Bringing things to light

[Jordon]

lol again the word Purgatory is not in the bible. There is no RCC heresy ruling this web site. You on meds? Name one
heresy CC Holds to

I'm not on meds.

The word purgatory whether in the bible or not makes no difference.

The understanding is purge

Hebrews 9:22 states the word purge.

Roman Catholic heresy ruling this website is

We can have the final say in our salvation by our own free will

So can we take the nails out of the cross ourselfs, or must we all carry out cross, as in we must wait for complete purification as in wait until the end of complete sanctification, called glorification

 

[Jordon]

@CS1

The word purge


Hebrews 9:22

King James Version



22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[CS1]

I'm not on meds.

The word purgatory whether in the bible or not makes no difference.

The understanding is purge

Hebrews 9:22 states the word purge.

Roman Catholic heresy ruling this website is

We can have the final say in our salvation by our own free will

So can we take the nails out of the cross ourselfs, or must we all carry out cross, as in we must wait for complete purification as in wait until the end of complete sanctification, called glorification

LOL if in the bible of not?


IF you don't hold to the bible as the word of GOD where did you get the teaching from of Purgatory? If its not supported by the bible its not Biblial and one can't say it is of the Church of God as valid with out Biblical support.


RoBOp you need to look at this guy: Look at his comment about CC here.

"Roman Catholic heresy ruling this website is"

 

[JimiSurvivor]

my faith is reformed, urc church UK.

I love my church I love my people, I dont call myself protessant either. Protestant also means a catholic can be protestant about my faith everyday, which they are knowing it and not knowing it, everyday here.

So what's at question here is extreme radical doctrine of human freewill conscience placing it's self as the final decision over salvation.

And how's it's proven in purgatory

Merely activating the human conscience through conviction does not DETERMINE that an individual will repent of their sin, believe in Christ and surrender their lives to Him. It is only part of the process. Paul did not say godly sorrow is the same thing as repentance, he said Godly sorrow LEADS TO repentance WHICH, in turn, LEADS TO SALVATION:

"…9And now I rejoice, not because you were made sorrowful, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you felt the sorrow that God had intended, and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings REPENTANCE that leads to SALVATION without regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11Consider what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what zeal, what vindication! In every way you have
(2 Corinthians 7:9-11)

Once there was a woman in my Church who would weep profusely whenever Christian music was played. To many it seemed like she was a Mary Magdalene worshiping with tears at the feet of Jesus. What most did not understand is that even while she was doing this she was living in adultery. Her tears might have been a genuine expression of someone who had once known Jesus but was tormented by her compromise with Satan but it was anything but an expression of love for Him.

You alluded to an extreme radical doctrine of human freewill. What is this teaching? When the early [pre-Augustinian] teachers in the Church used the term "free will" they were not we come to Christ WITHOUT the influence of the word and the Spirit. This is a straw man. What they believed is that while we can choose Christ we need much persuasion to us willing.

 

[Jordon]

Merely activating the human conscience through conviction does not DETERMINE that an individual will repent of their sin, believe in Christ and surrender their lives to Him. It is only part of the process. Paul did not say godly sorrow is the same thing as repentance, he said Godly sorrow LEADS TO repentance WHICH, in turn, LEADS TO SALVATION:

"…9And now I rejoice, not because you were made sorrowful, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you felt the sorrow that God had intended, and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings REPENTANCE that leads to SALVATION without regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11Consider what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what zeal, what vindication! In every way you have
(2 Corinthians 7:9-11)

Once there was a woman in my Church who would weep profusely whenever Christian music was played. To many it seemed like she was a Mary Magdalene worshiping with tears at the feet of Jesus. What most did not understand is that even while she was doing this she was living in adultery. Her tears might have been a genuine expression of someone who had once known Jesus but was tormented by her compromise with Satan but it was anything but an expression of love for Him.

You alluded to an extreme radical doctrine of human freewill. What is this teaching? When the early [pre-Augustinian] teachers in the Church used the term "free will" they were not we come to Christ WITHOUT the influence of the word and the Spirit. This is a straw man. What they believed is that while we can choose Christ we need much persuasion to us willing.

your making assumptions

Is the word purge in the bible or not ?

Does his word say the heart gets cleansed of a guilty conscience or not, with the sentiment continually seeking the lord. (Why must you continually seek when saved)

Does his word say here that the conscience it's self get cleaned because it only says the heart gets cleansed.

What binds the conscience in the first place before being saved and after and is a permanent fixture.

Ding ding Mr. Tackling freewill heresy.

Apparently you choose all for yourself

 

[Jordon]

LOL if in the bible of not?


IF you don't hold to the bible as the word of GOD where did you get the teaching from of Purgatory? If its not supported by the bible its not Biblial and one can't say it is of the Church of God as valid with out Biblical support.


RoBOp you need to look at this guy: Look at his comment about CC here.

"Roman Catholic heresy ruling this website is"

lol oh cry all you like, your obviously infected with radical protestant doctrine of seeing that praying for the dead must only be seen as praying for the dead

Is the word purge in the bible or not

 

[JimiSurvivor]

my faith is reformed, urc church UK.

So what's at question here is extreme radical doctrine of human freewill conscience placing it's self as the final decision over salvation.

And how's it's proven in purgatory

You allude to an extreme radical doctrine of human freewill. What is this teaching? When the early [pre-Augustinian] teachers used the term "free will" they were not saying we come to Christ WITHOUT the influence of the Holy Spirit and the word. This is a straw man of what they really believed. What they believed is that, while we can choose Christ, we need much persuasion to make us willing which God provides by giving us the word and the Holy Spirit. The reason we need this persuasion is not because of some INABILITY of the will to choose Christ. It is because, we are so used to ruling our own souls and perceive Christ as a rival to be a rival king. To become a sheep in Christ's flock we must let go of our belief in ourselves and submitting our lives to Christ. This is our first act of faith.

24Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, (as a sheep follows its shepherd) he must deny himself and take up his cross and FOLLOW ME. 25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
(Matthew 16:24-25)
The assumption underlying His invitation is that we can (with the Holy Spirit's aid) deny the old and take up the new by believing in a new master to the point that we follow Him

 

[Jordon]

You allude to an extreme radical doctrine of human freewill. What is this teaching? When the early [pre-Augustinian] teachers used the term "free will" they were not saying we come to Christ WITHOUT the influence of the Holy Spirit and the word. This is a straw man of what they really believed. What they believed is that, while we can choose Christ, we need much persuasion to make us willing which God provides by giving us the word and the Holy Spirit. The reason we need this persuasion is not because of some INABILITY of the will to choose Christ. It is because, we are so used to ruling our own souls and perceive Christ as a rival to be a rival king. To become a sheep in Christ's flock we must let go of our belief in ourselves and submitting our lives to Christ. This is our first act of faith.

24Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, (as a sheep follows its shepherd) he must deny himself and take up his cross and FOLLOW ME. 25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
(Matthew 16:24-25)
The assumption underlying His invitation is that we can (with the Holy Spirit's aid) deny the old and take up the new by believing in a new master to the point that we follow Him

in correct Augustine taught he was saved after he finally heeded the inner calling. Listen Jim I'm not picking a fight. I'm dealing with severe heresesy whilst remaining neutral, not swaying to the left or the right.

On the left we have radical protestant

And on the right we have radical roman cathoilic


And let's say the repulsive argument was all over one sentence, in the Maccabees bible, which states praying for the dead.

Was that possibly a human error that could of been fixed at the time. Instead of millions of people being slaughtered in a bloody onslaught, where by people did actually become dead.

So basically Jim when you play basket ball on the court down here, his word is alive, but in paradise is court is alive.

 

[Karlon]

hi Karlon

This is a topic I need to talk about.

So basically anybody can say they don't believe in purgatory.

And anyone can say its wrong.

And anyone can say they have eradicated purgatory out of there head.

But the truth is there is no way to eradicate purgatory all together.

I repeat the truth is there is no way to eradicate it all Togeather. It's not going to happen.


I want to know what else besides the RCC view of purgatory could purgatory be understood.

Can purgatory be understood in any other way, and does purgatory have to be called purgatory.

For instance does praying with people in paradise have to be seen as purgatory

Does praying with people in paradise have to be seen as those people are dead in paradise.

Thanks for undersranding @CS1
Now maybe @CS1 can answer my other questions

A big question

Why is roman Catholic heresy ruling this website everyday

"no way to eradicate......"? really? i never cogitate on purgatory. have you ever heard of the "powers of your subconscious mind"? retrain your mind & you will learn to act with judgement on programmed ideas especially when they are in line with Jesus. all aspects of recording, pertaining & recalling will be improved. today, in the new testament, Christians are immediately in the presence of our Lord & savior Jesus Christ after passing. there's no "intermediate state". never was. our judgement is by Jesus alone.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

lol oh cry all you like, your obviously infected with radical protestant doctrine of seeing that praying for the dead must only be seen as praying for the dead

Is the word purge in the bible or not

God's work of "purging" us is accomplished through the Holy Spirit who exposes our sinful habits using the firey trials we go through IN THIS LIFE. We find this theme in
Hebrews 12:4-7
In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not take lightly the discipline of the Lord, and do not lose heart when He rebukes you. 6For the Lord DISCIPLINES the one He loves, and He CHASTISES every son He receives. 7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
(Hebrews 12:4-7)

Starting in verse 10 of the same book, the author shifts gears, presenting God not as our Father but, rather, as the Judge warning us:
26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be PUNISHED who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Hebrews 10:26-31)

 

[NightTwister]

YES, you can send prayers to God for your mom.

What's this got to do with Purgatory?

Ask clear questions and get clear answers. Ask confusing questions, get confusing answers or a non answer.

For example.

Can i get more information about HOW prayers for the dead are justified in your church?
YES. Take a look here: https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/prayer-for-the-dead/

Does the Orthodox Church believe in the Purgatory? NO!
That's for Catholics.

In the church we have a service where we pray for the dead. Find an orthodox church near you so you can find out more and ask a priest to put your mother's name if you'd like.
OR, skip the priest altogether and pray to God from your heart about your mother so God can comfort her and so God can keep her and forgive her. Ask God to even give you a sign that your mom is okay.

Again, ask clear questions.

Do you think those prayers for the dead are mainly for them, or for the person who is praying for them?

 

[Jordon]

God's work of "purging" us is accomplished through the Holy Spirit who exposes our sinful habits using the firey trials we go through IN THIS LIFE. We find this theme in
Hebrews 12:4-7
In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not take lightly the discipline of the Lord, and do not lose heart when He rebukes you. 6For the Lord DISCIPLINES the one He loves, and He CHASTISES every son He receives. 7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
(Hebrews 12:4-7)

Starting in verse 10 of the same book, the author shifts gears, presenting God not as our Father but, rather, as the Judge warning us:
26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be PUNISHED who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Hebrews 10:26-31)

Basically Jim

Q1 Is a person actually dead in paradise


Q2

And basically Jim is guilt always apart of the conscience whilst you living and breathing down hear on the basket ball court

And basically Jim if the answer is no Q1 and yes to Q2

Can those simple answer be gained by studying Catholic and protestant professor's with a genuine degree in theology and philosophy,

And then studying his word.

I believe they can Jim.

And basically Jim there are many people believe the sentence in the Maccabees of praying for the dead is a human error.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

in correct Augustine taught he was saved after he finally heeded the inner calling. Listen Jim I'm not picking a fight. I'm dealing with severe heresesy whilst remaining neutral, not swaying to the left or the right.

On the left we have radical protestant

And on the right we have radical roman cathoilic


And let's say the repulsive argument was all over one sentence, in the Maccabees bible, which states praying for the dead.

Was that possibly a human error that could of been fixed at the time. Instead of millions of people being slaughtered in a bloody onslaught, where by people did actually become dead.

So basically Jim when you play basket ball on the court down here, his word is alive, but in paradise is court is alive.

I am not disagreeing with you on every point but the discussion to me is not just about Catholic vs Reformed theology because there were vast differences between "Reformed theology" and that which was taught by the earlier, mostly Greek-speaking ante-Nicene Christians. You went as far as to say "free will" itself is a heresy which would make almost every teacher before Augustine a heretic. However, Augustine is the one who took an extreme view by saying that all things - including every thought, desire and choice of man is predetermined by God. Historically, that is not what the Ante-Nicene Christians believed before Augustine. When we look at the history of the Reformers we find that despite their theology, their character did not bear the marks of Christ. Look at how most of them persecuted and massacred other Christians who did not hold to their belief in infant baptism.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Basically Jim

Q1 Is a person actually dead in paradise


Q2 And basically Jim is guilt always apart of the conscience whilst you living and breathing down hear on the basket ball court

And basically Jim if the answer is no Q1 and yes to Q2 Can those simple answer be gained by studying Catholic and protestant professor's with a genuine degree in theology and philosophy, And then studying his word. I believe they can Jim. And basically Jim there are many people believe the sentence in the Maccabees of praying for the dead is a human error.

Q1: Is a person actually dead in paradise

Well, Paradise is usually considered to be something we enter into after death and some of Jesus parables seem to suggest this.
(Luke 16:20-21). However, I have no strong opinion about it.

Q2 And basically Jim is guilt always apart of the conscience whilst you living and breathing down hear

Paul said our conscience "bears witness" to us about either our guilt or innocence in certain matters:
…14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus,
(Romans 2;14-15)

 

[Jordon]

"no way to eradicate......"? really? i never cogitate on purgatory. have you ever heard of the "powers of your subconscious mind"? retrain your mind & you will learn to act with judgement on programmed ideas especially when they are in line with Jesus. all aspects of recording, pertaining & recalling will be improved. today, in the new testament, Christians are immediately in the presence of our Lord & savior Jesus Christ after passing. there's no "intermediate state". never was. our judgement is by Jesus alone.

I said hi

 

[Jordon]

Q1: Is a person actually dead in paradise

Well, Paradise is usually considered to be something we enter into after death and some of Jesus parables seem to suggest this.
(Luke 16:20-21). However, I have no strong opinion about it.

Q2 And basically Jim is guilt always apart of the conscience whilst you living and breathing down hear

Paul said our conscience "bears witness" to us about either our guilt or innocence in certain matters:
…14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus,
(Romans 2;14-15)

ok Jim

 

[Jordon]

What use is a prayer for the dead ?????


How are they going to hear you

 

[Jordon]

What use is a prayer for the dead ?????


How are they going to hear you

so this passage says the righteous are in a special realm in heaven and are awake not dead.

Answer it say lr says there there conscience still suffer @JimiSurvivor

revalation 6:9-10

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

How can you pray to the dead jim, as here we see there alive ?

 

[Jordon]

so this passage says the righteous are in a special realm in heaven and are awake not dead.

Answer it say lr says there there conscience still suffer @JimiSurvivor

revalation 6:9-10

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

How can you pray to the dead jim, as here we see there alive ?

so basically @CS1 radical protestants at the time of the reformation like you, should have realised the term praying for the dead in the Maccabees bible was a human error

And the problem should have been resolved in house instead of millions of people being killed over a mistake in one sentence.

But yet Roman Catholic still have there council of Trent and we still have radical protestants.

And they still don't get the dangers of free will, as many radical protestants don't even realise there arguing ove a silly monkey who's pen probably ran out of ink

 

[Jordon]

Still no answer @JimiSurvivor from the people wrongly making assumptions of me, do let me explain this then I'm going


revalation 6:9-10

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


So Jim RCC doctrine teach when they pray for people in purification, or purgatory as they put it, that the suffering from people in paradise gets transferred to them, and then they become saints. Which is deciding there own salvation, which is totally weird Jim.

Eerrrr no read revalation it quite clearly says, there still suffering and it quite clearly says there alive.

Anyhow bye Jim.