Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances

[Studyman]

Paul didn’t put Gentiles under the Law of Moses. He continually protected them from Law keepers. Who sought to frustrate the grace of Christ because they were jealous of the believers’ freedom.

The Pharisees were not trying to turn people to God and His Commandments. This is an insidious lie that is widely taught and believed by many religious people on this forum. The Jews that opposed Jesus Paul and Peter, were not trying to get people to follow "The Law of Moses". They were trying to get folks to follow their religion that Jesus said was founded on the "Commandments of Men", not God. They called their religion The Law of Moses, They read from the Law of Moses, but they didn't follow or "Teach" the Law of Moses. Jesus exposed them as liars and hypocrites over and over. Why people choose to believe them over Jesus is fascinating to me, yet I see it almost every day on this forum.


I can imagine how frustrating it was for Jesus who was fighting with people who claimed to be representatives of God, yet taught lies about God's Word, even after He showed them in the scriptures and exposed the lie.


The Apostles didn't protect the New believers from obedient Christians, or the true Law of Moses as you preach. They protected the new believers from a religion that had deceived "MANY" people, was the cause of the murder of many prophets for centuries, and the murder of the Word which became Flesh, Stephen and many others. The Apostles directed the Gentiles "TOWARDS" God Commandments and the "Law of Moses" to learn from, and away from the Mainstream Preaching of that time, just as Jesus told them to do.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, (They follow and preach the Laws of God) and do not.

4 For they (Pharisees,Not God, or Moses)bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders(Necks); but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (Burdens placed on them by the Pharisees, not Moses)

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols,(Law of Moses) and from fornication,(Law of Moses) and from things strangled,(Law of Moses) and from blood.(Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Only as Jesus said, do as they read, not as they preach, because they say they follow the Law of Moses but in truth they "Teach for Doctrines the Commandments of men".

I wish people would stop using this forum as a vehicle to further the insidious lie that the Pharisees were "trying to earn salvation" by following God's Laws, and not their own as Jesus taught. This one lie is the cause of so many false doctrines. If a person will come clean with himself regarding this one false teaching, it would free him of so much deception.

I know you mean well Cee, and this is what we both have been taught since our youth. This is what Jesus warned of in Matt. 24. Look into it yourself and you will find that the Apostles led believers away from the doctrines of the Pharisees which transgressed the Commandments of God and "Towards" the Word of God which does not.

 

[Studyman]

=

seed_time_harvest;3528639]In the old testament the bible DOES say to remember the Sabbath and keep It holy but under Grace the bible says not to have respect for a holy day,the body Is of CHRIST.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ. (Not man's traditions)

Paul is saying not to let any man judge me for respecting God's Holy days. They are a shadow of Christ, not vain deceit, tradition of men or rudiments of the world.

Since both of these scriptures are from GOD shouldn't they be harmonized together so they make sense or should they be sounding contradictory and confusing?

They are only confusing because of false mainstream preaching. These Holy Days were created by Jesus. He said they are His Feasts, not man's traditions.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Lev. 23:1 And the LORD (The Word which became Flesh) spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my (The Word which became Flesh) feasts.

Of course Paul said not to let man judge me for recognizing and following this truth.

 

[Jackson123]

And that's the $64.00 question.

I don't know.

The law of Moses was not communicated and taught by writing it down. And rabbinical law was (apparently) not written down at all anywhere.

The conclusion I've come to is Paul is talking about both the law itself and the rabbinical add-on law being nailed to the cross, though the context outside of vs. 14 is clearly addressing the specific topic of being delivered from the judgment and condemnation of rabbinical law.

When we no longer had to keep the Festival cycle of the law because of faith in Christ, any and all rabbinical judgments on how to keep the Festival cycle of the law ended too. Hence, Paul is saying we are no longer able to be condemned by those man-made, philosophically based, carnal requirements of rabbinical law. We are not to let any man judge and condemn us in regard to those laws anymore.


"16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days"-Colossians 2:16

Good conclusion, and I want to add, to me sabbath days (plural) mean both weekly sabbath and yearly sabbath. I am not good in grammar but if Paul mean only yearly sabbath why use plural?

 

[Cee]

The Pharisees were not trying to turn people to God and His Commandments. This is an insidious lie that is widely taught and believed by many religious people on this forum. The Jews that opposed Jesus Paul and Peter, were not trying to get people to follow "The Law of Moses". They were trying to get folks to follow their religion that Jesus said was founded on the "Commandments of Men", not God. They called their religion The Law of Moses, They read from the Law of Moses, but they didn't follow or "Teach" the Law of Moses. Jesus exposed them as liars and hypocrites over and over. Why people choose to believe them over Jesus is fascinating to me, yet I see it almost every day on this forum.


I can imagine how frustrating it was for Jesus who was fighting with people who claimed to be representatives of God, yet taught lies about God's Word, even after He showed them in the scriptures and exposed the lie.


The Apostles didn't protect the New believers from obedient Christians, or the true Law of Moses as you preach. They protected the new believers from a religion that had deceived "MANY" people, was the cause of the murder of many prophets for centuries, and the murder of the Word which became Flesh, Stephen and many others. The Apostles directed the Gentiles "TOWARDS" God Commandments and the "Law of Moses" to learn from, and away from the Mainstream Preaching of that time, just as Jesus told them to do.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, (They follow and preach the Laws of God) and do not.

4 For they (Pharisees,Not God, or Moses)bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders(Necks); but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (Burdens placed on them by the Pharisees, not Moses)

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols,(Law of Moses) and from fornication,(Law of Moses) and from things strangled,(Law of Moses) and from blood.(Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Only as Jesus said, do as they read, not as they preach, because they say they follow the Law of Moses but in truth they "Teach for Doctrines the Commandments of men".

I wish people would stop using this forum as a vehicle to further the insidious lie that the Pharisees were "trying to earn salvation" by following God's Laws, and not their own as Jesus taught. This one lie is the cause of so many false doctrines. If a person will come clean with himself regarding this one false teaching, it would free him of so much deception.

I know you mean well Cee, and this is what we both have been taught since our youth. This is what Jesus warned of in Matt. 24. Look into it yourself and you will find that the Apostles led believers away from the doctrines of the Pharisees which transgressed the Commandments of God and "Towards" the Word of God which does not.

Hmm, well I don't especially love this stance, "I know you mean well..." It comes off a bit like, I don't know what I am talking about and only you do. And I am simply "listening to what other people tell me".

I have extensively showed in posts that the Law that was brought to an end WAS the 10 commandments, I have explained how the Law is fulfilled, I have shown how the Law was never given to Gentiles (which we all are), these are not things I was taught growing up, I've done tons of my own personal study.

Here's an example that actually refutes everything you've said, simply using Scripture:

Phil 3:2Watch out for those dogs, those workers of evil, those mutilators of the flesh! 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself could have such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to righteousness under the Law, faultless. 7But whatever was an asset to me, I count as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.

Yet here you stand saying faith in Christ isn't enough. And Paul says, thats ALL that matters. If any man could be justified by what you say we need to justified by Paul would be it. And he considered it rubbish.

 

[Ralph-]

i agree, both - but rabbinical judgements were never against us according to His judgement; He calls them lying prophets who say He has spoken when He has not, and it has always been those that 'listen to God rather than men' that are approved by Him.

This is about the lying prophets. This is about the judges of Israel who presided over the affairs of Israel. The law commanded that the Israelites recognize their authority and do what they said to do in the judgments they made:


"10“You shall do according to the terms of the verdict which they declare to you from that place which the LORD chooses; and you shall be careful to observe according to all that they teach you. 11“According to the terms of the law which they teach you, and according to the verdict which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside from the word which they declare to you, to the right or the left."-Deuteronomy 17:10


As you know, some of these verdicts concerning cleanliness and worship were pretty silly, but the people of God were bound by them anyway. And it is those decrees, specifically, that Paul is saying we are released from and can not be judged by anymore and forced to obey because the law of Moses from which these interpretations are derived has itself been set aside. And so the ruling authorities are made public spectacles by the work of Christ and we say "talk to the hand, talk to the hand, Rabbi" whenever someone tries to burden us again with a judgement of how to keep the ceremonial law.

Paul's harsh language about the laws in question here clearly indicate he is aiming at rabbinical law, not the law of Moses itself. His point being, if even the laws of Sabbath's and Festival themselves no longer HAVE to be performed (we approach God in the new way of faith in Christ now) how much less then do we have to be judged by some Rabbi's ridiculous decision about how to keep them. That's what this chapter is about. It's primary message is not about the law of Moses itself.

observation of what a person eats or drinks and their observation of & participation in religious feasts, new moon festivals and sabbaths are all in the Law of Moses, they're not 'invented' by rabbis/pharisees what have you. their may be added regulation, but here in Col 2:16 the specific things, which he calls shadows of Christ, are not extra-scriptural additions, they are what much of the law concerns: diet and days. feasts, which have high sabbaths, sabbaths for the new moon, how the calendar for observation of days is set, and weekly sabbath.
if this is about extra-Mosaic rabbinic addition in v. 16, not about the commands in the Pentateuch concerning the very same diet and days, then those human traditions are what are being called shadows of Him, aren't they? are they shadows of Him?

No. Notice he says to not let anyone judge you 'IN RESPECT TO' a Festival, New Moon, etc. The judging 'in respect to' the holy days is the burden of the rabbinical judgments. The holy days themselves are indeed the shadow of Christ, not the rabbinical add-on laws, but his language makes it so he can in fact be talking about the rabbinical law, while at the same time making note that the law of Moses itself is the shadow and type of the reality.

 

[Ralph-]

The Jews that opposed Jesus Paul and Peter, were not trying to get people to follow "The Law of Moses". They were trying to get folks to follow their religion that Jesus said was founded on the "Commandments of Men", not God. They called their religion The Law of Moses, They read from the Law of Moses, but they didn't follow or "Teach" the Law of Moses. Jesus exposed them as liars and hypocrites over and over. Why people choose to believe them over Jesus is fascinating to me, yet I see it almost every day on this forum.

Kind of like Christianity too.

So many people claiming to endorse Christianity, and claim the Bible is their authority, yet what they espouse does not resemble what the actual words of the Bible say.

 

[Ralph-]

Hmm, well I don't especially love this stance, "I know you mean well..." It comes off a bit like, I don't know what I am talking about and only you do. And I am simply "listening to what other people tell me".

I have extensively showed in posts that the Law that was brought to an end WAS the 10 commandments, I have explained how the Law is fulfilled, I have shown how the Law was never given to Gentiles (which we all are), these are not things I was taught growing up, I've done tons of my own personal study.

Here's an example that actually refutes everything you've said, simply using Scripture:

Phil 3:2Watch out for those dogs, those workers of evil, those mutilators of the flesh! 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself could have such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to righteousness under the Law, faultless. 7But whatever was an asset to me, I count as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.

Yet here you stand saying faith in Christ isn't enough. And Paul says, thats ALL that matters. If any man could be justified by what you say we need to justified by Paul would be it. And he considered it rubbish.

Cee, the context of the passage you cite is clearly that of trying to be justified by the law, not just keeping the law. This is the point that the church fails to see, even when you explain it to them.

For some reason we in the church are only capable of understanding the law being a necessary action of faith as meaning you trying to earn your own salvation. Yet we are quick to assert that 'do not murder' is a necessary action of faith and does not mean you trying to earn your own salvation. See the duplicity?

You must start understanding that the law keepers reason for keeping the law is the same reason we say we must keep the law. Not in order to be justified, but because that's what justifying faith is expected to do, or else it isn't justifying faith. The only difference between them and us is they consider the ceremonial law to be a part of that law that gets upheld and kept by saving faith. And if it wasn't for the anti-semitic early church fathers, we'd all be in agreement with that because there would be no competing man made ceremonies to observe!

 

[Cee]

Let me just blow up this argument about "2 different Laws" for good.

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

You can not be intellectual honest and say that this is talking about any other Law besides the 10 Commandments. Because the Gentiles do NOT have the 613 little laws written on their hearts. Also please note the GENTILES don't have the Law! Quit trying to put Gentiles under the Law!

Now for this idea that the Pharisees weren't breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's address this too.

17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?
<<=== 10 Commandments.

Paul's argument against the Jews who rely on the law is that they are BREAKING IT. Not the 613 little laws! So that argument is COMPLETELY incorrect. The Jews were teaching people to follow the Law (The 10 Commandments) while they themselves were BREAKING IT.

And finally Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

NO human being is justified by the works of the law. The righteousness of God is APART from it. And the Law AND the prophets ALL bear witness to the righteousness of God through BELIEF only.

If you say that this law is about the 613 little laws and not the 10 Commandments, you're ignoring Romans 2 that clearly shows the Pharisees were breaking the 10 Commandments. The clarity of this Scripture is unavoidable.

Case closed.

 

[Cee]

Cee, the context of the passage you cite is clearly that of trying to be justified by the law, not just keeping the law. This is the point that the church fails to see, even when you explain it to them.

For some reason we in the church are only capable of understanding the law being a necessary action of faith as meaning you trying to earn your own salvation. Yet we are quick to assert that 'do not murder' is a necessary action of faith and does not mean you trying to earn your own salvation. See the duplicity?

You must start understanding that the law keepers reason for keeping the law is the same reason we say we must keep the law. Not in order to be justified, but because that's what justifying faith is expected to do, or else it isn't justifying faith. The only difference between them and us is they consider the ceremonial law to be a part of that law that gets upheld and kept by saving faith. And if it wasn't for the anti-semitic early church fathers, we'd all be in agreement with that because there would be no competing man made ceremonies to observe!

Gal 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

 

[Studyman]

Hmm, well I don't especially love this stance, "I know you mean well..." It comes off a bit like, I don't know what I am talking about and only you do. And I am simply "listening to what other people tell me".

I have extensively showed in posts that the Law that was brought to an end WAS the 10 commandments, I have explained how the Law is fulfilled, I have shown how the Law was never given to Gentiles (which we all are), these are not things I was taught growing up, I've done tons of my own personal study.

Here's an example that actually refutes everything you've said, simply using Scripture:

Phil 3:2Watch out for those dogs, those workers of evil, those mutilators of the flesh! 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself could have such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to righteousness under the Law, faultless. 7But whatever was an asset to me, I count as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.

Yet here you stand saying faith in Christ isn't enough. And Paul says, thats ALL that matters. If any man could be justified by what you say we need to justified by Paul would be it. And he considered it rubbish.

Your understanding of one scripture does not erase all the Word's of the Christ, all the Prophesies of the Law and Prophets, and All that Paul wrote about the Mainstream Preachers of their time.

I'm not a big fan of making the claim that one scripture voids the rest of the Bible as you do here. If what you are doing here is right. Then I can do the same, YES?

Rom. 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So if I were to follow your example, I would say to you:

Here's an example that actually refutes everything you've said, simply using Scripture:

I would be right yes, and everything you said and believed would be wrong because there can be no misunderstanding this scripture. It's as clear as they come. Man is justified by the Law.

You may believe this is the way Jesus instructs us to study because that is how the mainstream church promotes various religious traditions.

Maybe you are right. Maybe we are all free to pick a verse that fits our fancy and reject the rest of the Word. I just can't buy that.

So to the Scripture you used to destroy all the Word's of the Christ that I posted.

Phil. 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

What did Jesus say about the Pharisees "EVERY TIME HE SPOKE OF THEM"? Were they "Law Keepers". Did they teach God's Laws, or did they place their own burdens on the necks of people? Did they teach the Law of Moses, or did they "teach for doctrines the Commandments of men"?

Well Cee, you preach Paul destroyed the Word's of Jesus that describe the Pharisees, in his letter to the Philippians. So when Jesus called them liars, Hypocrites, Thieves, children of satan, when He said the taught for Doctrines the Commandments of Men, when Jesus said they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own Traditions" that was all a lie.

I'm sorry Cee, I don't believe you over the Word's of Jesus. The Pharisees were "law breakers" not Law keepers.

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul was a Pharisee. He was zealous for the Pharisee religion. He said the same thing to the Galatians.

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

"As touching the Law, a Pharisee". Your preaching that Paul is claiming here to be righteous because he followed God's Laws is foolish. Paul's own Word's prove your belief here as wrong.

Romans 10:For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Do you really believe Paul was speaking about God's Laws here?

"touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." How was killing the Prophets and persecuting God's Church following God's Law?

But the Pharisees did have a Law Cee. "We have a Law, and by our Law he should die". Paul was part of that Law which condemned and Killed Jesus, and Stephen. Can you show me in the Law and Prophets where they condemned these two?

You can't Cee, because it isn't there. Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He followed their religion and their Law perfectly, blameless. Not the Good, Just and Holy Laws of God.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Paul lost everything. All His life long friends. His honor among the mainstream religious people of that time. The religion he loved and lived in for all his life. All the traditions and religious "works of the Law" for atonement. He lost everything.

But in doing so he won Christ.



9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul and the Pharisees were not following God's Laws, they had created their own righteousness and their own Laws as it is written over and over.


Paul had great Faith in the Pharisees religion, he was more zealous for it than most. He believed his Faith was in the God of Abraham, but he was deceived.

Paul had Faith before Jesus and After Jesus. Which faith saved him?

My problem with your preaching is that you preach a different Gospel that what Paul or Jesus taught. Like Saul before Paul you have Faith. But your Faith is missing something because you are preaching things about God's Word that is just not true. If Christ's Spirit were leading you, this would not be the case.

Jesus explained the same thing to people in His time, and Paul did too. My sincere hope is that you will consider the point of view I am sharing, and let's have a discussion. Or you can find another scripture and claim that it wipes out all the words of this post.




Like it is written; "You will know their faith by their works."

 

[Cee]

Romans 2:11-12 is explaining their need for Christ. Not their need to follow the Law. Because no one is justified by the Law. We are justified APART from the Law.

And I didn't give you one Scripture, I gave you an entire passage of Scripture that is crystal clear. You'll notice I posted the entire context, because if I just used a few, it's too easy to be stuck in eisigesis.

Your understanding of one scripture does not erase all the Word's of the Christ, all the Prophesies of the Law and Prophets, and All that Paul wrote about the Mainstream Preachers of their time.

I'm not a big fan of making the claim that one scripture voids the rest of the Bible as you do here. If what you are doing here is right. Then I can do the same, YES?

Rom. 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So if I were to follow your example, I would say to you:



I would be right yes, and everything you said and believed would be wrong because there can be no misunderstanding this scripture. It's as clear as they come. Man is justified by the Law.

You may believe this is the way Jesus instructs us to study because that is how the mainstream church promotes various religious traditions.

Maybe you are right. Maybe we are all free to pick a verse that fits our fancy and reject the rest of the Word. I just can't buy that.

So to the Scripture you used to destroy all the Word's of the Christ that I posted.

Phil. 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

What did Jesus say about the Pharisees "EVERY TIME HE SPOKE OF THEM"? Were they "Law Keepers". Did they teach God's Laws, or did they place their own burdens on the necks of people? Did they teach the Law of Moses, or did they "teach for doctrines the Commandments of men"?

Well Cee, you preach Paul destroyed the Word's of Jesus that describe the Pharisees, in his letter to the Philippians. So when Jesus called them liars, Hypocrites, Thieves, children of satan, when He said the taught for Doctrines the Commandments of Men, when Jesus said they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own Traditions" that was all a lie.

I'm sorry Cee, I don't believe you over the Word's of Jesus. The Pharisees were "law breakers" not Law keepers.

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul was a Pharisee. He was zealous for the Pharisee religion. He said the same thing to the Galatians.

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

"As touching the Law, a Pharisee". Your preaching that Paul is claiming here to be righteous because he followed God's Laws is foolish. Paul's own Word's prove your belief here as wrong.

Romans 10:For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Do you really believe Paul was speaking about God's Laws here?

"touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." How was killing the Prophets and persecuting God's Church following God's Law?

But the Pharisees did have a Law Cee. "We have a Law, and by our Law he should die". Paul was part of that Law which condemned and Killed Jesus, and Stephen. Can you show me in the Law and Prophets where they condemned these two?

You can't Cee, because it isn't there. Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He followed their religion and their Law perfectly, blameless. Not the Good, Just and Holy Laws of God.



Paul lost everything. All His life long friends. His honor among the mainstream religious people of that time. The religion he loved and lived in for all his life. All the traditions and religious "works of the Law" for atonement. He lost everything.

But in doing so he won Christ.



9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul and the Pharisees were not following God's Laws, they had created their own righteousness and their own Laws as it is written over and over.


Paul had great Faith in the Pharisees religion, he was more zealous for it than most. He believed his Faith was in the God of Abraham, but he was deceived.

Paul had Faith before Jesus and After Jesus. Which faith saved him?

My problem with your preaching is that you preach a different Gospel that what Paul or Jesus taught. Like Saul before Paul you have Faith. But your Faith is missing something because you are preaching things about God's Word that is just not true.

Jesus explained the same thing to people in His time, and Paul did too. My sincere hope is that you will consider the point of view I am sharing, and let's have a discussion. Or you can find another scripture and claim that it wipes out all the words of this post.




Like it is written; "You will know their faith by their works."

 

[Studyman]

Let me just blow up this argument about "2 different Laws" for good.

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

You can not be intellectual honest and say that this is talking about any other Law besides the 10 Commandments. Because the Gentiles do NOT have the 613 little laws written on their hearts. Also please note the GENTILES don't have the Law! Quit trying to put Gentiles under the Law!

Now for this idea that the Pharisees weren't breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's address this too.

17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?
<<=== 10 Commandments.

Paul's argument against the Jews who rely on the law is that they are BREAKING IT. Not the 613 little laws! So that argument is COMPLETELY incorrect. The Jews were teaching people to follow the Law (The 10 Commandments) while they themselves were BREAKING IT.

And finally Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

NO human being is justified by the works of the law. The righteousness of God is APART from it. And the Law AND the prophets ALL bear witness to the righteousness of God through BELIEF only.

If you say that this law is about the 613 little laws and not the 10 Commandments, you're ignoring Romans 2 that clearly shows the Pharisees were breaking the 10 Commandments. The clarity of this Scripture is unavoidable.

Case closed.

I'll use your words Cee;

Here's an example that actually refutes everything you've said, simply using Scripture:

rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

And again from Paul;

Gal. 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Transgressions of what? Wasn't the Levitical Priesthood Sacrificial, Ceremonial "Law of Works" added to the "Law of faith" Abraham followed?

2 Laws as Paul peaches.

There is not now nor has there even been 613 laws. There are two.

Love God

Love your neighbor

The Law and Prophets instruct us how to follow these two Laws. The entire Old Testament is hanging on these two laws.

As Paul said;

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


The Pharisees created their own Path. their own Laws and did not follow the instructions The Word had prepared for them as it is written;

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;(Not any Faith, but faith in the Word which became Flesh) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God (The Word which became Flesh) hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Pharisees rejected the "good works" that Jesus created beforehand for them to "walk in" and created their own.

This has been going on since Eve and continues to this day.

 

[gb9]

Romans 2:11-12 is explaining their need for Christ. Not their need to follow the Law. Because no one is justified by the Law. We are justified APART from the Law.

And I didn't give you one Scripture, I gave you an entire passage of Scripture that is crystal clear. You'll notice I posted the entire context, because if I just used a few, it's too easy to be stuck in eisigesis.

cee, with all due respect, you are wasting your time on studydude. he is 100% convinced that he " knows " all these things- the Pharisees were satan worshipers , the thief on the cross already knew and accepted Christ beforehand, ( although Jesus said he authority to forgive sins, I guess studydude missed that ), and that Acts 15 puts gentiles under the law , based on James's comment in the council meeting , but their is no record of that statement in the actual letter.

he has been shown by posthuman how all 613 laws connect to the Torah, yet he keeps insisting that the laws had nothing to do with it. so, I have him on ignore, it is useless to try to interact with someone who has been shown something very clearly, yet flat refuses to believe it.

 

[Grandpa]

The Pharisees were not trying to turn people to God and His Commandments. This is an insidious lie that is widely taught and believed by many religious people on this forum. The Jews that opposed Jesus Paul and Peter, were not trying to get people to follow "The Law of Moses". They were trying to get folks to follow their religion that Jesus said was founded on the "Commandments of Men", not God. They called their religion The Law of Moses, They read from the Law of Moses, but they didn't follow or "Teach" the Law of Moses. Jesus exposed them as liars and hypocrites over and over. Why people choose to believe them over Jesus is fascinating to me, yet I see it almost every day on this forum.


I can imagine how frustrating it was for Jesus who was fighting with people who claimed to be representatives of God, yet taught lies about God's Word, even after He showed them in the scriptures and exposed the lie.


The Apostles didn't protect the New believers from obedient Christians, or the true Law of Moses as you preach. They protected the new believers from a religion that had deceived "MANY" people, was the cause of the murder of many prophets for centuries, and the murder of the Word which became Flesh, Stephen and many others. The Apostles directed the Gentiles "TOWARDS" God Commandments and the "Law of Moses" to learn from, and away from the Mainstream Preaching of that time, just as Jesus told them to do.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, (They follow and preach the Laws of God) and do not.

4 For they (Pharisees,Not God, or Moses)bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders(Necks); but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (Burdens placed on them by the Pharisees, not Moses)

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols,(Law of Moses) and from fornication,(Law of Moses) and from things strangled,(Law of Moses) and from blood.(Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Only as Jesus said, do as they read, not as they preach, because they say they follow the Law of Moses but in truth they "Teach for Doctrines the Commandments of men".

I wish people would stop using this forum as a vehicle to further the insidious lie that the Pharisees were "trying to earn salvation" by following God's Laws, and not their own as Jesus taught. This one lie is the cause of so many false doctrines. If a person will come clean with himself regarding this one false teaching, it would free him of so much deception.

I know you mean well Cee, and this is what we both have been taught since our youth. This is what Jesus warned of in Matt. 24. Look into it yourself and you will find that the Apostles led believers away from the doctrines of the Pharisees which transgressed the Commandments of God and "Towards" the Word of God which does not.

This is utter silliness.

The Pharisees THOUGHT they were doing Gods Will. Just like the lawyers, judaizers and Pharisees of today who keep their own version of what they think the law says.

Paul was a Pharisee. If he thought a distinction should be made between "rabbinical" law and the Law of Moses he would have said so in his Epistles. But he didn't. Because it is clear that those who follow the law of moses in their own strength and understanding make the SAME EXACT mistake as the Pharisees before them.

Paul is clear as to what the law is and why it is abolished in Christ. But you have to go to Christ and receive Rest in order for the vail to be removed from your mind.

 

[followjesus]

I don't know what this means. Moses wrote the law on a scroll at Sinai.

Just Before Moses died, this happened

And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, 25That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 26Take this book of the law, and put it at the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

27For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? 28Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. 29For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

the commandments were inside the ark , and the Book of the Mosaic Law, was placed at the side of the Ark to witness against anyone who sinned against the testimony in the Ark. its sole Purpose is to accuse sinners, to witness against them at the side of Gods Presence. His presence in the ot covenant, was he would appear in glory above the ark, Just beside Him, was the witness against sinners, the Law of Moses.


Paulo is literally saying " the book of the Law that was a witness against you at Gods side, Has Been taken away because it was against us, a witness against those who have sinned, placed again at Gods side. then Jesus the Word of God, ascends to Be seated at Gods right Hand. and were told He is Not threre accusing us But interceeding for us, advocating for us rather than accusing like the Mosaic Laws purpose always was to witness against People that God already Knew would turn from Him.


the commandments are eternal, the Mosaic Book of the Law, is taken from authority and Jesus does the OPPOSITE THAT THE lAW DID.

romans 8:34 " Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

1 john 2 " My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"


hebrews 7:25 " Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."



Rather than Having a constant rulebook that says " they sinned they Must be cut off from the People, or stone the sinners" Like the Law that really is against a sinner completely opposed. Now Jesus arrives saying I am for you, Not against you. we Have the same who suffered and died for us, living still at Gods right Hand, still pleading Our case Before the Father, still interceding for us, Based On His sacrifice. He is the answer

 

[Studyman]

Romans 2:11-12 is explaining their need for Christ. Not their need to follow the Law. Because no one is justified by the Law. We are justified APART from the Law.

And I didn't give you one Scripture, I gave you an entire passage of Scripture that is crystal clear. You'll notice I posted the entire context, because if I just used a few, it's too easy to be stuck in eisigesis.

No,

You posted a few scriptures and claimed they "refuted" the Word's of Paul and the Christ which describe the "LAW" the Pharisees, including Paul followed.

The Biblical truth is the Pharisees had corrupted God's Laws and created their own. Not because I said it, but because Paul said it, Jesus said it, Jeremiah Said it, Ezekiel said it, Isaiah Said it, Stephen said it.

The Biblical truth is the Pharisees rejected God's Law and they were blinded for doing it. You are free to try and find other scriptures which prove they were "Law Keepers" and make void the Word's of all these people. Maybe I missed something. But the ones you posted certainly didn't make void the Word's of all these people.

 

[Redeemed2015]

The before mentioned portion of Colossians 2, speaking of the "handwriting of ordinances that were against us is a direct reference to Numbers 5, beginning in verse 29. If you believe in Messiah, you would also believe in Moses. For Moses wrote of the Messiah.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

And what was the curse?

The law was added because of adams transgression meaning after the fall of man,man would have to fulfil GOD’s law In his or her own strength,Man born from the seed of adam trying to keep the law perfectly In the flesh can’t be done perfectly according to GOD’s perfect standard of righteousness because although the Spirit Is willing the flesh Is weak and thats why GOD’s law Is a curse to man.

Paul wrote,The law Is perfect but I am carnal sold under sin.

 

[Studyman]

This is utter silliness.

The Pharisees THOUGHT they were doing Gods Will. Just like the lawyers, judaizers and Pharisees of today who keep their own version of what they think the law says.

Paul was a Pharisee. If he thought a distinction should be made between "rabbinical" law and the Law of Moses he would have said so in his Epistles. But he didn't. Because it is clear that those who follow the law of moses in their own strength and understanding make the SAME EXACT mistake as the Pharisees before them.

Paul is clear as to what the law is and why it is abolished in Christ. But you have to go to Christ and receive Rest in order for the vail to be removed from your mind.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord (The Word which became Flesh) blameless.

This is how the Bible talks about people how love God and have faith in Him. These knew Jesus when He came.

Nothing you preach can erase this biblical Fact.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

This is how the Bible talks about people who create their own Laws and ways and reject God's Instructions. They didn't know Jesus when He came.

I know you preach against this, so does the Pope. I have already shown you where you are in error on this subject, but it is the very foundation of all your preaching against the Christ and His Words. I'm not going to argue with you anymore. Like Jesus said;

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

In the old testament the bible DOES say to remember the Sabbath and keep It holy but under Grace the bible says not to have respect for a holy day,the body Is of CHRIST.

Since both of these scriptures are from GOD shouldn't they be harmonized together so they make sense or should they be sounding contradictory and confusing?

Men added to OT law, whereas the New Testament commandments are all of Christ.

Men added to OT law, whereas the New Testament commandments are all of Christ.

That didn’t answer the question though,didn’t GOD say In the OT to remember the sabbath and keep It holy and In the NT didn’t GOD say not to have respect for a holy day and don’t these two scriptures sound contradictory so then,shouldn’t they be harmonized or should we try to keep both scriptures seperate although GOD Is ONE?

I think In the OT ,remember the sabbath and to keep It holy was for man,man would need to be perfect In his own strength before the WORD of GOD manifested In the flesh was sent to earth to pay for sin,how can man keep the sabbath perfectly In the flesh,If man can’t keep the sabbath perfectly then Isn’t It hypocritical to continue to offer GOD who Is perfect something that Is Imperfect.

In the NT JESUS would keep the sabbath perfectly as a man and give Grace righteously to whosoever believes In the WORD of GOD,so then do you see what JESUS Imparted when HE said come to me all who are burden and heavy laden?