When Martin Luther was Catholic he tried to confess absolutely every sin on the grounds that any sin left unconfessed kept him from being pure and guiltless before God. The result was that he felt he had to confess every passing thought. Sometimes he would leave, go home and immediately return for more confession because of something that had occurred to him on the way home. His Confessor called this "scrupulosity" While I believe 1 John 2:7-9 I also acknowledge the presence of the Holy Spirit who accompanies us and helps us with our weaknesses. I do not need to continually be engaged in introspection. I trust Him to convict me whatever I need to repent of. I have generally found confession is easy just like the yoke of Christ.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
- Thread starter wattie
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Christ clearly states we must do the Father''s will -- as HE DID.
there is no reward from doing what we are commanded to do.
The 10 are "Commandments" which means we are commanded to do them.
Yes, we must believe Christ is GOD, Christ is our Passover, but we must believe HIM,
believe what HE tells us we must do.
All 10 of the Commandments carry the penalty of death and # 4 is the Sabbath.
That is how important that day is to GOD the Father and Jesus Christ who rested on that day and made it HOLY.
The scripture in the comment you responded to says it clearly
but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Yes that includes number 4.
I care not what men say --- I have heard what they say for 86 years what a waste of time.
I care not of the position a man may have even in the Body, IF to
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
the word Law is Torah # 8451, the testimony is the Commandments
yes I have heard the Sabbath is only for Jews and Hebrews. not according to Jesus Christ'
The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
A. The Third Heaven is where God's throne is. It is the dimension where God is fully manifest in His glory surrounded by angels who constantly worship Him. This is what Isaiah saw in Isaiah 6. Typologically the throne is represented by the ark which was the Holy of Holies which was the third and innermost "room" of the Temple. All around the ark on the curtains of the Tabernacle were images of the Seraphim which shows the heavenly worship that is constantly going on.
B. Paul wrote that in some spiritual way believers are also connected to, and even participate in that realm:
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.…(Ephesians 2:6-7)
20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.…
(Philippians 3:20)
This is an allusion to the time when the Messianic Kingdom will come and extend its rule over the earth.
A. The Covenant of the Law was SUPERSEDED and made OBSOLETE and replaced by the the New Covenant which was purshased by the blood of the Lamb and made available to all who surrender their lives to Him.
As the author of Hebrews said:
13 By speaking of a NEW covenant, He has made the first one OBSOLETE; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
(Hebrews 8:13)
The word obsolete is palaioó (παλαιόω): to make old, to become obsolete, to grow old.
Thayer adds this: to declare a thing to be old and so about to be abrogated
B. The event that decisively ended the prior covenant was the the destruction of the Temple. Without a a holy place in which to make the offerings and priesthood to offer them the commands of that covenant could no longer be followed. It is true that God ORIGINALLY gave Shabbat to benefit man. He did not command all men to rest on Shabbat until Moses made it a command in Exodus and that command was made to the sons of Israel.
Jesus as the Messiah gave us His own set of commands that were deeper, addressing not only behavior but the thoughts and intents of the heart. Many modern Rabbinical Jews are recognizing that and insisting, for instance, that while the Law forbids the act of adultery it does not forbid imagining it or even viewing it in pornographic form.
Then why did Christ teach the Torah and tell us to follow Him?
Why did HE say to live by every word of the Torah i.e the WORD of GOD!
Christ was sinless, how was that adjudicated ? The Torah
So what is sinlessness, is to be cast aside??
The law in the New Covenant is the Torah raised to the Spirit level
Here in Matthew Christ tells His disciples to obey the TORAH
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
What Law did the Pharisees rule the Jews by --- the Torah and Christ said to observe and do
there is a mountain more of proof, it has changed no one's mind, only The Father opens minds to the Truth.
(1) The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Here you attempt to smuggle Shabbat law into Genesis long before any specific command was given, long before any covenant with Israel had been made, long before Moses gave the Laws and practices which were attached to the Covenant of the Law. Long before the Mosaic Covenant, all of mankind was under the provisions of The Noahic Covenant which was established between God and Noah after the flood. At that time, there was no separate distinct race called the Jews.
Look at the context of the verse you cited.
24 And the Pharisees were saying to him, “Look, why are they Jesus (Jewish) disciples] are doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?
”25 And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him:26 how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?”
(Mark 2:24-26)
(2) In this passage, Jesus was having a debate with the Pharisees (a Jewish sect) about the whether the actions of Jesus (Jewish) disciples were in keeping with the Law of Moses. This would have had no relevance to anyone not already a part of the Mosaic covenant.
(3) The Jewish people themselves were not obligated to practice Shabbat until Moses made it part of the covenant of the Law at Sinai;
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 He did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with all of us who are alive here today. (Deuteronomy 5:2)
Here God says that He did not make this particular covenant with any of their ancestors - not with Adam, Abel, Enoch, Noah or Abraham
He made it specifically with the generation of Israel that had been delivered from slavery to Egypt and to their descendants.
(4) God even said WHY He had given them a day of rest;
15 Remember that you were SLAVES in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God BROUGHT YOU OUT of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. THAT IS WHY the LORD your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
(Deuteronomy 5:15)
Before that Israel had labored ceaselessly without rest under the lash of Pharaoh for 400 years. That was the reason God Himself said He had given them Shabbat.
Acts 16:30-31........It is a verse of a specific unbeliever asking a believer, "What must I do to be saved?"
Our answer to our friends,wives/husbands, strangers and ANYONE who asks us should be the EXACT same.......Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. That goes for you, and ANYONE you know.
It's sad @wattie, a very small handful of believers know this and follow this simple example today.
the KJV is not the same as what you posted for Deuteronomy 5: 15therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Jesus Christ made every thing that has been made on earth and in the 3rd heaven,
That includes the 7th Day Sabbath. Christ rested on that day.
None of the other 6 days has He made HOLY.
The 10 Commands: we are commanded to keep these 10 commands given us by our maker for our good.
Christ has set the penalty of death for each of the 10 that are transgressed
That includes number 4, the Sabbath
That should make a person realize just how important the Sabbath is to Jesus Christ.
I am well aware the Sabbath is of zero importance to 99.999% of the world
at the Lake of Fire watching the angels cast in sinners that refuse to repent,, understand breaking the Sabbath is equal to murder, rape, lying etc. in the eyes of Jesus Christ.
And He has said break one you have broken them all.
I just put a paper on this site, asking the question if the Torah was abolished how would Christ legally carry out the time of the end?
what legal right would Christ have to put billions of humans to death if the Torah was abolished.
The Torah including the Sabbath is for ever. the Sabbath will become spiritual, as time will also end.
Yes, scripture is very clear it is by believing in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that by believing in Him, you have forgiveness of sin, everlasting life.
I used to be fine with 'Turning from sin and making Jesus Lord of your life'..then someone said to me.. 'how does a lost person, dead in sin, turn from sin, before or as part of salvation?
Then I realized that was impossible. And the Acts scripture that you showed.. 'sirs what must I do to be saved?' And the answer .. 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ '... nailed it. Along with all thru the book of John of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Sometimes people will say turning from sin means knowing you are a sinner and believing on Jesus...then it's no issue.
But if it is a behavioral thing of trying to clean your act up before salvation.. that's trying to put perfume on a corpse.
A. So, in addition to your belief that every believer in Jesus Christ, regardless of their racial-ethic origin, must keep ALL the provisions of the Covenant God made with Moses and the JEWISH people at Sinai.
B. This belief, in turn, rests on another presupposition - that a particular English translation of the Bible written in the archaic Elizabethan vernacular that was spoken in 1611 is the final word on the meaning of the Hebrew text.
C. Let us first consult the Bible you consider to be the ultimate perfectly accurate translation from Hebrew into English to see if it really says what you think it is saying:
King James Bible
And remember that thou wast a servant [slave] in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: THEREFORE the LORD thy God commanded thee to KEEP THE SABBATH
(Deuteronomy 5:15)
The word THEREFORE shows the connection between Israel's slavery and God's command to keep Shabbat
As slaves of Pharaoh they had to work ceaselessly without taking any day off. Being slaves they had no "rights" in the modern sense.
From this we can see that giving them Shabbat was an act of kindness and mercy although they did not always see it that way.
D. Take note that most other English translations do not differ from the KJV so your claim that I was using some inaccurate translation of the Bible is shown to be demonstrably false
New International Version
Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
English Standard Version
You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Berean Standard Bible
Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the LORD your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Berean Literal Bible
And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and YHWH your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm. Upon thus [this basis] YHWH your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
E. Next you show just how far you have wandered from the gospel of Messiah Jesus when you make Shabbat keeping to be a necessary condition for inheriting eternal life in the world to come. You stated this clearly when you imagined:
....being at the Lake of Fire watching the angels cast in sinners that refuse to repent, understand breaking the Sabbath is equal to murder, rape, lying etc. in the eyes of Jesus Christ. And He has said break one you have broken them all.
Where did Jesus ever make keeping Shabbat equaivalent to murder, adultery, fornication, idolatry and all the other moral sins? This is the mark of an obsession not conviction.
G. If not keeping Shabbat can send people to hell do you not think the Apostles would have continually warned their followers to keep Shabbat - especially those who were Gentiles? Of course they would have, but we see absolutely no evidence of this kind of warning in their writings.
F. Most of all, when did Jesus or any of His Apostles ever say that to be saved we must REPENT of our sins, put our TRUST utterly in HIM AND that, in addition, we must commit to KEEPING SHABBAT law? Where did anyone in the NT teach this?
G. When I was attending a Messianic Congregation we studied the ancient festivals and the meaning of those types. We also did not work on Shabbat but instead assembled for worship and to listen to teaching. We never taught that Gentiles had to become preselytes before they could be joined with Christ in the New Covenant. We also did not check that members had been circumcised nor if they were keeping kosher. These requirements vanished when the prior Covenant was replaced by a superior one which was bought for us by the blood of the Lamb of God.
A. So, you hold that, every believer in Jesus Christ, regardless of their racial-ethic origin, must keep ALL the requirements of the Covenant God made with Moses and the JEWISH people at Sinai.
B. This belief, in turn, rests on another presupposition - that a particular English translation of the Bible written in the archaic Elizabethan vernacular that was spoken in 1611 is the final word on the meaning of the Hebrew text.
C. Let us first consult the KJV Bible which you consider to be the ultimate perfectly accurate translation from Hebrew into English to see if it really says what you think it is saying:
King James Bible
And remember that thou wast a servant [slave] in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: THEREFORE the LORD thy God commanded thee to KEEP THE SABBATH
(Deuteronomy 5:15)
The word THEREFORE shows the connection between Israel's slavery and God's command to keep Shabbat
As slaves of Pharaoh they had to work ceaselessly without taking any day off. Being slaves they had no "rights" in the modern sense.
From this, we can see that giving them Shabbat was an act of kindness and mercy although they did not always see it that way.
D. Take note that most English translations do not differ from the KJV about Deuteronomy 5:15 so your claim that I was using some inaccurate translation of the Bible is revealed to be demonstrably false
New International Version
Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
English Standard Version
You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Berean Standard Bible
Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the LORD your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Berean Literal Bible
And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and YHWH your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm. Upon thus [on this basis] YHWH your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
E. Next you show just how far you have deviated from the gospel of Messiah Jesus when you make Shabbat keeping to be a necessary condition for inheriting eternal life in the world to come. Jesus taught a lot about how to enter into eternal life. He said He WAS the LIFE of the Father and the only WAY of entering into it.
By contrast you take the position that to become joined with Christ in the New Covenant we must in addition to REPENTANCE and FAITH make a lifelong committment to KEEP SHABBAT. You stated this clearly when you imagined the following senario:
....being at the Lake of Fire watching the angels cast in sinners that refuse to repent, understand breaking the Sabbath is equal to murder, rape, lying etc. in the eyes of Jesus Christ. And He has said break one you have broken them all.
Where did Jesus ever make keeping Shabbat equivalent to murder, adultery, fornication, idolatry and all the other moral sins? This is the mark of an obsession not conviction. You tried to find evidence in the Book of James who said if we want to keep the Law we cannot pick and choose which commands to follow. We are instead obliged to keep all of them.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
The Law was a scale whose standard was perfection. However, God is not only truth and justice. There is also the other aspect of His nature which is boundless mercy and love. When Jacob says MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGEMENT He was saying that Love more fully expresses who God is therefore we must pursue that above all.
G. Also, if not keeping Shabbat sends people to hell do you not think Jesus and the Apostles would have continually warned their followers to keep Shabbat - especially those who were Gentiles? Of course they would have, but we see absolutely no evidence of this kind of warning in their writings.
F. Most importantly, when did Jesus or any of His Apostles ever say that to be saved we must REPENT of our sins, put our TRUST utterly in HIM AND that, in addition, we must commit to KEEPING SHABBAT law? Where did anyone in the NT teach this?
G. When I was attending a Messianic Congregation we studied the ancient festivals and the meaning of those types. We also did not work on Shabbat but instead assembled to worship and to listen to teaching. We never taught that Gentiles had to become preselytes before they could be joined with Christ in the New Covenant. We also did not check that members had been circumcised or if they were keeping kosher. These requirements vanished when the prior Covenant was replaced by a SUPERIOR ONE which was bought for us by the blood of the Lamb of God.
Paul warned us about the Judaeizers when he wrote: …2 Watch out for those dogs, those workers of evil, those mutilators of the flesh! 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh (Philippians 3:3)
He must have forgotten to mention keeping Shabbat.
the penalty for murder is death --Correct? and all other Commandments as well
if observing the Sabbath, #4, was not subject to the penalty of death, then why Did Jesus Christ put this man to death?
32And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
On two tables of stone, Jesus Christ wrote the 10 Commandments, the 10 are commanded By Christ to be observed by the Hebrews but when Christ return the whole earth will keep them and # 4 has never been removed.
these commands of Christ, are so HOLY, so important to the Father, Christ instructed Moses to put them in the ark under the Mercy Seat, the Throne of God the Father.
I can not find a scripture stating the two tables of stone have ever been removed.
until Christ returns as KING of Kings, the Sabbath will only be Holy time to the few.
A. When God makes a blood covenant with an individual or a group the covenant itself is what binds them together. Sharing blood means sharing life since, typologically, "the life is in the blood" Covenants illustrate this binding of one life to another. When Messiah came He did not merely give His disciples a book of rules to follow. entered into covenant union with them. By partaking of His life blood we were joined to Him in covenant. Marriage is also said to be a covenant and, I hope you do not see marriage as as merely a contract or a merely an contractual agreement to follow a rule book. It is because one person loves another that they agree to enter into a covenant union. Their mutual love motivates them to stay together.
B. This is beautifully illustrated in the covenant supper instituted by Jesus:
…19 And He took the bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body, given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20 In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the New Covenant IN MY BLOOD, which is POURED OUT FOR YOU. (Luke 22:19-20)
Paul put it this way: In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “THIS CUP IS THE NEW COVENANT IN MY BLOOD; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
C. The covenant they entered into with God through Jesus was vastly different from the covenant of Moses. The most important difference was that the New Covenant was based on Jesus sacrifice as the Lamb of God. We cannot earn this through our perfect obedience. We can only repent, believe and receive the life as a gift through FAITH in Him. Messiah Jesus said that He Himself was the only way to God, the complete TRUTH about the Father and the sole possessor of the Father's eternal LIFE. No one can come to the Father but BY HIM.
D. Evidently you feel confident enough in your own ability to so obey the Law that you can earn God's favor by your own effort. Had that been possible then the Father would not have needed to send His beloved son to die for us.
E. Despite all God has done to offer you salvation and eternal life free of charge you insist on EARNING THE RIGHT to enter the Holy of Holies through the merit of your actions. Even the High Priest, after all the rituals of cleansing he went through, did not dare approach the throne without the basin of blood. Yet you would damn even those who have repent believe and come to Him if they do not consistently keep Shabbat
Oh for the good old days, when all you needed to refute someone's arguments was a bag of rocks and the threat of death!
A) In this post you claim that the 10 commandments (which were a summary of the more extensive Mosaic moral code) are UNIVERSAL and MANDATORY for all races people's and tribes. Now when I read what was said by Moses himself it seems that his commands were aimed at the Jewish people after they were delivered from Egypt when they were a theocracy.
B) You argue that since God never REMOVED the law of Shabbat it still stands. I am not sure why you think God has to remove a command from the original tablets to change it for us. It seems to me that, replacing the entire Mosaic Covenant with the New Covenant automatically makes the former covenant OBSOLETE; at least, is how the author of Hebrews saw it:
13In speaking of a NEW covenant, he makes the FIRSE one OBSOLETE. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away (Hebrews 8:13)
After the temple was destroyed, that centralized worship system, along with the rites and ceremonies the sacrifices, all mediated by Priesthood of Aaron passed away and very quickly vanished. Of course, one Messiah, who was the perfect sacrifice as well as the supreme Mediator after the order of Melchisadek was the sole proprietor of the New Covenant in which real righteousness could be imparted
C) My next observation is the simple fact that neither Paul nor the other Apostles commanded their followers to stop keeping Shabbat. Everyone had the freedom to continue worshipping on Shabbat (which many of them did). Others, decided to worship on Sunday - for no other reason than that was the Day of the Week Jesus had appeared to them back from the dead. This was not forced on them. The edict of Constantine would not be issued for several centuries.
D) I have found keeping the festivals to be very edifying; especially, now that their true meaning has been revealed. However, I do not believe they are mandatory as they were even under the prior covenant. The NT gives no warnings about what will happen if we should we choose NOT to keep them. While keeping Shabbat can also be edifying in that it keeps us from labor which distracts from our focus on the things of God, even that is no longer imposed as it was before under Moses.
E. However, you are unwilling to accept this, so you magify breaking Shabbat to the level of a damnable sin which could jeoparize our eternal salvation. By contrast, when I read Jesus parables about the Judgment I find no reference to anyone being condemned for not keeping Shabbat. Many are condemned for having lived their lives in sin others for defecting from the faith and denying Jesus but never for breaking Shabbat.
G. Messiah said the Father had given to Him His authority to forgive sin. This greatly offended the rabbis who insisted that only God could forgive sins. When the paralytic asked for healing, rabbis were there were listening to every word. Jesus accepted the challenge:
So I will prove to you that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins.” Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and go home!” (Matthew 9:5-7)
Believe in Jesus as Messiah and Lord, for it is through faith that souls are saved by God's grace:
"through faith" indicates God's condition for forgiveness (IF/MFW), and "that not of yourselves"
indicates that saving faith is not meritorious (Acts 16:31, Eph. 2:8).
"through faith" indicates God's condition for forgiveness (IF/MFW), and "that not of yourselves"
indicates that saving faith is not meritorious (Acts 16:31, Eph. 2:8).
Rather then address all the problems in the above,
Lets ask a question.
The Word of God, Old T and New T, both are difficult to understand, if that were not so then there would only be one Church of God the Father.
Why is the Word hard to understand?
Could God have made it much easier to determine what we are required to do? what the plan is?
Yes! But God did not do that. and even Christ told the 12, it is given for you to understand , but not them.
So now we have thousands of diverse churches with one believing this and another believing that.
Where does that leave us? If it is up to each individual to find God's Truth and The One True Church --- good luck with that.
On this site, with many 250 to 300, how many are in 100% agreement? zero
And you and I are right?
each of us can read a scripture and we will come up with 5 different interpretations.
Therefore: If God the Father does not call a person and send them to Christ -- they can not get there.
Has Jesus Christ given us a way to determine if a person is even close to the Truth of God?
a way to decide if we should even listen to what a person has to say about God's Truth?
Isaiah 8
20 To the law and to the testimony:
if they speak not according to this word,
[it is] because [there is] no light in them
the law, Torah
the testimony; two tables of Stone
those that profess the Torah and the 10 Commandments are abolished, I will not listen to