Bible Translation Discussion Place
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Manuscript debate is not my cup of tea but i do know that there are least manuscript lines which I will call vines because there is a vine of Christ.
Jesus said I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Do you agree that the words of Jesus are what cause believers to produce fruit in our lives?
Jesus said I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Do you agree that the words of Jesus are what cause believers to produce fruit in our lives?
Indirectly.....what cause a believer to bear fruit is union with Christ...the Scripture instructs him, but the believer must be united with Christ. That is what the vine/branches reference is about.
The believer is united with Christ, though..read I Cor 6 and Rom 6. They are joined in both a vital (life-giving) sense, as well as a legal sense, and that is what eternal life is about.
The believer is united with Christ, though..read I Cor 6 and Rom 6. They are joined in both a vital (life-giving) sense, as well as a legal sense, and that is what eternal life is about.
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aren't you kind of derailing your own thread, lol?
i believe the words of Jesus are the words of the same One who said "let there be light" and there was light.
His words do not go out from Him and return empty - they accomplish their purpose.
when He spoke and the heavens and the earth came to exist, do you think the words were uttered in an human language? or is Genesis 2 a 'translation of a translation' ?
i.e. from God's words to Moses' language, and then to ours?
i believe the words of Jesus are the words of the same One who said "let there be light" and there was light.
His words do not go out from Him and return empty - they accomplish their purpose.
when He spoke and the heavens and the earth came to exist, do you think the words were uttered in an human language? or is Genesis 2 a 'translation of a translation' ?
i.e. from God's words to Moses' language, and then to ours?
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So it is imperative for every believer to decide which tranlation they consider to be the Word that God gave. To accept all translations as being God's Word is futile since they don't read tje same and some read just the opposite. To say that one accepts the Bible in the ORIGINAL TEXTS is only skirting the issue dince all true believers do the same. It is wrong to demand that others accept the same translation as you do but it is ok to expect others to accept ONE and not ALL since they don't read the same.
Do people who go by the KJV have higher morals, and try to be more like Christ, or do the people that go by the newer translations have higher morals, and try to be more like Christ.
Does the KJV claim the God of Israel, Jesus as Lord and Savior, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, to have faith, confess Christ, repent of sins and turn from them, and allow the Spirit to lead you and abstain from sins.
Does the KJV speak with authority more than the newer translations.
Ask the old time preachers at a time when people were more moral, and wanted to be moral compared to today.
Which there is a website called The Old Time Gospel Ministry and they go by the KJV.
I do not go against the newer versions but I do not know how the KJV is a problem.
And God can use the heathen to get out His word, and truth if they have a big influence on people, and have power and control, for God would want His truth to shine.
As in the case of Babylon when king Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged the God of Israel as the greatest of all the gods, and proclaimed throughout his kingdom that if anybody said anything against the God of Israel they would be cut in pieces and their house made a dunghill.
And because of that Babylon was referred to as gold, and rode on eagle's wings, but she was still a heathen nation that was in to the occult, many religions, and many gods.
And America that allows the God of Israel to be worshipped in their nation without retaliation, and allows the preaching of the Gospel in the nation, and the world.
Yet America has occult ways about her, and the symbol on the back of the dollar bill is an occult symbol, and God was against Egypt that America, and Freemasonry seem to identify with.
And America allows all religions to be practiced in their nation including Satanism, the occult, and the new age movement.
And loves money which the love of money is the root of all evil, and fleshy lusts that wage war on the soul, and worldliness, which God said love not the world or the things in the world.
Yet she gets the Gospel and the truth out there big time.
But is America a heathen nation, or a Christian nation, and she has a system like Babylon.
So people cannot say anything about the people back then when the KJV came out for God can use the heathen to get out His word and truth if they have power and control, and a great influence among many people.
Also no nation has ever done it right before God except Israel when she was in the truth, for all other nations that claimed the God of Israel held unto heathen ways, and it was in their nation.
Does the KJV claim the God of Israel, Jesus as Lord and Savior, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, to have faith, confess Christ, repent of sins and turn from them, and allow the Spirit to lead you and abstain from sins.
Does the KJV speak with authority more than the newer translations.
Ask the old time preachers at a time when people were more moral, and wanted to be moral compared to today.
Which there is a website called The Old Time Gospel Ministry and they go by the KJV.
I do not go against the newer versions but I do not know how the KJV is a problem.
And God can use the heathen to get out His word, and truth if they have a big influence on people, and have power and control, for God would want His truth to shine.
As in the case of Babylon when king Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged the God of Israel as the greatest of all the gods, and proclaimed throughout his kingdom that if anybody said anything against the God of Israel they would be cut in pieces and their house made a dunghill.
And because of that Babylon was referred to as gold, and rode on eagle's wings, but she was still a heathen nation that was in to the occult, many religions, and many gods.
And America that allows the God of Israel to be worshipped in their nation without retaliation, and allows the preaching of the Gospel in the nation, and the world.
Yet America has occult ways about her, and the symbol on the back of the dollar bill is an occult symbol, and God was against Egypt that America, and Freemasonry seem to identify with.
And America allows all religions to be practiced in their nation including Satanism, the occult, and the new age movement.
And loves money which the love of money is the root of all evil, and fleshy lusts that wage war on the soul, and worldliness, which God said love not the world or the things in the world.
Yet she gets the Gospel and the truth out there big time.
But is America a heathen nation, or a Christian nation, and she has a system like Babylon.
So people cannot say anything about the people back then when the KJV came out for God can use the heathen to get out His word and truth if they have power and control, and a great influence among many people.
Also no nation has ever done it right before God except Israel when she was in the truth, for all other nations that claimed the God of Israel held unto heathen ways, and it was in their nation.
I really don’t know how God spoke the world into existence. The point I was making is that there are two vines in the Bible, one is the vine of Christ and the other is the vine of Sodom which is the vine of Antichrist. Both vines produce fruit.
VCO is saying that the newer versions are translated from the originals. I said no they are not because the originals don’t exist anymore.
VCO then said:
NEWER ACTUAL TRANSLATIONS, Were based on OLDER ORIGINAL LANGUAGE MANUSCRIPTS.
I am now trying to get VCO to see that older doesn’t mean more accurate because there are two vines - the vine of Christ and the vine of Sodom.
Modern translations mix the two vines.
VCO is saying that the newer versions are translated from the originals. I said no they are not because the originals don’t exist anymore.
VCO then said:
NEWER ACTUAL TRANSLATIONS, Were based on OLDER ORIGINAL LANGUAGE MANUSCRIPTS.
I am now trying to get VCO to see that older doesn’t mean more accurate because there are two vines - the vine of Christ and the vine of Sodom.
Modern translations mix the two vines.
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Here is an example of the two vines.... this just came up in another thread where this person reads this verse and thinks that their name can be blotted out of the book of life.
Vine of Sodom
Psalm 69:27-28, “Add iniquity to their iniquity! Let them not come into Your righteousness! May they be blotted out of The Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous!”
Vine of Christ
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Do you see a MAJOR difference between the two vines?
Vine of Sodom
Psalm 69:27-28, “Add iniquity to their iniquity! Let them not come into Your righteousness! May they be blotted out of The Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous!”
Vine of Christ
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Do you see a MAJOR difference between the two vines?
For an English translation, I like the KJV, the older the better; one which has the words that King James' scribes added to the text in Italic to note they weren't original to the text they had. In many sections, the meaning of the text has changed with the addition of just a single italicized word.
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lol vine of sodom. I really do think you for pointg this our becasue I never studied this word, but I think you are going too far by calling it sodom.
this word in the hebrew can mean, alive, life, living, plant, beast, etc
H2416 חַי chay (chah'-ee) adj.
1. alive.
2. (hence) raw (flesh).
3. fresh (plant, water, year), strong.
4. (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively.
[from H2421]
KJV: + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.Root(s): H2421
Brown-Driver-Briggs
- Original: חי
- Transliteration: Chay
- Phonetic: khah'-ee
- Definition:
1. living, alive (adjective)
a. green (of vegetation)
b. flowing, fresh (of water)
c. lively, active (of man)
d. reviving (of the springtime)
2. relatives (noun masculine)
3. life (abstract emphatic) (noun masculine)
a. life
b. sustenance, maintenance
4. living thing, animal (noun feminine)
a. animal
b. life
c. appetite
d. revival, renewal
5. community (noun feminine)
- Origin: from H2421 *
- TWOT entry: 644a
this word in the hebrew can mean, alive, life, living, plant, beast, etc
H2416 חַי chay (chah'-ee) adj.
1. alive.
2. (hence) raw (flesh).
3. fresh (plant, water, year), strong.
4. (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively.
[from H2421]
KJV: + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.Root(s): H2421
Brown-Driver-Briggs
- Original: חי
- Transliteration: Chay
- Phonetic: khah'-ee
- Definition:
1. living, alive (adjective)
a. green (of vegetation)
b. flowing, fresh (of water)
c. lively, active (of man)
d. reviving (of the springtime)
2. relatives (noun masculine)
3. life (abstract emphatic) (noun masculine)
a. life
b. sustenance, maintenance
4. living thing, animal (noun feminine)
a. animal
b. life
c. appetite
d. revival, renewal
5. community (noun feminine)
- Origin: from H2421 *
- TWOT entry: 644a
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The vine of Sodom comes from the bible.
Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
Deu 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
Deu 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Our Rock is Christ.
Their Rock is antichrist.
Our Vine is the vine of Christ.
Their Vine is the vine of antichrist.
Our wine is the Holy Spirit.
Their wine is the cruel venom of serpents.
Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
Deu 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
Deu 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Our Rock is Christ.
Their Rock is antichrist.
Our Vine is the vine of Christ.
Their Vine is the vine of antichrist.
Our wine is the Holy Spirit.
Their wine is the cruel venom of serpents.
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I dont disagree wit that, you hav eclearly shown it in the word, Im saying I dont think translating chay into life ratherthan living is "vine of sodom" as the word can mean both and the kjv uses it as life also in different places.
Also when Jesus says: "I will not blot out his name out of the book of life" I think that shows it possible for some, not His chosen, but others to be "blotted out" thus showing that translation verse in Psalms is not evil.
Revelation 3: 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
WIth all that said I respect you zealousness for His word! May the Lamb guide us!
Also when Jesus says: "I will not blot out his name out of the book of life" I think that shows it possible for some, not His chosen, but others to be "blotted out" thus showing that translation verse in Psalms is not evil.
Revelation 3: 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
WIth all that said I respect you zealousness for His word! May the Lamb guide us!
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Ok then let's move on to this verse then. 
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Let's change the verse a little bit for illustration purposes.
He that overcomes this world will be clothed in white raiment: and I will not cast him into the lake of fire.
Does that mean that mean Jesus MIGHT cast someone who overcomes the world into the lake of fire?
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Let's change the verse a little bit for illustration purposes.
He that overcomes this world will be clothed in white raiment: and I will not cast him into the lake of fire.
Does that mean that mean Jesus MIGHT cast someone who overcomes the world into the lake of fire?