, grammatical forms, and citations from Greek literature. Vine’s does something different. It gives interpretive summaries of how certain Greek words function in the New Testament, often with theological explanation. That makes it extremely useful for pastors and teachers, but it is not a primary source for lexical meaning. It is a secondary, interpretive tool—a commentary arranged like a dictionary.

Commentaries are immensely helpful, but they are not authoritative sources of fact; they are interpretive works, and interpretation can be mistaken. A commentary represents a scholar’s attempt to explain a passage—shaped by that scholar’s assumptions, training, theological commitments, and sometimes even blind spots. Two commentaries on the same verse can disagree sharply, which proves that they are offering opinions, not delivering established lexical or grammatical facts. Lexicons like LSJ or Middle Liddell give you data; commentaries give you interpretation. That’s why commentaries can be wrong—they are attempts to persuade, not to prove. They help you think, but they cannot replace careful study of the text itself.

 

[Watchman22]

Vine’s is not a dictionary; it is a word‑study commentary.

W. E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words looks like a dictionary because it is arranged alphabetically and gives definitions, but technically it is a commentary on key Greek terms, not a lexicon. A lexicon (like LSJ or Middle Liddell) gives you raw lexical data: root meanings, historical usage, grammatical forms, and citations from Greek literature. Vine’s does something different. It gives interpretive summaries of how certain Greek words function in the New Testament, often with theological explanation. That makes it extremely useful for pastors and teachers, but it is not a primary source for lexical meaning. It is a secondary, interpretive tool—a commentary arranged like a dictionary.

Commentaries are immensely helpful, but they are not authoritative sources of fact; they are interpretive works, and interpretation can be mistaken. A commentary represents a scholar’s attempt to explain a passage—shaped by that scholar’s assumptions, training, theological commitments, and sometimes even blind spots. Two commentaries on the same verse can disagree sharply, which proves that they are offering opinions, not delivering established lexical or grammatical facts. Lexicons like LSJ or Middle Liddell give you data; commentaries give you interpretation. That’s why commentaries can be wrong—they are attempts to persuade, not to prove. They help you think, but they cannot replace careful study of the text itself.

Thats funny, I have the book, and inside the cover it states,"Vines expository dictionary of NT words.

You've answered my question.

 

[Watchman22]

Vine’s is not a dictionary; it is a word‑study commentary.

W. E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words looks like a dictionary because it is arranged alphabetically and gives definitions, but technically it is a commentary on key Greek terms, not a lexicon. A lexicon (like LSJ or Middle Liddell) gives you raw lexical data: root meanings, historical usage, grammatical forms, and citations from Greek literature. Vine’s does something different. It gives interpretive summaries of how certain Greek words function in the New Testament, often with theological explanation. That makes it extremely useful for pastors and teachers, but it is not a primary source for lexical meaning. It is a secondary, interpretive tool—a commentary arranged like a dictionary.

Commentaries are immensely helpful, but they are not authoritative sources of fact; they are interpretive works, and interpretation can be mistaken. A commentary represents a scholar’s attempt to explain a passage—shaped by that scholar’s assumptions, training, theological commitments, and sometimes even blind spots. Two commentaries on the same verse can disagree sharply, which proves that they are offering opinions, not delivering established lexical or grammatical facts. Lexicons like LSJ or Middle Liddell give you data; commentaries give you interpretation. That’s why commentaries can be wrong—they are attempts to persuade, not to prove. They help you think, but they cannot replace careful study of the text itself.

Post 3 covers the Strongs definition also.

It uses the words pisteuo is not just to believe, reliance upon, commit unto, be committed unto. And action word, a verb.

 

[Roger316]

Post 3 covers the Strongs definition also.

It uses the words pisteuo is not just to believe, reliance upon, commit unto, be committed unto. And action word, a verb.

The following is Strong's definition

Strong’s definition of πιστεύω (G4100) is: “to have faith, to believe, to trust; by implication, to entrust.”
I see nothing in there about personal surrender. But your original post was a lament that the English translators didn't offer the correct translation. I think we can see that your original thought might need some adjustment.

Matthew 14:30–31 is the perfect illustration.

Peter had already surrendered—he stepped out of the boat.What failed was his confidence in Jesus’ sustaining power.

Jesus’ rebuke: “O you of little faith…” This is not about insufficient surrender; it’s about insufficient trust.

Peter’s problem was:

• not rebellion
• not refusal
• not lack of yieldedness
• but wavering confidence in the face of danger

He trusted enough to step out, but not enough to keep walking.

 

[Delvianna]

Devianna, an observation.

You seem to be comfortable with the word i call a mistranslation, believe. But, instead of saying any work or effort associated with believing is "works salvation " like most others standing on believing. You recognize there is more to believing than just mental assent. Hence, ,when you say faith is belief and trust, i think it may be in alignment with how I understand faith as one, a personal surrender to Him, and two a life inspired by such surrender.

Faith and faithing takes decisions, choices, work and effort. Not any kind of work that can be added to Christs finished work on Calvary, grace. Faith takes 90 % courage, 5% endurance, and 5 % everything else.

Am I reading you right?

I agree. Like I said to you earlier, I agree with your statement, I just don't agree to attribute everything you've said into the definition of a word.

Works salvation is = acts of righteousness gets you to heaven. It negates Christ. But without forgiveness, no one gets to heaven because no one was perfect from the beginning apart from Christ.

But yes, surrendering your life to Christ includes decisions, choices and effort into actually following what He said to do. Not that the things He told us to do will get us to heaven (works based) but the things we do prove our surrender.

It's like, if you tell your spouse you love them. But if you don't show it, can you really call it love? Love is backed up by actions. You take care of them when they're sick, you comfort them when they need to be comforted, you protect them when they need protection. Those "works" prove love. Just as works proves faith (Book of James).

 

[Watchman22]

The following is Strong's definition

Strong’s definition of πιστεύω (G4100) is: “to have faith, to believe, to trust; by implication, to entrust.”
I see nothing in there about personal surrender. But your original post was a lament that the English translators didn't offer the correct translation. I think we can see that your original thought might need some adjustment.

Matthew 14:30–31 is the perfect illustration.

Peter had already surrendered—he stepped out of the boat.What failed was his confidence in Jesus’ sustaining power.

Jesus’ rebuke: “O you of little faith…” This is not about insufficient surrender; it’s about insufficient trust.

Peter’s problem was:

• not rebellion
• not refusal
• not lack of yieldedness
• but wavering confidence in the face of danger

He trusted enough to step out, but not enough to keep walking.

Im always learand adjusting.
Bye

 

[Watchman22]

I agree. Like I said to you earlier, I agree with your statement, I just don't agree to attribute everything you've said into the definition of a word.

Works salvation is = acts of righteousness gets you to heaven. It negates Christ. But without forgiveness, no one gets to heaven because no one was perfect from the beginning apart from Christ.

But yes, surrendering your life to Christ includes decisions, choices and effort into actually following what He said to do. Not that the things He told us to do will get us to heaven (works based) but the things we do prove our surrender.

It's like, if you tell your spouse you love them. But if you don't show it, can you really call it love? Love is backed up by actions. You take care of them when they're sick, you comfort them when they need to be comforted, you protect them when they need protection. Those "works" prove love. Just as works proves faith (Book of James).

Love it delvianna.

 

[Delvianna]

The problem is that in greek, Faith (Pistos) is an adjective. There's no greek verb for faith. It's all nouns or adjectives. But in the adjective sense, it gives the impression that it's someone who has already done the actions and continues doing them.

• trusty, faithful
  
  1. of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties
  2. one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust
  3. that can be relied on
• easily persuaded
  
  1. believing, confiding, trusting
  2. in the NT one who trusts in God's promises
     
     1. one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead
     2. one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

And with those actions, surrender can be implied. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Watchman22]

The problem is that in greek, Faith (Pistos) is an adjective. There's no greek verb for faith. It's all nouns or adjectives. But in the adjective sense, it gives the impression that it's someone who has already done the actions and continues doing them.

• trusty, faithful
  1. of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties
  2. one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust
  3. that can be relied on
• easily persuaded
  1. believing, confiding, trusting
  2. in the NT one who trusts in God's promises
     1. one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead
     2. one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

And with those actions, surrender can be implied. Just my deviants.

Pisteuo is the corresponding verb to the noun pistis.
You didn't read rediscovering pisteuo thread.

 

[Delvianna]

Pisteuo is the corresponding verb to the noun pistis.
You didn't read rediscovering pisteuo thread.

I did, but I didn't see Pisteuo in the list when I looked it up.

G571	ἄπιστος	apistos	adjective	that believe not, unbelieving, faithless, unbeliever, infidel, thing incredible, which believe not
G1680	ἐλπίς	elpis	noun	hope, faith
G3640	ὀλιγόπιστος	oligopistos	noun	of little faith
G4102	πίστις	pistis	noun	faith, assurance, believe, belief, them that believe, fidelity
G4103	πιστός	pistos	adjective	faithful, believe, believing, true, faithfully, believer, sure not tr
G6066	ὀλιγοπιστία	oligopistia	noun	littleness of faith

Don't know why it's not listed... so that's my fault.

 

[Watchman22]

I did, but I didn't see Pisteuo in the list when I looked it up.

G571	ἄπιστος	apistos	adjective	that believe not, unbelieving, faithless, unbeliever, infidel, thing incredible, which believe not
G1680	ἐλπίς	elpis	noun	hope, faith
G3640	ὀλιγόπιστος	oligopistos	noun	of little faith
G4102	πίστις	pistis	noun	faith, assurance, believe, belief, them that believe, fidelity
G4103	πιστός	pistos	adjective	faithful, believe, believing, true, faithfully, believer, sure not tr
G6066	ὀλιγοπιστία	oligopistia	noun	littleness of faith

Don't know why it's not listed... so that's my fault.

No worries.
Post 3 gives the most extensive definition of pisteuo.

 

[Bible_Locket]

This is one of the “ballgame “ verses in Scripture.

Meaning, if you get this one wrong, it’s going to completely mess up your doctrine and belief system.

BOTH the grace AND the faith are gifts from God. That’s precisely what the text says.

The question has been asked umpteen different ways and times over the years, and no one has been able to adequately answer.

If faith isn’t a gift from God, where does it come from?

Yes, we know faith comes by hearing, but the verse actually solidifies that the faith comes from God.

The “comes by” means drawn out from the inside . So it in effect means, it is ACTIVATED by the hearing of the Word.

Or. As the King James says in Ephesians, we are “quickened” by Him upon the hearing of the Word.

I think Paul's Corinthians letter applies there. The natural man,mind,cannot understand the things of God. Those are spiritually discerned because the Holy Spirit enters into us first.

So,as you suggest, hearing the words of God comes from our now being able to understand. Because the Spirit imbues us with faith by his presence and as such,we can understand spiritual things because his Spirit links with us.

 

[pinebeach]

The words believe, believing, and believing are mistranslations.

I explain the why and how in a thread call rediscovering pisteuo. I'll bump it to the front page for you.

Oh right....that whole pisteo thread.

 

[Watchman22]

I did, but I didn't see Pisteuo in the list when I looked it up.

G571	ἄπιστος	apistos	adjective	that believe not, unbelieving, faithless, unbeliever, infidel, thing incredible, which believe not
G1680	ἐλπίς	elpis	noun	hope, faith
G3640	ὀλιγόπιστος	oligopistos	noun	of little faith
G4102	πίστις	pistis	noun	faith, assurance, believe, belief, them that believe, fidelity
G4103	πιστός	pistos	adjective	faithful, believe, believing, true, faithfully, believer, sure not tr
G6066	ὀλιγοπιστία	oligopistia	noun	littleness of faith

Don't know why it's not listed... so that's my fault.

Delvianna,
Since we seem to have an agreement on how Faith is applied, would you like to talk about the salvation process with our agreed understanding of faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo?

I had some appointments today and couldn't give the discussion my full attention. But tomorrow looks better.