Born Again?

[KennethC]

Also in Acts 8:37 what did the Apostle Philip say to the eunuch when he asked what prevents him from getting baptized ???


Answer: Philip told him only if "he believes with all his heart" can he get baptized.

 

[KennethC]

Okay well just on Acts 2:38:

Like I posted.. they were converted first by believing on the Son.. and then they got baptised pretty much straight afterwards.. because back then people were more prepared to get baptised straight away.

The addition of three thousand souls in Acts is.. an increase of membership for the local Jerusalem church of three thousand.

But again.. you know.. John 3:16, Romans 10.. they aren't seperate from this passage in terms of salvation. So you can compare them and they don't contradict.

We have a lady coming to our church who has been coming for 2 or 3 years.. hasn't been baptised yet. Doesn't mean she isn't converted. She is waiting for the right time. She doesn't want to be immersed in cold water during winter and our baptismal pool in the church building is out of order.

But what this is.. is not the same as 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'... that is different. Full immersion, water baptism.. and baptism of the Holy Spirit.. different things.

Matthew 18:20.. you see the Holy Spirit being 'in the midst' of a local church.

Acts.. you see groups of already saved believers being empowered by the Holy Spirit as corporate entities.

This is different from an individual being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

As for Luke 6:46-47

Yeah.. if christians don't obey Jesus they get disciplined and rebuked.. admonished. They haven't built on their faith. This is true.

Your earthly parents would also do this if they were doing their job if you disobey them... and also your earthly parents can't undo the biological connection you have to them. Once born into them.. can't go back and be born again into the family. The child of the parents also can't undo that biological connection.

Sure they can legally do things that in law state the parents are no longer theres.. but they biologically are still the son or daughter of those parents.

So.. someone like Jesus was saying with Nicodemus:

Is born of the water of the womb.. natural birth.. then is born again by the Holy Spirit.

Being born again by the Holy Spirit.. someone is given membership to the Family and Kingdom of God.

This is akin to being a member of a biological family. Can't be born a second time!

The converts back then got baptized right away because they understood it was a command !!!

Yes Christians will get disciplined by the Lord when they disobey and sin, but the scriptures such as 2 Peter 2:14 show that some will not accept that chastisement and not cease from sin and will be accursed children. Hebrews 10:39 shows that some will fall back to perdition, which is eternal death.

Again as I mentioned you have not answered my three questions that I repeated in post #39.

The born of water that Jesus is talking about to Nicodemus is not natural birth, that is taken out of context because of verse John 3:6. That however is not in context of being born again of water and Spirit, as when Nicodemus asked about this to Jesus he thought it was natural birth to. But Jesus responded to him saying you are a teacher of Israel and do not know these things.

Jesus was referring to the fact that Nicodemus was a Pharisee and a teacher of the law, and how he did not know that in the law water and blood both were used in sanctification. Born again through water-immersed in Christ, and then raised in as a new creation in the Spirit !!!

Look at post #41 where Philip told the eunuch that only those who believe with all their heart get baptized !!!

 

[AceMichaels]

I believe it because God's word says repentance and baptism comes before the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:5-6.

Those verses do not separate baptism from salvation as you think, because what do all the verses you bring up going to have in common? I bet they all will have the word "believe" in them, and if you see closely by the Lord Jesus own words part of a believer in Him is to be baptized as those who believe do what He said (Luke 6:46-47).

Wrong again about the OT as water was always used in sanctification and Hebrews 9:18-20 and 1 Corinthians 10:1-2 shows clearly that baptism was done in the OT.

Once again also take a close look at Acts 19:5-6 as Apostle Paul shows that baptism in the Lord is the immersion in water, as the Holy Spirit was not given tell after that in verse 6 when he laid his hands on them.

What came out of our Lord Jesus side when He was pierced on the cross, blood, water, or both ??? (John 19:34)


Plus what about my other two questions;

Why when Jesus 12 Apostles were baptizing others during His earthly ministry did He not tell them to stop, and why did they including Paul continue to baptize after His death and ascension if it is not needed ? Why did the Lord command it instead ?

Do you think the Lord would command something to be done if it was worthless or was not needed ???

I agree with you!!! This is the way I understand it. I have never heard of baptism as an option

 

[KennethC]

I agree with you!!! This is the way I understand it. I have never heard of baptism as an option

Only now day doctrines have it as a option, but in the days of the Lord's earthly ministry and the original Apostles it was a command from God.

Here are a couple more from the OT:

Exodus 19:10-11
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.



Exodus 29:4
And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.


Here is the one from Apostle Paul;


1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

 

[shotgunner]

Only now day doctrines have it as a option, but in the days of the Lord's earthly ministry and the original Apostles it was a command from God.

Here are a couple more from the OT:

Exodus 19:10-11
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.



Exodus 29:4
And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.


Here is the one from Apostle Paul;


1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

Yes, and all are shadows of the baptism "immersion" into Christ which is the baptism that saves. The water is just an outward symbol of the inward reality. Yes, all believers should still receive this outward symbol but the water is not one part of a two part recipe for salvation.

 

[KennethC]

Yes, and all are shadows of the baptism "immersion" into Christ which is the baptism that saves. The water is just an outward symbol of the inward reality. Yes, all believers should still receive this outward symbol but the water is not one part of a two part recipe for salvation.

Your right it is one of many things a believer with a true saving faith in the Lord will do.

Read Acts 19:5-6 as Apostle Paul shows there the baptizing in the Lord is the water immersion, and after that was done then he laid his hands on them and the Holy Spirit was given.


1 Corinthians 10:1-2 that I mentioned previously shows the baptized in the cloud (symbolism of the Spirit) and in the sea (symbolism of the water).

Out of the Lord Jesus side when He was pierced by the spear came water and blood both !!!

 

[Magenta]

The converts back then got baptized right away because they understood it was a command !!!

Here us an interesting read on the matter:

http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/9202/was-baptism-practiced-before-christ

 

[AceMichaels]

Here us an interesting read on the matter:

http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/9202/was-baptism-practiced-before-christ

The link didn't work for me. Maybe because its pink! lol I would like to read the article

 

[shotgunner]

The link didn't work for me. Maybe because its pink! lol I would like to read the article

It worked for me but not by clicking it. I highlighted it, copied it and pasted it in my destination bar.

 

[Kaycie]

Baptism doesn't save you. Faith in Christ saves you. Baptism is an outward showing of inward conviction. There are many examples in Scripture of people being saved apart from baptism.

The "born of water" thing, is physical birth. Which is why Christ said, "flesh gives birth to flesh."

Born of water and the Spirit is baptism, a spiritual birth. 1 Peter 3:21

 

[jonathanbchristian]

This is milk. When you are born again spiritual things happen. When you are baptised you obey Christ illustration. As much as Jesus was not being saved at baptism so you are not. As much as it was symbolism with Jesus it is symbolism with you.

 

[mailmandan]

That is not a desperate attempt of Acts 10, 11, and 15 as I will show you;

Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were water baptized (Acts 10:47). Are those who receive the gift of the Holy Spirit still in a lost condition or are they in a saved condition? So the Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17). *See Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. They believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism. Were they saved? YES! This is repentance unto life (Acts 11:18). They repented (changed their minds) and the new direction of this change of mind is they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and were saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). *Lost unbelievers DO NOT receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues.

Acts 11:2
And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

In Acts 10:47 - "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who HAVE received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" The question was asked as to why these Gentiles should not be allowed to be baptized because certain Jews had trouble accepting the fact that God had accepted the Gentiles along with the Jews and proved it by demonstrating that they were already saved and have been accepted into the body of Christ by giving them the Holy Spirit. *The evidence is overwhelming that these Gentles believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, received the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues (which is a spiritual gift that is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved and a part of the body of Christ BEFORE WATER BAPTISM. Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid them from being baptized because they did not accept these Gentiles, but Peter clearly states that SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE. These Gentiles were clearly SAVED BEFORE WATER BAPTISM and the Holy Spirit was proof of this. Praise God!

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ/repentance unto life (Acts 11:17,18) BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). *Crystal clear. You have still shown me nothing except a desperate attempt to get around the truth.

Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Just because there had been disputing does not prove that these Gentiles who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues were still lost in their sins prior to water baptism. Notice "hear the word of the gospel, and believe." Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. *What happened to baptism?

There was disputes and contentions between the Jews on rather the Gentiles received this same right of salvation through the Lord Jesus, and that is why these Gentile believers were given the Holy Spirit first.

They were given the gift of the Holy Spirit first because we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when we BELIEVE the gospel BEFORE water baptism (John 7:38,39; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 19:2; Ephesians 1:13). It truly amazes me to see how much scripture twisting you are willing to do simply to accommodate your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31) as I did before you reach your conclusion about when we are saved and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

As for the last two parts getting baptized into the Lord is when one is immersed into water, notice how in Acts 19:5-6 Apostle Paul had those baptized into the Lord and then after he laid his hands on them did the Holy Spirit come to them.

Paul asked them in verse 2 if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed (not when they were baptized) and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit! They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them (exception, not the rule, just as in Acts 8:16). This verse does not support the false notion that believers do not receive the Holy Spirit until after they are water baptized. This was a transitional period in which confirmation by the apostles was necessary to verify the inclusion of this group of people into the church. Because of the animosity that existed between Jews and Samaritans, it was essential for the Samaritans to receive the Holy Spirit in the presence of the leaders of the Jerusalem church for the purpose of verification and maintaining a unified church. Mormons run with these verses and make the laying on of hands by the elders in their church necessary for them to receive the Holy Spirit. This kind of confusion stems from failing to rightly divide the word of truth.

I can also reverse and pose a question to you;

Can a person always disobey the Lord and still be saved ???

A person who always disobeys the Lord demonstrates they are not saved (1 John 3:8-10). Faith is the root and obedience/good works which follow are the fruit of salvation. No fruit at all/always disobeys the Lord demonstrates that there is no root.

If your answer is yes then I can show you some scriptures that say's disobedience leads to eternal punishment !!!

Why would I say yes to that ridiculous question? That still does not mean that we are saved by works.

If someone came to faith in Christ on their death bed (like the thief on the cross) and was unable to get water baptized, do you believe they will be saved or do you believe they will perish for being unable to get water baptized? *John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he (has not been water baptized? - NO) has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[shotgunner]

How is being immersed in water, being born of water?

It's not. I explained this in a previous post.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

The word and used here is also translated as even elsewhere, same word. In this case even would have been better.

Jesus, when speaking to Nicodemus tells him that he must be born of water, using water as a representation of the Holy Spirit just as he did with the woman at the well, just as Isaiah does in scripture that Nicodemus should be very familiar with. When he sees that Nicodemus doesn't understand, Jesus adds the phrase, even of the spirit for clarity.


Jesus goes on to reinforce this idea with the next thing he says, telling Nicodemus that he isn't talking about flesh because what is born of flesh is only flesh, but the birth he is speaking of is that which is born again of the Spirit of God, which is the spirit of man.

 

[just-me]

It's not. I explained this in a previous post.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

The word and used here is also translated as even elsewhere, same word. In this case even would have been better.

Jesus, when speaking to Nicodemus tells him that he must be born of water, using water as a representation of the Holy Spirit just as he did with the woman at the well, just as Isaiah does in scripture that Nicodemus should be very familiar with. When he sees that Nicodemus doesn't understand, Jesus adds the phrase, even of the spirit for clarity.


Jesus goes on to reinforce this idea with the next thing he says, telling Nicodemus that he isn't talking about flesh because what is born of flesh is only flesh, but the birth he is speaking of is that which is born again of the Spirit of God, which is the spirit of man.

Good post brother!

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? (John 3:10)

 

[wattie]

I believe it because God's word says repentance and baptism comes before the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:5-6.

Those verses do not separate baptism from salvation as you think, because what do all the verses you bring up going to have in common? I bet they all will have the word "believe" in them, and if you see closely by the Lord Jesus own words part of a believer in Him is to be baptized as those who believe do what He said (Luke 6:46-47).

Wrong again about the OT as water was always used in sanctification and Hebrews 9:18-20 and 1 Corinthians 10:1-2 shows clearly that baptism was done in the OT.

Once again also take a close look at Acts 19:5-6 as Apostle Paul shows that baptism in the Lord is the immersion in water, as the Holy Spirit was not given tell after that in verse 6 when he laid his hands on them.

What came out of our Lord Jesus side when He was pierced on the cross, blood, water, or both ??? (John 19:34)


Plus what about my other two questions;

Why when Jesus 12 Apostles were baptizing others during His earthly ministry did He not tell them to stop, and why did they including Paul continue to baptize after His death and ascension if it is not needed ? Why did the Lord command it instead ?

Do you think the Lord would command something to be done if it was worthless or was not needed ???

Not needed?

It is needed.. just not essential to eternal salvation.

Converted, saved first. Baptised by full immersion in water after.

You are tieing commandments to do with obedience to getting eternal salvation.. which is plain as day works salvation.

Eternal salvation is never worked for.. or followed commands to gain. It is given. It has to be given..because we can't get it out of our own doing.

We ourselves..without Jesus are capable of next to nothing spiritually.. only to be able to ask for eternal salvation.

We can't 'get our sins together' or 'clean ourselves up' before getting converted. Only God does that work .. and that at conversion.

So therefore.. obeying commandments after being converted.. like getting baptised.. wasn't our obeying that got us conversion in the first place. So it won't be the obeying that keeps the conversion.

Obeying.. draws us closer to God.. and we have abundant life.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

If you are not born naturally into this world then you are not legally here and if you are born naturally in this world and your body dies then you cannot stay on this planet

Your spirit and soul will leave and your body will return to the earth and that's why you have to be born naturally and be reborn in the spirit.

JESUS came into this world the right way.

 

[KennethC]

Not needed?

It is needed.. just not essential to eternal salvation.

Converted, saved first. Baptised by full immersion in water after.

You are tieing commandments to do with obedience to getting eternal salvation.. which is plain as day works salvation.

Eternal salvation is never worked for.. or followed commands to gain. It is given. It has to be given..because we can't get it out of our own doing.

We ourselves..without Jesus are capable of next to nothing spiritually.. only to be able to ask for eternal salvation.

We can't 'get our sins together' or 'clean ourselves up' before getting converted. Only God does that work .. and that at conversion.

So therefore.. obeying commandments after being converted.. like getting baptised.. wasn't our obeying that got us conversion in the first place. So it won't be the obeying that keeps the conversion.

Obeying.. draws us closer to God.. and we have abundant life.

First you still ignored answering the questions, and second it was the Lord who said those who believe in Him are those who does what He says.

If you do not do what He says then you are not His and therefore do not have eternal life, the walk can not be separated from the belief in the faith as they go hand and hand and the bible shows this.

If you try and separate the two then you are initially saying a person can live however they want and still remained saved, but that is contradictory to what the bible teaches.

 

[KennethC]

Good post brother!

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? (John 3:10)

The question was posed to Nicodemus because he was a Pharisee and in the Mosaic laws water was always used in sanctification process, and one can clearly see that by reading the OT passages as well as the NT scriptures that refer back to them. Water and blood both are part of the process of both covenants !!!

 

[wattie]

First you still ignored answering the questions, and second it was the Lord who said those who believe in Him are those who does what He says.

If you do not do what He says then you are not His and therefore do not have eternal life, the walk can not be separated from the belief in the faith as they go hand and hand and the bible shows this.




If you try and separate the two then you are initially saying a person can live however they want and still remained saved, but that is contradictory to what the bible teaches.

Why when Jesus 12 Apostles were baptizing others during His earthly ministry did He not tell them to stop, and why did they including Paul continue to baptize after His death and ascension if it is not needed ?


A: It is needed.. but not for being given eternal life. It's a symbol of salvation, of what Jesus does in converting someone but isn't the HOW of someone getting converted.

Do you think the Lord would command something to be done if it was worthless or was not needed ???


Same answer..

Baptism by full immersion in water is needed as a symbol of what Jesus does for someone and it is a prerequisite for someone to join a local church. Without baptism.. a believer can't join one of God's churches.

But .. now this is different to Baptism of the Holy Spirit.... that is something else. I don't believe that is attached to eternal salvation being given either.. but is when groups of believers were empowered by the Holy Spirit as they became churches.

 

[shotgunner]

The question was posed to Nicodemus because he was a Pharisee and in the Mosaic laws water was always used in sanctification process, and one can clearly see that by reading the OT passages as well as the NT scriptures that refer back to them. Water and blood both are part of the process of both covenants !!!

Kenneth, the water purification rituals are simply a representation of the perfect which is to come. The water represents the Holy Spirit. To say that water is necessary because the Jews used it, would be like saying the sacrifice of a lamb is necessary because the Jews used it. They are both symbols of the perfection to come.